godless people,

[TheVisitor]

Why bring my name into it when I haven't said "we" in the quote you used?



Personally I fail to see the relevance of your statement, (which is somewhat inaccurate as it's been written anyway). I am a guy on the other side of the world on a computer. Unless you've just created email bombs then I'm as safe as I'm going to ever get. You and your words are hardly a threat to anyone - unless lunacy becomes contagious.

Anyway, glad to see you leaving.

Sorry, I forgot to put a ? at the end of the "who's we" sentence.
It was meant to sugest anom. was looking for support in other athiests.
It was supposed to be sugestive, not stated as a fact, sorry my old friend.
I did include a quote from you if you'll look.

I'll relate a quote I heard from an old fellow I worked with about 25 years ago...
He used to tell me;
"Hear everything you can, but don't can everything you hear"...
I've alway thought that was good advice.

 

[Lerxst]

Empty:

We are leaving the realm of religion per se and just talking about 'diplomacy' now, for lack of a better word. And as with any group, you will find a lot of variation - there are nontheists that have a very short fuse, so to speak, and are not willing to tolerate even the most liberal of religious views: deism, etc. On the other hand we have nontheists such as you (and I) that try to be more accomodating.

To me, it's really just a question of 'you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.' It is about baby steps. Militant atheists are not going to secularize the world overnight, although I'd be happy if they could pull it off. I think if humanity is to shed organized religion it is going to be gradual.

But that's just IMO. I might be wrong. I'm not Harry Seldon.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Empty:

We are leaving the realm of religion per se and just talking about 'diplomacy' now, for lack of a better word. And as with any group, you will find a lot of variation - there are nontheists that have a very short fuse, so to speak, and are not willing to tolerate even the most liberal of religious views: deism, etc. On the other hand we have nontheists such as you (and I) that try to be more accomodating.

To me, it's really just a question of 'you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.' It is about baby steps. Militant atheists are not going to secularize the world overnight, although I'd be happy if they could pull it off. I think if humanity is to shed organized religion it is going to be gradual.

But that's just IMO. I might be wrong. I'm not Harry Seldon.

yeah your right,


but as you obviously know, it is possible to conduct debate and say your " 2 cents" without bieng abusive and insulting others,

you must realsie that it can harm peoples mental health further and send them into a defensive recoil due to early childhoos teachings and mind mapping, many people who claim to have scientific knowledge tend to miss the fact that most religious people were told all of this when they were most subjective "early childhood" and insulting them for there set beliefs will do no good atall,






in my personal opinion, i assumed people would have a little knowledge about the human mind from a psycological standpoint,


early childhood is a very important time for the mind, it is like a sponge, if you are brought into a religious cult and grow up bieng told what is true and what is false, then ofcourse you will come out religious with a set belief system, and people have to realise this, also stop bieng so ignorant and rude to people, when it is usually not there choice or fault that they ended up bieng that way,


peace.

 

[Lerxst]

Yeah, childhood exposure to religion often is important, but it can have the opposite effect too.

I was raised in a cult-like version of Christianity, the Jehovah's Witnesses. I believed what I was told, but I hated it. It made my life miserable, it was restrictive, I hated the idea of this nasty god that they cringe before.

When I was about 12 or 13 I was able to escape it because my folks got divorced and quit attending. I was ecstatic. I plunged right into science and fell in love (my first love was astronomy).

And when I was older my mom told me that I almost died as an infant because I needed a blood transfusion, and according to JW doctrine that is abhorrent. My dad tried to prevent the doctors from doing it, but the state stepped in and saved my life. (I had hemolytic disease of the newborn, which can be fatal).

So I have all kinds of personal reasons to despise organized religion. If my fundamentalist whack-job father would have had his way, I'd likely have died within a few days. I have every reason to be as militantly anti-religion as any atheist on this board.

But I try to follow a secular version of "hate the sin, love the sinner" so to speak. I try to avoid the fallacy of guilt by association. I try to realize that most religious people are decent human beings. I try not to analyze the whole distribution based on the behavior of statistical outliers - one wouldn't do that in analyzing any other data set - why do it with people?

Some here would argue that the existence of the little old lady that simply goes to mass on Sunday, donates to charity, and wouldn't hurt a fly, somehow enables the existence of suicide-bombing fanatics. I don't think that is true, but it is an interesting POV and I have been thinking about it and I'm still trying to find a way to judge it and ascertain if it is really the case. Root causes for human behavior are certainly very complex.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

yeah their are exception,


but people dont ask these questions before insulting others, they dont ask the background and upbringing of the person they are insulting, they could be insulting a child for all they know,

say you were living on an islang that was 3rd world poverty conditions, and you belong to a religious cult, and you live this way untill your middle aged, then you manage to travel to the west in what we call normal society. are theys tupid and deserving of insult? and rudeness? or do they not also deserve respect like any other human.

nobody stops to enquire and ask all of these questions, this is a worldwide forum right? so you can access this site from other countrys like india? and africa?.
so there culture is not like your own, so are they alls tupid because thats how it is where they live?

arent we all just personalitys built up from life experience?


so then i ask again why so harsh and rude? is that logical?


peace.

 

[Anomalous]

Yaaaaeeeks,

I Declare A War Against All Theist, I Will Not Rest Until All Theist Are Eliminated.

- Hitler 2.0

 

[ggazoo]

I've been hovering around these forums for awhile now, and I've found that the big difference between atheists and Christians (besides the obvious) is that atheists go out of their way to try and prove that there is no God, while Christians use their faith - it's all they need.

 

[charles cure]

yeah your right,


but as you obviously know, it is possible to conduct debate and say your " 2 cents" without bieng abusive and insulting others,

you must realsie that it can harm peoples mental health further and send them into a defensive recoil due to early childhoos teachings and mind mapping, many people who claim to have scientific knowledge tend to miss the fact that most religious people were told all of this when they were most subjective "early childhood" and insulting them for there set beliefs will do no good atall,


in my personal opinion, i assumed people would have a little knowledge about the human mind from a psycological standpoint,

early childhood is a very important time for the mind, it is like a sponge, if you are brought into a religious cult and grow up bieng told what is true and what is false, then ofcourse you will come out religious with a set belief system, and people have to realise this, also stop bieng so ignorant and rude to people, when it is usually not there choice or fault that they ended up bieng that way,


peace.

so basically what you are saying is that early childhood development trumps free will or ability to change in adulthood? go back to psychology class pal. early childhood development is important, but your ability to educate yourself and make choices and conduct self-examination is not negated by the effects of your upbringing. it is 100% your choice what to believe when you reach a certain point in your life, unless of course you have a mental disability. the fact that people do not question the ideas presented to them in thier childhood does not add up to "people having no choice". i was raised religious and went to church for some formative years of my childhood, but i questioned it and decided ultimately that it was not something i should believe in. how come i could do that and other people couldnt? theres millions of people out there just like me, and there millions of other religious people who didnt convert until much later in life and didnt have any substantial religious upbringing. so it is not ok for you to just assume that people dont play an active role in what they believe and therefore people should just accept it without challenge. that is ridiculous.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

so i guess you are unnaware of cultism yes?


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I've been hovering around these forums for awhile now, and I've found that the big difference between atheists and Christians (besides the obvious) is that atheists go out of their way to try and prove that there is no God, while Christians use their faith - it's all they need.

certain athiests are obsessed with god, i believe it is a deep fear of the unknown, wich projects into rudeness and insults, lashing out with anger because they are afraid of the void .


personal opinion, it is yet to be dissproved.


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

so basically what you are saying is that early childhood development trumps free will or ability to change in adulthood? go back to psychology class pal. early childhood development is important, but your ability to educate yourself and make choices and conduct self-examination is not negated by the effects of your upbringing. it is 100% your choice what to believe when you reach a certain point in your life, unless of course you have a mental disability. the fact that people do not question the ideas presented to them in thier childhood does not add up to "people having no choice". i was raised religious and went to church for some formative years of my childhood, but i questioned it and decided ultimately that it was not something i should believe in. how come i could do that and other people couldnt? theres millions of people out there just like me, and there millions of other religious people who didnt convert until much later in life and didnt have any substantial religious upbringing. so it is not ok for you to just assume that people dont play an active role in what they believe and therefore people should just accept it without challenge. that is ridiculous.

yes thats all good and well,


but when do you ask all of these questions to religious people before insulting them?


peace.

 

[charles cure]

yes thats all good and well,


but when do you ask all of these questions to religious people before insulting them?


peace.

insulting someone and arguing with them are two different things. if you are debating someone about the existence of god, some point of religious doctrine, the value of organized religion...etc, and they cant come up with any logic in the debate, then it is your prerogative to label them unintelligent or unrealistic as you see fit. im pretty sure none of the atheists/agnostics on this forum go around looking for religious people on the street and insulting them without provocation. thats stupid and a waste of time. but if someone willingly engages in a discussion and fails to contribute anything that even resembles reasoning or realistic factual analysis, then they are opening themselves up to attacks based on the intellectual demonstration that they put forth. i wouldnt whine and cry about some premise i put forth being called stupid, i would continue to argue in its favor to the best of my ability with reasoning, logic, and whatever facts can be found. if you cant do that, and accept relevant criticism (harsh though it may be at times) then you shouldnt be debating religion on the forum.

 

[charles cure]

so i guess you are unnaware of cultism yes?


peace.

how many people do you think are involved in cults? its certainly not anywhere close to a majority of the population, or even a significant minority for that matter. in addition to that, i am friends with a kid who was born and raised in a cult and left it at 17 to pursue his own secular life, in fact, he was disowned by his entire family and threatened with violent reprisals and he still left and is not religious. how do you explain that?

 

[Cris]

Empty,

a) you realy want it to be true so it becomes an obbsession to you, you have to lash out in anger at god, because he dosent exist, and you take it out on the people who so believe with spite and rudeness.

Hmm, can’t quite see how one could be angry at something that doesn’t exist. From experience I can quite understand the frustration many atheists feel when confronted by the irrationality of religious assertions. To many atheists the religious position simply appears entirely stupid and they feel free to express that view.

b) because your trying to convert people and make them feel like you do, tryig to impose your belief system upon them and wash them anouther way,

If someone feels that a particular view is wrong then what is the harm in expressing that concern?

c) because your kinda stupid deep down, because while preaching that its all a load of BS and how its a waste of time, you spend amounts of time debating it with people. basically lowering yourself to what you earlyer described as stupid and nonesense,

While theism is BS and a waste of time there are still many who believe otherwise and need to be appropriately educated so we can have a better world - seems quite a noble position to me.

d) because it fascinates you, and part of you believes in god (or wants to)but your logical brain tells you its BS so you keep searching for loopholes that tell you god exists,

LOL. Atheists do tend to be open minded unlike theists.

e) because you just have nothing better to do

A lot like theists then who preach here, right?

 

[Sarkus]

how many people do you think are involved in cults? its certainly not anywhere close to a majority of the population, or even a significant minority for that matter. in addition to that, i am friends with a kid who was born and raised in a cult and left it at 17 to pursue his own secular life, in fact, he was disowned by his entire family and threatened with violent reprisals and he still left and is not religious. how do you explain that?

How do you differentiate a religion from a "cult"?
Is a religion not merely a cult that has achieved widespread acceptance / tolerance?

 

[charles cure]

How do you differentiate a religion from a "cult"?
Is a religion not merely a cult that has achieved widespread acceptance / tolerance?

thats what i have always thought makes the most difference. i also tend to think of cults as requiring an unrealistic level of personal involvement and devotion to a minority held religious viewpoint.

 

[charles cure]

its right here.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

insulting someone and arguing with them are two different things. if you are debating someone about the existence of god, some point of religious doctrine, the value of organized religion...etc, and they cant come up with any logic in the debate, then it is your prerogative to label them unintelligent or unrealistic as you see fit. im pretty sure none of the atheists/agnostics on this forum go around looking for religious people on the street and insulting them without provocation. thats stupid and a waste of time. but if someone willingly engages in a discussion and fails to contribute anything that even resembles reasoning or realistic factual analysis, then they are opening themselves up to attacks based on the intellectual demonstration that they put forth. i wouldnt whine and cry about some premise i put forth being called stupid, i would continue to argue in its favor to the best of my ability with reasoning, logic, and whatever facts can be found. if you cant do that, and accept relevant criticism (harsh though it may be at times) then you shouldnt be debating religion on the forum.

i agree, im not against people having debates over religion. im just talking about insulting and bieng rude to people because of their views on religion,

peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Empty,

Hmm, can’t quite see how one could be angry at something that doesn’t exist. From experience I can quite understand the frustration many atheists feel when confronted by the irrationality of religious assertions. To many atheists the religious position simply appears entirely stupid and they feel free to express that view.

If someone feels that a particular view is wrong then what is the harm in expressing that concern?

While theism is BS and a waste of time there are still many who believe otherwise and need to be appropriately educated so we can have a better world - seems quite a noble position to me.

LOL. Atheists do tend to be open minded unlike theists.

A lot like theists then who preach here, right?

first of all, thanks for replying to my origonal post in full.

second, i think you were speaking for yourself there? and talking as if i were speaking about atheists in general, if you felt i was pointing the finger at you directly then thats wrong, if people have real debate about religion that is good, what i am against is childish name calling over religion, if you are polite when debating about it, and can keep your emotions under control then i am not talking to you,


thanks for replying, but i was not generalising about athiests. this is about human psycology and how we act socially in debate, nt really a thiest Vs athiest war,


peace.

 

[SnakeLord]

i was not generalising about athiests. this is about human psycology and how we act socially in debate, nt really a thiest Vs athiest war

If that were the case, I can only ask why this is even in the religious section, and why on your very first post you targetted atheists specifically - and went so far as to tell them matter of emptyforceofchi factly that atheists debate with theists because of several erroneous reasons that are indeed more fiction than reality. One such example being:

"part of you believes in god", while another stated:

"because your kinda stupid deep down", which imo is probably that very same childish name calling that you're apparently trying to argue against.

You ignored my first response to you, and you'll probably also ignore this one - but I would just ask that if you have something to say, you at least take the time to respond to the people that reply.