godless people,

[Silas]

Sarkus's post: Chi's point proved in full.

People who endlessly promote blurry videos as proof of alien visitation are stupid and annoyingly irrational. People who believe in "the healing power of crystals" are stupid and annoyingly irrational. People who give psychics and mediums the tiniest benefit of the doubt are not merely stupid, gullible and annoyingly irrational, they are actively promoting the activities of heartless con artists.

Religous people are.... well, some of them have been indoctrinated, but it's not our job to remove the indoctrination. Some of them are reasonable. And some of them simply don't follow the logical consequences of their beliefs - for example what it really means to spend eternity doing nothing but singing praise for Jesus, what it really means if Jesus is the real one-and-only court of appeal prior to condemnation to what amounts to torment greater than all the tortures devised by mankind, applied to the power of a million.

But there's no point in insulting them, or God, or Jesus, simply as a way of trying to make an argumentative point. Some religious people genuinely live every second of their lives with reference to God, as a separate being, or presence in their minds, in their lives. Repeatedly pointing out that they might be fooling themselves is at least rude, and at best, demonstrating severe closemindedness. How do we know? Sometimes they only have our best interest at heart, so why insult them simply because we don't accept their point of view? I do make one exception: where the person demonstrates vile intolerance - of other people, races, religions, sects of their own religion. That needs stamping out. But just saying "You're all going to hell" isn't really what I'm talking about there.

Argue with the religious, by all means. But it's not completely rational to promote only the "objective evidence" point of view. I don't personally find any value in the subjective experience of God, but that's my subjective opinion! Not all answers are to be found only in what everybody can agree on.

 

[Lerxst]

Silas:

A most excellent post above.

I try to use the the secular version of the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' maxim. I don't like many religious ideas and I certainly don't like most religious institutions.

But that does not stop me from having religious friends. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt up front.

A sizeable portion of my classmates in grad school held some religious convictions, and some of them were very gifted and bright folks. To think that one cannot be trained in science and hold spiritual views at the same time is not only idiotic, it is clearly and demonstrably false.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Sounds like this falls under the category of
"If I hold my breath long enough and say it's not true......it won't be"
Your reasoning is pathetic....
What happened to your almighty science based on man's ever expanding understanding.
Your science "ain't spit" to put it in a term your kind might understand.
Science is just man guessing at what those with faith already know.

"A non-exsistant being".....don't make me squirt coffee out my nose laughing.
Your the non-exsistant being.
Your belief proves that.

How is this not insulting to a few million years of human evolution? I think we are allowed to ridicule this person. I am allowed to say he is merely a twatty troll and that I seriously doubt that this person would score above 80 in an IQ test, even if he was allowed to pray to his deity for godly intervention in his IQ test.

 

[Sarkus]

How is this not insulting to a few million years of human evolution? I think we are allowed to ridicule this person. I am allowed to say he is merely a twatty troll and that I seriously doubt that this person would score above 80 in an IQ test, even if he was allowed to pray to his deity for godly intervention in his IQ test.

Here here!

But there's no point in insulting them, or God, or Jesus, simply as a way of trying to make an argumentative point. Some religious people genuinely live every second of their lives with reference to God, as a separate being, or presence in their minds, in their lives. Repeatedly pointing out that they might be fooling themselves is at least rude, and at best, demonstrating severe closemindedness. How do we know? Sometimes they only have our best interest at heart, so why insult them simply because we don't accept their point of view?

I never insult unless truly deserved - and rarely even then.

I am fully tolerant of religious ideas, beliefs, practices etc - but not of rank stupidity and gross ignorance.

I do point out flaws in arguments where I see them - and it would be remiss of me not to.
If someone continues to overlook the same flaw then I will continue to point it out.

If someone provides a reasoned, mannered argument for their beliefs, or for anything else, then they are fully deserving of a coherent and well meaning debate / discussion, and I would hope to be able to involve myself in that. But that will not stop me pointing out flaws in arguments as I see them.

 

[TheVisitor]

Originally Posted by TheVisitor
Your the non-exsistant being.
Your belief proves that. ”

Hmmm - I'm fairly sure that SnakeLord DOES exist - and he could probably provide you with all the evidence one needs.

As for how his "belief proves that" - I am not sure I underestand (a) what his "belief" is; (b) whether he does indeed have a belief; and (c) what it is exactly that this belief is meant to be proving?

Please provide some enlightenment to your words

Ok, first....this doesn't apply to Snakelord or anyone in general, just those who have heard Gods word and refuse to believe.
Calling God a "non-exsistant being" is like saying that to yourself.
God is a spirit, is also the only form of eternal life there is.
This life even at 70 or 80 years is like a vapor and gone, God and His attributes...His children in other words will live on.
In the grand scheme of things or "the big picture", whichever you choose....who is the non-exsistent being?
"A day with god is like a thousand years"
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever...."
If you don't believe in HIm....where will you be in twenty, fourty, sixty years from now...?
And who will be the non-exsistent being then...?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

"A day with god is like a thousand years"

I regularly spend time with people like that. I didn't know they were deities. I thought they were just fucking boring.

 

[Sarkus]

Ok, first....this doesn't apply to Snakelord or anyone in general, just those who have heard Gods word and refuse to believe.

How do we know if we have heard his words or not?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

If you don't believe in HIm....where will you be in twenty, fourty, sixty years from now...?

In hell (if I would be a christian)?

And who will be the non-exsistent being then...?

Dunno, I will be suffering till eternity in hell (if I would be a christian).


-------
try to think before you say something. At least try to get your own believes consistent.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sounds like this falls under the category of
"If I hold my breath long enough and say it's not true......it won't be"

I fail to see how you come to such a conclusion. Something is either true or not regardless to how long a person holds their breath. We as humans generally decide how valid something is by the evidence supporting it. That's the reason I have no belief for gods, mermaids, leprechauns etc. Just because some fool can say a guy in the sky exists because mummy said so, doesn't mean such being exists or is worth considering without anything worthy to support it.

What happened to your almighty science based on man's ever expanding understanding.

Nothing to my knowledge. I fail to see how your statement here is in any way relevant to the statement of mine that you quoted.

Your the non-exsistant being.
Your belief proves that.

Must you descend into gibberish?

Calling God a "non-exsistant being" is like saying that to yourself.

No, it's the same thing as calling leprechauns non existant beings.

 

[Godless]

I personally don't. I realise that an idiot rarely becomes a smart man overnight, and thus realise the futility of trying to make a religious man an atheist.

Ouch!

people who just curse and shun religious people with rude comments. why even bother posting on religious forums

That's where you are wrong, this is not a religious forum, it's a science forum, with a subset on religion. So if you have any scientific evidence to prove a supreme deity, present it!

wouldent you say its logical for religious haters to not post and spend so much time dealing with religious posts?,

Not when they are posting their gibberish in a science forum. I've had some very iteresting debates with intellegent, well thought, and respectable theists, however most seem to be full of it, and totally ingnorant.

a) you realy want it to be true so it becomes an obbsession to you, you have to lash out in anger at god, because he dosent exist, and you take it out on the people who so believe with spite and rudeness.

Bull shit, you should take a nice long look at the prosecution non-believers have had throughtout all of history, we have been burned, jailed, killed, defamed, you name it. Now you ply for simple minded idiots who frequent a science forum?. LOL...

b) because your trying to convert people and make them feel like you do, tryig to impose your belief system upon them and wash them anouther way,

I think snakelord answered that pretty well for most of us. Though I do get a since of pride when a hardcore theist turn atheist compliments us for helping them see different. We have several who changed their irrational views here on Sciforums.

because your kinda stupid deep down, because while preaching that its all a load of BS and how its a waste of time, you spend amounts of time debating it with people. basically lowering yourself to what you earlyer described as stupid and nonesense,

It may be kind of stupid, trying to make an theist see different, but then again a few just bite hard enough to look at their own views from another perspective. It's is however questionable of why a theist comes to a science forum and post their views to be scrutinised by mostly secular people. It's even more doubting when they post in specifically atheist forums. Aren't they trying to convince us, are't they trying to convert us?

because it fascinates you, and part of you believes in god (or wants to)but your logical brain tells you its BS so you keep searching for loopholes that tell you god exists

What is fascinating is people still buy the BS. Even after so many things have happened in the church, like pedophilia, extortion, fraud, Rev Jim Johnes, David Koresh, etc..

because you just have nothing better to do

NOPE!

Because it's entertaining. With every theist that has posted here, since I've been here "apx 5 1/2 years" my atheism has only grown stronger, my convictions to reason, logic, and objectiveness has grown beyond what would have had without participation in these type of forums.

Godless

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52945
perfect example of what I was talking about.
emptyforceofchi:

we arent sick of stupidity, people love stupid shit, thats whyt he movies and entertainment (what we like to view) is all stupid shit ad violent and destructive, if we were sick of stupid shit we would not have bush and blair in power with a currupt democracy running the country, or should i say the world, world domination is what they want global power look they already have taken a good outpost in the middle east, get the oil supply good starting point, and if you cant take over a country by force without huge risk, ie china why not ally with them, i know enough about strategy and warfare to see global domination of resource when i see it, anyways enough about that buisness,

First off, that's not stupid. Ok, some of it is... but you don't have to watch it if you don't want to. And it's FICTION. Nobody says it's true. You don't get people trying to tell you to believe and pray and blah blah.
You're comparing apples and oranges.

would you say its wise to insult people like that for there faith?

No, but we're humans and it sure feels good to do it. lol
sometimes you just gotta express your emotions. Don't keep them bottled up.

i dont think its that respectfull, as you dont liek it when others attack your personal beliefs.

No, it isn't. That's the point (both that it's not respectful, and that others attack our beliefs, even though they're not stupid... at least not like thinking a huge flood covered the whole world and this one, ONE family gathered EVERY SINGLE species in the world and kept them alive for 40 days, etc)

whats so hard about this "i dont agree with you but ok fair enough thats your personal belief"

It is hard when they're incredibly stupid.

especially when people claim to be smart, thent hey result to childish name calling over personal opinions?, its not that wise from my standpoint, (neutral)

they're NOT personal opinions. Evolution for example... evolution is a fact, and when you give people the mountains of evidence many of them are [censored] and just keep doing things that make you want to jump off a plane without a parachute.

im sure some athiest extreamists would be capable of simple debate with structure and politeness,

for there to be a simple debate with structure and politeness, you need two or more participant parties. Personally I only start being rude when they're NOT that. If you keep being consistantly stupid by ignoring what I say or whatever, it just pisses me off.
sarkus:

I never insult unless truly deserved - and rarely even then.

I am fully tolerant of religious ideas, beliefs, practices etc - but not of rank stupidity and gross ignorance.

I do point out flaws in arguments where I see them - and it would be remiss of me not to.
If someone continues to overlook the same flaw then I will continue to point it out.

I agree with what he said.
But there comes a point when I just give up and start being rude. Especially with some of the true idiots i've seen. I mean, people actually BELIEVE that stuff!!!
the visitor:

If you don't believe in HIm....where will you be in twenty, fourty, sixty years from now...?
And who will be the non-exsistent being then...?

no matter how many times you say it's true, it won't make it true.
Believing in something won't make it be true.

 

[Mythbuster]

i believe in myself and my sword,

I love your words men

Watch out theists because this is my BOOM STICK !

 

[charles cure]

and for extream cases of godaphobia,

the people who i just described know who they are, but will not admit to it, and you know your one of these people, if you just started reading my post, and it made you kinda angry and made you want to stop reading it when it got past the Why why why part on about a) b) and reply straight away to try and say im wrong and dissrespect me in someway, without even reading what im saying properly,



peace,

i will admit it. i think people who believe in god are mostly ridiculous about it, if not all the time, then at least at some points in their life or in response to a specific issue. i have met religious people that hate everything from tattoos to blacks to harry potter movies for no reason other than the cloud of religious ignorance under which they were raised. i find that many religious people are devout because they are not well educated or simply because they were brought up to believe by their ignorant parents and never thought to question the foundation or objective morality of their own convictions. they choose to buy into a framework that forces you to feel guilty for things you have done so you can come crawling back to that authority begging for forgiveness, it is passive acceptance of control over your heart and mind. i view organized religion as a form of social control with absolutely no basis in logical ethics or factual evidence, and it bothers me a lot that something like that proliferates so rampantly among humans in societies that claim to be advanced. the current clashes between muslims and jews or muslims and christians effects everyone regardless of religion, the mindless bias of religious-minded legislators in South Dakota against abortion could wind up effecting everyone in the country regardless of whether they believe in god or not. i would rant and rage against religion everyday with every ounce of my strength because it is a source of violence, destruction, and intellectual impoverishment that ultimately effects the world in which i live negatively. theres my reason for it, i hope its ok with you.

 

[charles cure]

Argue with the religious, by all means. But it's not completely rational to promote only the "objective evidence" point of view. I don't personally find any value in the subjective experience of God, but that's my subjective opinion! Not all answers are to be found only in what everybody can agree on.

it actuallyis perfectly rational to promote only the objective evidence point of view. do you want to know why? because objectivity is a standard we set for ourselves in all other things. you do not believe that anything else exists without serious proof. if a guy came up to me on the street and took my hand, and put nothing in it and then said "i just gave you a 100 dollar bill." i wouldnt believe him, and neither would you. the reason you wouldnt is simply, no proof except his word. no OBJECTIVE evidence, just his subjective word. there are a million reasons not to accept this kind of evidence, it could be a scam, he could be mentally unbalanced and dangerous...etc ad nauseum.
so whats the point? why give religion a pass when nothing else known to man is given the same type of latitude? not only that, but religion is important - not some inconsequential and harmless set of eccentricities, but a motivator for wars, intolerance, degradation, murder, racism. sure, everybody agrees that extremists are not to be tolerated, but every extremist stands as the capstone of a pyramid held up by "harmless" tolerants and supporters of the belief system whose inherent irrationality allows its doctrines to be taken to such insane extremes to begin with. the only way to get rid of the extremists is to realize that the belief itself is improper, ill informed, unrealistic, and irrational - precisely because it is subjective and thus open to every interpretation from the borders of near non-belief to the absurd destructiveness of terroism. objective evidence is what the human mind values, what society depends on to defend itself against opportunism, misguided leadership, manipulation of irrational fear, and mass hysteria. why accept anything else? better yet, why not see the nature of religious belief for what it is and credit it accordingly?

 

[KennyJC]

sure, everybody agrees that extremists are not to be tolerated, but every extremist stands as the capstone of a pyramid held up by "harmless" tolerants and supporters of the belief system whose inherent irrationality allows its doctrines to be taken to such insane extremes to begin with.

A fair summary, and I agree with the rest of your posts as well. Religion is something that can't be tolerated wether it's a murderous extremist or merely a moderate who attempts to disguise the true stupidity and twisted morals of religion.

Religion effects us all wether we like it or not. And it's not just in countries far away that suffer the extremes of religious stupidity: I've always been bitter about my religious based schooling which acheived nothing but sectarian violence (between catholic and prodestant schools) and slow my intellectual development. The nerve of these people to force religion onto children is something I don't understand in this day and age.

I can only thank 'God' that his followers did not pollute me with their lies

 

[TheVisitor]

We have several who changed their irrational views here on Sciforums.
----------
Not here, just the opposite - The truth has a ring....the wise will hear it.
To those who want to find meaning to this life.
Go back and read some of my posts. I tried to explain...
There comes a point your just wasting your time,
"casting your pearls before swine"
No posts I've read in weaks really deserve a responce...

 

[charles cure]

We have several who changed their irrational views here on Sciforums.
----------
Not here, just the opposite - The truth has a ring....the wise will hear it.
To those who want to find meaning to this life.
Go back and read some of my posts. I tried to explain...
There comes a point your just wasting your time,
"casting your pearls before swine"
No posts I've read in weaks really deserve a responce...

well this is a post and respond type of place, like it or not, you throw an idea out there and someone is probably going to respond; if not to debate you, then at least to offer their opinion on what you have to say. i mean not everybody here just preaches on like a broken record as you do, some people debate the pros and cons of the philosophy behind religious beliefs.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

round and round we go, interesting no proggress im dissapointed.


religious people cant prove god exists.


i dont believe in god whatsoever, my mind wont allow me to believe soemthing that i have no real knowledge about, i cant be so gullible,


but you can ask for proof knowing your not going to get it,


but i could also ask athiests to prove god dosent exist, and you cant either.


prove there is no god, prove how the universe was created without an eternal energy force using physics? cant can you,



peace.

 

[Sarkus]

but i could also ask athiests to prove god dosent exist, and you cant either.

prove there is no god, prove how the universe was created without an eternal energy force using physics? cant can you,

Firstly, there is never any proof for non-existence.
Secondly, most atheists on this site are, I think, of the kind that merely do not have a belief in God - i.e. the WEAK atheist, and not the STRONG atheists who go so far as to say "God doesn't exist".
So please do not confuse the two.

And as for proving what / who caused / created the universe - that is currently unknown.
I, for one, am not afraid to say: "I don't know."
Nor do I hold a "belief" in any creator - or in anything else where there is no evidence.

To say "God did it" doesn't answer anything.
But science gives us the best means to try and find an answer.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Firstly, there is never any proof for non-existence.
Secondly, most atheists on this site are, I think, of the kind that merely do not have a belief in God - i.e. the WEAK atheist, and not the STRONG atheists who go so far as to say "God doesn't exist".
So please do not confuse the two.

And as for proving what / who caused / created the universe - that is currently unknown.
I, for one, am not afraid to say: "I don't know."
Nor do I hold a "belief" in any creator - or in anything else where there is no evidence.

To say "God did it" doesn't answer anything.
But science gives us the best means to try and find an answer.

first of all im anything but confused about this little matter,

if you were to read my previous posts in full, you will understand that i am also an athiest, and i said this only applys to people who insult religious people and insult god needlessly,


you have jumped the gun assumiong what is not infact true,

many athiests expect people to be religious if they say something like i previously stated in this thread, and dont seem to understand that i dont believe in god a single little bit,


but i dont have to believe in god to see people bieng dissrespectfull without reason,


does it make people feel unneasy seeing a fellow athiest speaking like this or something?


comprehend it. i am an athiest and nothing else, i have never been slightly religious in my entire life, i havent believed in god for a second,


but that dosent make me rude like most athiest extreamists,


and those are who i am addressing in debate about this matter,


peace.