godless people,

to say god did it, yes very simple and easy isnt it, and humans dont liek things to be so simple do we, we like to think some great explanation is needed for the creation of the universe,


we need big scientific theorys to fascinate us,

as a modern intelligent bieng, maybe its hard to believe it possible fpr an explanation so simple to be true?.



the universe must be so complex and extream,


maybe its not, maybe it is that simple, maybe god did it and there is nothing more to explore and explain,?


that wont do though will it, we need mystery or we dont function properly. if we dont have things to wonder about what then?


who knows.

peace.
 
charles cure said:
everybody agrees that extremists are not to be tolerated, but every extremist stands as the capstone of a pyramid held up by "harmless" tolerants and supporters of the belief system whose inherent irrationality allows its doctrines to be taken to such insane extremes to begin with. the only way to get rid of the extremists is to realize that the belief itself is improper, ill informed, unrealistic, and irrational - precisely because it is subjective and thus open to every interpretation from the borders of near non-belief to the absurd destructiveness of terroism.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting perspective, and one that troubles me (from the POV of a nontheist who tries to defend various liberal theists). You might be correct, but I'm not sure how we really determine this. It is one hell of a long slope from Martin Gardner's philosophical deism to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's murderous fanaticism. If we could do a gedanken experiment - suppose all religion and knowledge of religion was wiped off the planet tonight. Then, somehwere in, say, NYC, a single person is given the Unitarian perspective of God. What would happen in x years? Would the idea spread, harmlessly at first, but eventually mutate into various antagonistic extremist sects? It might. In fact, I'm guessing it is pretty certain it would. But is it really the spiritual concepts that are at fault, or its it just our pathetic human nature?
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
first of all im anything but confused about this little matter,

if you were to read my previous posts in full, you will understand that i am also an athiest, and i said this only applys to people who insult religious people and insult god needlessly,


you have jumped the gun assumiong what is not infact true,

many athiests expect people to be religious if they say something like i previously stated in this thread, and dont seem to understand that i dont believe in god a single little bit,


but i dont have to believe in god to see people bieng dissrespectfull without reason,


does it make people feel unneasy seeing a fellow athiest speaking like this or something?


comprehend it. i am an athiest and nothing else, i have never been slightly religious in my entire life, i havent believed in god for a second,


but that dosent make me rude like most athiest extreamists,


and those are who i am addressing in debate about this matter,


peace.
Click to expand...

you know, i just read Sarkus's post, then yours. how come you are so defensive. i found nothing in his post that came off as "assuming" that you were religious or anything. i think he was attempting to challenge your initial premise that there are somehow a bunch of atheist people on here who disrespect and challenge god for no reason other than stubborness. its funny that you got defensive about it in this post, because i think all he did was state his position and say hey maybe your estimation of the problem is wrong. then youve somehow twisted it into him thinking that you are a theist and making some arrogant assumption. im not in love with Sarkus or anything, but your post is sort of an overkill in terms of reacting to all of the things that you read between the lines in his, and i think thats sort of hypocritical on your part possibly.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
to say god did it, yes very simple and easy isnt it, and humans dont liek things to be so simple do we, we like to think some great explanation is needed for the creation of the universe,

we need big scientific theorys to fascinate us,

as a modern intelligent bieng, maybe its hard to believe it possible fpr an explanation so simple to be true?.

the universe must be so complex and extream,

maybe its not, maybe it is that simple, maybe god did it and there is nothing more to explore and explain,?

that wont do though will it, we need mystery or we dont function properly. if we dont have things to wonder about what then?

who knows.
Click to expand...
I hope you realise that the reason that "God did it" is not an acceptable scientific answer is NOT because it is so simple.

Science LOVES simple.
If we could always get simple answers then we would progress our knowledge at an astounding rate.
Occam's Razor even states (simplified here) that the simple should be taken over the complex when there are two valid explanations.

But "God did it" is NOT A SIMPLE ANSWER.
It is an incomplete answer (it does not answer HOW or WHY, for example).
It is the most complex answer you can get - as it introduces an infinite number of unknowns.
So science goes for the simpler answer - the one that is contained within the realm of our own universe.

But if anyone wants to propose, and stop at, the answer of "God did it" then let them, and we'll move on.
 
Lerxst said:
This is an interesting perspective, and one that troubles me (from the POV of a nontheist who tries to defend various liberal theists). You might be correct, but I'm not sure how we really determine this. It is one hell of a long slope from Martin Gardner's philosophical deism to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's murderous fanaticism. If we could do a gedanken experiment - suppose all religion and knowledge of religion was wiped off the planet tonight. Then, somehwere in, say, NYC, a single person is given the Unitarian perspective of God. What would happen in x years? Would the idea spread, harmlessly at first, but eventually mutate into various antagonistic extremist sects? It might. In fact, I'm guessing it is pretty certain it would. But is it really the spiritual concepts that are at fault, or its it just our pathetic human nature?
Click to expand...

what makes religious belief such a difficult matter in my eyes, is precisely what you are talking about here - spiritualism itself, just at face value isnt dangerous. the way i see it, what creates a problem is that eventually the spiritualism becomes intertwined with the doctrine to such an extent that it is impossible to seperate the two.
think of it, there is no need to do a gedanken experiment, because the basics of what you would want to test out actually happened. man is not born with inherent belief in god, it developed somewhere, and the first god-believers probably did believe in something that shared many of the characteristics of unitarian belief. then other people liked the idea because it offered hope and comfort, and they each had their own personal take on what it was that god required from them. the problem however, will always arise when it is determined by you that god wants the same things from you and everyone else. if you are a true believer, at that point you are obligated to attempt to make god's message and requirements known. you do this because you believe it is right and that you will be helping the others who you convert. but not everybody wants to believe as you do, so you are then faced with a choice, leave them alone and do them a disservice by letting them live in their godless world, or FORCE them to believe what you do for their own (and your own) benefit. what is crucial is that it doesnt matter how ridiculous the premise that you want them to believe in or the doctrine that you want them to adhere to is, because you have a built in excuse for why it seems that way - "you cant know gods plan because you are only human" or "you arent meant to understand why god wants this". and all of that is easy to believe if you believe in god because the whole thing is totally lacking in proof and illogical to begin with so if youre inclined to believe on those terms anyway, how can you offer conclusive refutation of anyone elses interpretation of gods will? you cant. and because you cant, as soon as you have two opposing viewpoints, conflict arises, and violence is begotten. i would argue that if you were to do your experiment and you could observe its progress over the course of a couple of centuries, what i described is what would happen. the reason it would happen is because it is an inevitable progression given human nature and the nature of spiritual belief. spiritualism is always eventually entangled with tradition and doctrine given any length of time, and despite the fact that the spiritual core of any religious belief is always a benevolent, comforting, and hopeful thing, the rules and regulations that inevitably follow from it are often arbitrary, discriminatory, and exclusive. this is the process by which religion always overtakes personal spiritualism to produce conflict between groups. it seems like thats the way it has to be given the variables in play.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
to say god did it, yes very simple and easy isnt it, and humans dont liek things to be so simple do we, we like to think some great explanation is needed for the creation of the universe,


we need big scientific theorys to fascinate us,

as a modern intelligent bieng, maybe its hard to believe it possible fpr an explanation so simple to be true?.



the universe must be so complex and extream,


maybe its not, maybe it is that simple, maybe god did it and there is nothing more to explore and explain,?


that wont do though will it, we need mystery or we dont function properly. if we dont have things to wonder about what then?


who knows.

peace.
Click to expand...


i think you are wrong. it has nothing to do with wanting mystery or complexity to exist where it doesnt. scientists go out into the world attempting to discover how and why natural processes work. often, these things are relatively simple and singular when taken in their own right. however, when you realize that they are part of a whole system, you can then begin to measure the effects of their existence or destruction on other actors within the system, and you suddenly see layers and layers of complex interaction within the system of the natural world, which has its own laws, hierarchies, and orders that follow ultimately from logical and observable sources. to understand this and then say "well, despite the fact that we have constructed this understanding of the world using the standards of evidenciary observation and repeatable experimentation; we must assume that the world was created in the simplest way possible, and one that we have no proof for", runs completely against logic and also seems highly unlikely. god exists in the absence of explanation as the hidden hand that moves all life. as we continue to pull back the veil and understand how natural processes actually work however, god shrinks from the scene. the world has revealed itself to be complex, and because of that, we look for an equally complex web of circumstances leading to its creation, because it makes sense. to assume that it is unexplainable is to have no faith in reason or human intelligence. to assume that god did it and we may never know why or how is an illogical oversimplification on the part of those who don't want to understand what could have really happened because they then put themselves at risk of having pinioned their life on a belief in something pointless and non-existant. its that simple, without involving a desire for mystery and epic theories.
 
Interesting. So really, the big question is, what do we do going forward?

I don't see traditional religious belief being abandoned until science/technology can give people what they normally get from religion. If and when we can learn to extend our lifetimes to a significant degree, perhaps that is when we will finally have a sea-change in these matters? Until that happens, religion is not going anywhere. IMO. But I still hope that in the meantime it will move toward moderation.

If it were possible to quantify the transfer function between religion and violence/persecution, etc. over time, would we see a downward trend recently? I'm not really sure. In many ways, Christianity has toned it down over the centuries (and yes, I realize that it didn't tone itself down, but rather was forced to due to the enlightment) and if the trend were to continue perhaps it and Islam will become more innocuous in the centuries ahead.

Where is Harry Seldon when you need him?

(The other problem is that religious fervor can be incited for nonreligious reasons - and I think the situation in the middle east is partly an example of that. If the west had not been fucking with these people because of our interest in their resources there would a lot less extremists and a lot more moderates over there.)
 
Lerxst said:
Interesting. So really, the big question is, what do we do going forward?

I don't see traditional religious belief being abandoned until science/technology can give people what they normally get from religion. If and when we can learn to extend our lifetimes to a significant degree, perhaps that is when we will finally have a sea-change in these matters? Until that happens, religion is not going anywhere. IMO. But I still hope that in the meantime it will move toward moderation.
Click to expand...

i dont think science and technology can give people what they get from religion. science and technology are cold and hard and logical, religious belief is illogical but comforting in the way you can mold it to give you hope in times of despair, strength in times of weakness...etc. people dont need science or technology to give themselves emotional comfort, they just need to learn that they can rely on themselves for strength and hope instead of an anonymous god figure. furthermore, i think people need to realize that the world is what it is, it is not always a place where people die for good reasons, it isnt a place where you will always be safe and comfortable just because you are human, humanity isnt exempt from the wrath and chaos of the natural world, despite our advancements in science and technology. understanding this may be a bit of a dressing down for some people, but humans are still just animals subject to the laws of nature like everything else, whether we have developed the ability to temporarily defy some of them or not. it is arrogant and false to believe that because we are an advanced form of life, that all of a sudden nature should conform to our ideas of fairness or sensibility and that there should be a good reason for every death or an explanation for what seems like senseless destruction of life and property from time to time. in short, we should learn to understand that human life is not particularly special to anyone but us, and though it is sad to think of yourself as just a link in a chain of species; when humanity is finished or replaced by something else, what else could you possibly ever be to the beings that follow?
 
I cannot really argue with any of the basic ideas there that we are just another animal species, this is ture, but to me it is also depressing as hell.

The basic reason why I feel the little bit of affinity for some religious beliefs that I do is because I don't want my consciousness to end. I'm pretty sure it will, I just don't want it to. If science offered me a path for preserving my consciousness indefinitely, until I saw fit to terminate it, then wherefore the need for God?
 
Lerxst said:
I cannot really argue with any of the basic ideas there that we are just another animal species, this is ture, but to me it is also depressing as hell.

The basic reason why I feel the little bit of affinity for some religious beliefs that I do is because I don't want my consciousness to end. I'm pretty sure it will, I just don't want it to. If science offered me a path for preserving my consciousness indefinitely, until I saw fit to terminate it, then wherefore the need for God?
Click to expand...


well, no one wants their consciousness to end really. i guess youre right to an extent there, if you could prolong your life indefinitely through the use of science then god would be eliminated or would at least have been thwarted. i guess i would rather hold out hope that science will eventually provide solutions for life than think that when i die i'm going to live out eternity in disneyland.
 
If and when we can learn to extend our lifetimes to a significant degree, perhaps that is when we will finally have a sea-change in these matters?
Click to expand...

Fortunately science is working towards that goal. Realize that ever since the industrialization of civilization our life expand has increased, we don't longer die from a simple infection that can be inaculated with penicillin, we do survive a simple broken arm/leg alot easier than 200 years ago and the healing process has increased in less time. Do to our technological advancements in medicine. So who is to say, that in 200 years our life span would have doubled, making a 100 year old man seem relatively young.?

BTW. here some research on longetivity.
click

The down side of this, however is religion, they do not accept some of the research being done in order to increase our life span, do to some "ethical" problems that they themselves raise. Such as the "stem cell research" controversies.

Godless
 
EmptyForceOfChi

Atheist and Rationalist (like me) regularly infiltrate Religious forums for a reason.

We know what is wrong with the world, its the human obsession with religion.

Remove religion and we remove most of the difference in humans.

Its our good will and heart that draws us to the religious forums in a hope to convince Theist to give up theirs religion.

Its a question of Blue pill or Red pill, we have already seen how deep the rabit hole goes.

Its our moral obligatory duty to save U all from the Matrix of GOD.
 
charles cure said:
well, no one wants their consciousness to end really. i guess youre right to an extent there, if you could prolong your life indefinitely through the use of science then god would be eliminated or would at least have been thwarted. i guess i would rather hold out hope that science will eventually provide solutions for life than think that when i die i'm going to live out eternity in disneyland.
Click to expand...

Which is why my favorite 'religious' idea of all is the Omega Point Theory of Frank Tipler, as spelled out in his book The Physics of Immortality.

Too bad the science is too wonky and probably wrong.
 
Sarkus said:
I hope you realise that the reason that "God did it" is not an acceptable scientific answer ....
Click to expand...

Whenever they say "God did it" or "God said it", they are actually saying things on behalf of god, I think thats a big insult of god to use god for their selfish purposes.
 
SnakeLord said:
We as humans generally decide how valid something is by the evidence supporting it. That's the reason I have no belief for gods
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The offspring of the serpent, those with the mark of the beast need "evidence"....
Humans don't need evidence.
Humans have a soul that comes from God, live by faith, see reality as it is...not with carnal eyes.
Faith is a revelation, that comes from God to humans.

The world has been repopulated with non-humans. Hybrids on the spiritual level. The true physical hybrids were killed by God long ago.
There is a separation taking place now to destroy the rest.
The Word does the seperating.
There are very few real humans left.
As it was in the days of Noah.

Go ahead and demand your evidence.
Jesus said; I come not to bring peace...but a sword.
That sword is His word, it will do the seperating.
 
TheVisitor said:
The offspring of the serpent, those with the mark of the beast need "evidence"....
Humans don't need evidence.
Humans have a soul that comes from God, live by faith, see reality as it is...not with carnal eyes.
Faith is a revelation, that comes from God to humans.

The world has been repopulated with non-humans. Hybrids on the spiritual level. The true physical hybrids were killed by God long ago.
There is a separation taking place now to destroy the rest.
The Word does the seperating.
There are very few real humans left.
As it was in the days of Noah.

Go ahead and demand your evidence.
Jesus said; I come not to bring peace...but a sword.
That sword is His word, it will do the seperating.
Click to expand...

you have less than nothing intelligent to offer here. how come you just continue to go on and on as if someone cares about your tedious sermonizing? its all bullshit.
 
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