God

GOD IS:

  • CONTROLLER OF THE WORLD.

    Votes: 4 13.8%
  • NOTHING OR A WILD IMAGINATION OF HUMANS

    Votes: 13 44.8%
  • NONE OF THE ABOVE OR CANT SAY

    Votes: 12 41.4%

  • Total voters
    29
one word- EVOLUTION. and though we have not worked everything out in this theory the basics are - you change and always from worse to better. so no wonder tht after ~200M of evolution (birds evolved frm dinosaurs) eagle has finally achieved good eyesight.
why to seek a misterious creator, when the world we live in is wondorous by itself. it shapes itself, it makes itself, it changes. why do you need smone to govern it. Do you feel more confident tht there is some higher being tht will sort out all the troubles and take care of you and everyone else if things get really bad? don't you trust yourself?
 
Originally posted by Hoth

If God is infinite, we must all be a part of God.

True I have stated this many times. We are all part of universe and life. we are gods (well ok, I'm actually an avatar of one god [won't tell you which;) ]).
 
Originally posted by Hoth
[
If God is infinite, we must all be a part of God. Therefore, I'm a part of God and you're a part of God. Yet, I don't know what you're thinking. Thus, one part of God is unaware of another part of God. Poof, there goes the "all-knowing" part... and once you lose that you also lose the all-powerful aspect. If it’s neither omniscient nor omnipotent, that’s probably not your concept of a god… so he’s dead. ;) [/B]


Seems like you are in rush to finish this arugment way too fast. Not yet! please wait untill I post more. Bfore jumping to your assumptions.


"" Sadly, most of my knowledge of Islamic philosophy comes from fiction, mainly one Quiet, Please episode. From that though, I gather Islam is deterministic. The universe is pre-determined, we're all actors in the script... and God is the playwright. If this is the correct interpretation... well, although I'm undecided on determinism I certainly dispute the authorship of the script ""

Now since you make this statement I like to see your proof or source of your knowledge. Please don't give your opinions, Give some solid evidence of your claims. I hope I am not asking too much.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Avatar


True I have stated this many times. We are all part of universe and life. we are gods (well ok, I'm actually an avatar of one god [won't tell you which;) ]).


I agree with you there too.
 
Originally posted by Avatar
True I have stated this many times. We are all part of universe and life. we are gods (well ok, I'm actually an avatar of one god [won't tell you which;) ]).

Ok, if you call the universe we’re part of a god, it can be an infinite god. However, if we're gods we're not omniscient or omnipotent gods. We, as parts of the universe, don’t have knowledge of everything else in other parts of the universe… so it’s not omniscient.
 
Originally posted by Markx
"" Sadly, most of my knowledge of Islamic philosophy comes from fiction, mainly one Quiet, Please episode. From that though, I gather Islam is deterministic. The universe is pre-determined, we're all actors in the script... and God is the playwright. If this is the correct interpretation... well, although I'm undecided on determinism I certainly dispute the authorship of the script ""

Now since you make this statement I like to see your proof or source of your knowledge. Please don't give your opinions, Give some solid evidence of your claims. I hope I am not asking too much.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I made no claim, it was more of a question. Is it deterministic or not?

Here's what I drew the question from though.
 
lets see

It may answer some of your questions hoth since you seems to try to make a point in your previous post,



The Relativity of Time and the Reality of Fate

Everything related below will demonstrates that a "three-dimensional space" does not exist in reality, that it is a prejudice completely inspired by perceptions and that one leads one’s whole life in "spacelessness". To assert the contrary would be to hold a superstitious belief removed from reason and scientific truth, for there is no valid proof of the existence of a three-dimensional material world.

This fact refutes the primary assumption of the materialist philosophy that underlies evolutionary theory. This is the assumption that matter is absolute and eternal. The second assumption upon which the materialistic philosophy rests is the supposition that time is absolute and eternal. This is as superstitious as the first one.


The Perception of Time

The perception we call time is, in fact, a method by which one moment is compared to another. We can explain this with an example. For instance, when a person taps an object, he hears a particular sound. When he taps the same object five minutes later, he hears another sound. The person perceives that there is an interval between the first sound and the second and he calls this interval "time". Yet at the time he hears the second sound, the first sound he heard is no more than an imagination in his mind. It is merely a bit of information in his memory. The person formulates the perception of "time" by comparing the moment in which he lives with what he has in his memory. If this comparison is not made, neither there can be perception of time.

Similarly, a person makes a comparison when he sees someone entering a room through its door and sitting in an armchair in the middle of the room. By the time this person sits in the armchair, the images related to the moments he opens the door, walks into the room, and makes his way to the armchair are compiled as bits of information in the brain. The perception of time occurs when one compares the man sitting on the armchair with those bits of information he has.

In brief, time comes to exist as a result of the comparison made between some illusions stored in the brain. If man did not have memory, then his brain would not be making such interpretations and therefore the perception of time would never have been formed. The reason why one determines himself to be thirty years old is only because he has accumulated information pertaining to those thirty years in his mind. If his memory did not exist, then he would not be thinking of the existence of such a preceding period of time and he would only be experiencing the single "moment" he was living in.


The Scientific Explanation of Timelessness

Let us try to clarify the subject by quoting explanations by various scientists and scholars on the subject. Regarding the subject of time flowing backwards, the famous intellectual and Nobel laureate professor of genetics, Francois Jacob, states the following in his book Le Jeu de Possibles (The Possible and the Actual):

Films played backwards, make it possible for us to imagine a world in which time flows backwards. A world in which milk separates itself from the coffee and jumps out of the cup to reach the milk-pan; a world in which light rays are emitted from the walls to be collected in a trap (gravity center) instead of gushing out from a light source; a world in which a stone slopes to the palm of a man by the astonishing cooperation of innumerable drops of water making the stone possible to jump out of water. Yet, in such a world in which time has such opposite features, the processes of our brain and the way our memory compiles information, would similarly be functioning backwards. The same is true for the past and future and the world will appear to us exactly as it currently appears. ( Francois Jacob, Le Jeu des Possibles, University of Washington Press, 1982, p. 111).

Since our brain is accustomed to a certain sequence of events, the world operates not as it is related above and we assume that time always flows forward. However, this is a decision reached in the brain and therefore is completely relative. In reality, we can never know how time flows or even whether it flows or not. This is an indication of the fact that time is not an absolute fact but just a sort of perception.

The relativity of time is a fact also verified by the most important physicist of the 20th century, Albert Einstein. Lincoln Barnett, writes in his book The Universe and Dr. Einstein:

" Along with absolute space, Einstein discarded the concept of absolute time-of a steady, unvarying inexorable universal time flow, streaming from the infinite past to the infinite future. Much of the obscurity that has surrounded the Theory of Relativity stems from man's reluctance to recognize that sense of time, like sense of color, is a form of perception. Just as space is simply a possible order of material objects, so time is simply a possible order of events. The subjectivity of time is best explained in Einstein's own words. "The experiences of an individual" he says, "appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criterion of 'earlier' and 'later'. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time. This in itself is not measurable. I can, indeed, associate numbers with the events, in such a way that a greater number is associated with the later event than with an earlier one.( Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, William Sloane Associate, New York, 1948, pp. 39-40)".

Einstein himself pointed out, as quoted from Barnett’s book: "space and time are forms of intuition, which can no more be divorced from consciousness than can our concepts of color, shape, or size.
" According to the Theory of General Relativity: "time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it." ( Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 12).

Since time consists of perception, it depends entirely on the perceiver and is therefore relative.
The speed at which time flows differs according to the references we use to measure it because there is no natural clock in the human body to indicate precisely how fast time passes. As Lincoln Barnett wrote:
"Just as there is no such thing as color without an eye to discern it, so an instant or an hour or a day is nothing without an event to mark it." ( Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 40).

The relativity of time is plainly experienced in dreams. Although what we see in our dream seems to last for hours, in fact, it only lasts for a few minutes, and even a few seconds.

Let us think on an example to clarify the subject further. Let us assume that we were put into a room with a single window that was specifically designed and we were kept there for a certain period of time. Let there be a clock in the room by which we can see the amount of time that has passed. At the same time, let it be that we see from the room’s window the sun setting and rising at certain intervals. A few days later, the answer we would give to the question about the amount of time we spent in the room would be based both on the information we had collected by looking at the clock from time to time and on the computation we had done by referring to how many times the sun set and rose. For example, we estimate that we had spent three days in the room. However, if the person who put us in that room comes up to us and says that we spent only two days in the room and that the sun we had been seeing from the window was falsely produced by a simulation machine and that the clock in the room was especially regulated to work faster, then the calculation we had done would bear no meaning.


This example confirms that the information we have about the rate of the passage of time is based on relative references. The relativity of the time is a scientific fact also proven by scientific methodology. Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity maintains that the speed of time changes depending on the speed of the object and its distance from the centre of gravity. As speed increases, time is shortened, compressed; and slows down as if it comes to the point of "stopping".

Let us explain this with an example given by Einstein himself. Imagine two twins, one of whom stays on earth while the other goes travelling in space at a speed close to the speed of light. When he comes back, the traveller will see that his brother has grown much older than he has. The reason is that time flows much slower for the person who travels at speeds near the speed of light. If the same example is applied to a space-travelling father and his earth-bound son, if the father was 27 years old when he set out and his son 3; when the father comes back to the earth 30 years later (earth time), the son will be 33 years old but his father will be only 30. ( Paul Strathern, The Big Idea: Einstein and Relativity, Arrow Books, 1997, p. 57.

It should be pointed out that this relativity of time is caused not by the slowing down or running fast of clocks or the slow running of a mechanical spring. It is rather the result of the differentiated operation periods of the entire material system which goes as deep as sub-atomic particles. In other words, the shortening of time is not like acting in a slow-motion picture for the person experiencing it. In such a setting where time shortens, one’s heartbeats, cell replications, and brain functions, and so on all operate slower than those of the slower-moving person on Earth. The person goes on with his daily life and does not notice the shortening of time at all. Indeed the shortening does not even become apparent until the comparison is made.

The conclusion to which we are led by the findings of modern science is that time is not an absolute fact as supposed by materialists, but only a relative perception. What is more interesting is that this fact, undiscovered until the 20th century by science, was imparted to mankind in the Qur’an 14 centuries ago. There are various references in the Qur’an to the relativity of time. In some verses, it is indicated that people perceive time differently and that sometimes people can perceive a very short period of time as a very lengthy one. The following conversation of people held during their judgement in the Hereafter is a good example of this:
He will say:
"What number of years did ye stay on earth?" They will say: "We stayed a day or part of a day: but ask those who keep account." He will say: "Ye stayed not but a little,- if ye had only known!" (Surat al-Mumenoon, 112-114)

In some other verses it is stated that time may flow at different paces in different settings:

Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. (Surat al-Hajj, 47)

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years. (Surat al-Maarij, 4)

These verses are all manifest expressions of the relativity of time. The fact that this result only recently understood by science in the 20th century was communicated to man 1,400 years ago by the Qur’an is an indication of the revelation of the Qur’an by Allah, Who encompasses the whole time and space.


Destiny

This relativity of time clears up a very important matter. The relativity is so variable that a period of time appearing billions of years’ duration to us, may last only a second in another dimension. Moreover, an enormous period of time extending from the world’s beginning to its end may not even last a second but just an instant in another dimension.


This is the very essence of the concept of destiny- a concept that is not well understood by most people, especially materialists, who deny it completely. Destiny is Allah’s perfect knowledge of all events past or future. A majority of people question how Allah can already know events that have not yet been experienced and this leads them to fail in understanding the authenticity of destiny. However, "events not yet experienced" are not yet experienced only for us. Allah is not bound by time or space for He Himself has created them. For this reason, the past, the future, and the present are all the same to Allah; for Him, everything has already taken place and finished.

Lincoln Barnett explains how the Theory of General Relativity leads to this fact in The Universe and Dr. Einstein: According to Barnett, the universe can be "encompassed in its entire majesty only by a cosmic intellect". ( Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 67).

The will that Barnett calls "the cosmic intellect" is the wisdom and knowledge of Allah, Who prevails over the entire universe. Just as we easily see a ruler’s beginning, middle, and end, and all the units in between as a whole, Allah knows the time we are subjected to like a single moment right from its beginning to the end. People experience incidents only when their time comes and they witness the fate Allah has created for them.

It is also important to draw attention to the shallowness of the distorted understanding of destiny prevalent in society. This distorted conviction of fate holds a superstitious belief that Allah has determined a "destiny" for every man but that these destinies can sometimes be changed by people. For instance, for a patient who returns from death’s door people make superficial statements like "He defeated his destiny". Yet, no one is able to change his destiny. The person who turns from death’s door does not die because he is destined not to die then. It is again the destiny of those people who deceive themselves by saying "I defeated my destiny" to say so and maintain such a mindset.
Destiny is the eternal knowledge of Allah and for Allah, Who knows time like a single moment and Who prevails over the whole time and space, everything is determined and finished in a destiny. We also understand from what is related in the Qur’an that time is one for Allah: some incidents that appear to happen to us in the future are related in the Qur’an in such a way that they already took place long before. For instance, the verses that describe the account that people are to give to Allah in the hereafter are related as events which already occurred long ago:
And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting! And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged... And those who disbelieve are driven unto hell in troops... And those who disbelieve are driven unto hell in troops..." (Surat az-Zumar, 68-74)

As may be seen, occurrences that are going to take place after our death (from our point of view) are related as already experienced and past events in the Qur’an. Allah is not bound by the relative time frame that we are confined in. Allah has willed these things in timelessness: people have already performed them and all these events have been lived through and ended. It is imparted in the verse below that every event, be it big or small, is within the knowledge of Allah and recorded in a book:
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,-

and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record. (Surah Jonah, 61)


If one thinks deeper in light of all that is said here, he is sure to realise in his own soul this astounding and extraordinary situation: that all events transpiring on earth are merely an illusion.


The Details that Materialists Have Difficulty in Comprehending

The issues discussed in this chapter, namely the truth underlying matter, timelessness, and spacelessness, are indeed extremely clear. As expressed before, these are absolutely not any sort of a philosophy or a way of thought, but crystal-clear truths impossible to deny. In addition to its being a technical reality, the rational and logical evidence also admits no other alternatives on this issue: the universe is an illusory entirety with all the matter composing it and all the people living on it. It is a collection of perceptions.

Materialists have a hard time in understanding this issue. For instance, if we return to Politzer’s bus example: although Politzer technically knew that he could not step out of his perceptions he could only admit it for certain cases. That is, for Politzer, events take place in the brain until the bus crash, but as soon as the bus crash takes place, things go out of the brain and gain a physical reality. The logical defect at this point is very clear: Politzer has made the same mistake as the materialist philosopher Johnson who said "I hit the stone, my foot hurts, therefore it exists" and could not understand that the shock felt after bus impact was in fact a mere perception as well.
However, being unbiased would be enough to understand this subject. Lincoln Barnett informs that this subject was "discerned" by some scientists:

Along with philosophers' reduction of all objective reality to a shadow-world of perceptions, scientists have become aware of the alarming limitations of man's senses.( Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p.12).

These statements point at a very important fact: matter’s lack of any physical reality alarms materialists who hold matter to be an absolute thing. For true believers, the case is just the opposite: people of faith become very glad when they have perceived the true nature of the world because this reality is the key to all questions. With this key, all secrets are unlocked. One comes to easily understand many issues that he previously had difficulty in understanding. As said before, the questions of death, paradise, hell, the hereafter, changing dimensions, and human such as "Where is Allah?", "What was before Allah?", "Who created Allah?", "How long will the life in cemetery last?", "Where are heaven and hell?", and "Where do heaven and hell currently exist?" will be easily answered because it will be understood with what kind of a system Allah created the entire universe from nothingness. So much so that, with this secret, the questions of "when", and "where" become meaningless because there will be no time and no place left. When spacelessness is comprehended, it will be understood that hell, heaven and earth are all actually at the same place. If timelessness is understood, it will be understood that everything takes place at a single moment: nothing is waited for and time does not go by, because everything has already happened and finished.

With this secret, another very important reality mentioned in the Quran is unveiled: the fact that

"Allah is nearer to man than his jugular vein" (Surah Qaf, 16).

As everybody knows, the jugular vein is inside the body. What could be nearer to a person than his inside? This situation can be easily explained by the reality of spacelessness. This verse can also be much better comprehended by understanding this secret.
As explained before, the only absolute being is Allah. All other things are but the reflections of Allah in the form of shadow beings. Allah sees and knows man with the five senses and with all other senses. Whithersoever we turn, there is the presence of Allah.

As may be clearly seen, the great secret revealed in this book is the key to all things. As Lincoln Barnett stated, this is the reason for the fears of materialists. The primitiveness of their own philosophy and the ignorance of their point of view are bared for all to see. They are also aware that if the true nature of matter is known by people in general, there will be no ground left on which they can rationalise their views. There can be no other explanation for the extreme panic and opposition that they display about such a certain fact.


I don't know about you guys but I find it very interesting.

laters.
 
I do also, and I also feel swayed by it somewhat, please keep the information coming :}
 
Marx...

Interesting non-sequiturs, however an entity can not be omnipotent, and know all time, do to the fact that if an entity did, then our destiny is pre-determined, therefore not allowing "free will".

The assumption that Alla, knows our future is in constract to the fact of free will, if an entity knows of an outcome of an individuals decision that that decision must of been pre-determined; leaving free will to be only a myth.

Some of the scientific yargon you came up with may in fact be true, however you leaving one small fact out. What about the Alla? How was it created? who created? what made it omnipotent? Where did it come from?

Did Alla, just exist from nothing? If the story of Alla is true, then it also is a demon of a sort, by having so much violence, in this world to be allowed, somewhat the same as the Christian god.

Overall your post was interesting to read, however I don't buy the notion that an entity can possess the knowledge of future events.

For instance if Alla were a fact, how come are there so many other religions? how come such individuals such as atheists allowed to exist? Oh!! wait I gather the answer of Alla, how about have some of it's followers run into buildings with airplanes in order to start a "jihad" Yea, this will convince us of Alla's power's of destroying the infedels. Correct?
 
Markx, I basically agree about time, which is why my explanation for the continuity of self (some thread a week or so back) is as a 4 dimensional solid. Time is the illusion caused by a 3 dimensional perspective in a 4 dimensional world. It's not any different than the other dimensions in nature, it's just a 4th dimension that can touch everything in the 3 we see on all sides. Time as illusion does imply a sort of theoretical determinism. Not a very strong determinism since nothing can act or think in the 4 dimensional sense in order to observe. Everything in the 4-D world is static, no motion. Our limited 3-D perspective is what allows us to think... or have the illusion of it you might say from a theoretical objective perspective.

As far as the infinite nature of time which you're disputing... well, the nature of it as the 4th dimension pretty much shows that it's infinite just as the 3rd dimension is (and the 2nd), but let me further demonstrate it in both directions anyway. First, going forward it should be easy to see that the universe can have less and less motion, but the moment at which there is no motion can never arrive. Time is motion, so the motion can get infinitesimally slow but there's always another infinitesimal moment ahead you can move in which it's infinitesimally less motion but still more than none.

Looking at the beginning of time, I'll just show Steven Hawking's basic idea of time, which is of course similar to what I already said for forward:

The big bang is the theoretical origin of time, lets say. Call it 0. Thus, the past is defined as the set (0, 1] where 1 is the current moment. The set notation shows that 0 is not in the set but 1 is in the set, as are all the numbers between 0 and 1. For any number you pick in the set, I can demonstrate to you that there is always an earlier number. Pick one over infinity, and I'll pick one over infinity plus one in order to show that there was a previous moment in time to the one you mention. That is why time is infinite.


The religion part, of course, is all extraneous useless junk to me that only moves the location of problems and makes them somewhat harder to ponder (which is of course why people use religion to escape pondering it), without solving anything whatsoever. The universe is a ball of logic, the fact that we can't understand it doesn't mean there's a being that can. It's quite arrogant to extrapolate from our own awareness of self and type of thought to say that there's an infinite being that thinks and is aware.

If you argue something like Spinoza's theory of natural universe = god, that may work, but it leads to very different conclusions about the nature of god.

Also, if comments about materialists were supposed to mean me, materialists don't like me. I make some logical distinctions involving unobservable things that materialism just wouldn't accept.

What is more interesting is that this fact, undiscovered until the 20th century by science, was imparted to mankind in the Qur’an 14 centuries ago. There are various references in the Qur’an to the relativity of time.

Now if it included forumulas explaining relativity precicely, I'd be impressed. All that you quote, however, is just simple and vague. Everyone knows that to something eternal what seems like a long time to us would be a short time. Even ancient Greeks made time a much less constant thing for their gods than for humans.
 
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Originally posted by Godless
For instance if Alla were a fact, how come are there so many other religions? how come such individuals such as atheists allowed to exist? Oh!! wait I gather the answer of Alla, how about have some of it's followers run into buildings with airplanes in order to start a "jihad" Yea, this will convince us of Alla's power's of destroying the infedels. Correct?

This is just what I've heard, but I believe there's a specific rule in the Qur’an which says that someone being of another religion is not justification to kill them. To declare a jihad the argument must be made that the other group is threatening Islamic people or their right to worship Allah. And even in a jihad, I believe there are supposed to be rules of not killing innocent civilians who are not posing a threat.

Of course markx or Ismu or someone else who's actually read the Qur’an will have to verify this.
 
Markx, Please correct me if i am wrong with what i assum here while i answer godless's question
nteresting non-sequiturs, however an entity can not be omnipotent, and know all time, do to the fact that if an entity did, then our destiny is pre-determined, therefore not allowing "free will".
Now godless, i am not sure if muslims beleive they have free will because of the whole destiny thing, again i am stipulating based on what markx is saying so please take this at face value
Some of the scientific yargon you came up with may in fact be true, however you leaving one small fact out. What about the Alla? How was it created? who created? what made it omnipotent? Where did it come from?
He said that allah is not like any of us, and since we are mortal, or temporal is tghe word i beleive he used, then allah must be eternal, have no beginning or end.
Did Alla, just exist from nothing? If the story of Alla is true, then it also is a demon of a sort, by having so much violence, in this world to be allowed, somewhat the same as the Christian god.
I dont beleive that it has been mentioned that allah is perfectly benevolent yet... as such the christian god seems to have to be.

Please correct me if i am wrong on ANY of this markx, and please continue the information
 
Re: Marx...

I hope I can answer Godless's questions also. Hoth you are correct about what you said. Quran never said to kill any one innocent. Quran never said to kill women or childern or even elderly even when Muslims are in war.
Now since our western world showed us twisted picture of Islam, However reality is totaly different. Now I know majority believe in what CNN tells us. Jihad is nto what you saw on TV, Planes flying into buildings, that's a "kabira sin" means bigest sin, and then on top of that they killed innocents. Sucide is forbiden. But you can believe what ever you like to believe but please don't blame the religion on that. Islam is not the name of the person or country. It is a religion. There are good and bad in every religion but if you like to paint every one with same brush, then its ok with me.


Now let me get back to your second point,

" For instance if Alla were a fact, how come are there so many other religions? how come such individuals such as atheists allowed to exist? "

You are missing the picutre here, If every one would follow the same religion and there won't be any other religions, What is the purpose of life then?? Every one would be rewarded with heaven all good no bad and no middle grounds, Does it make sense to you? Does it sound logical. NO! it does not. There is purpose of all of us beeing here. You see Islam and Quran says message of all the prophets and religons was same it was men who changed it. This will start another debate but let me give just the little idea, Quran said message given through all the prophets was same, Worship one God.
I am glad at least you are better then chrsitans at least you question not jusst blindly follow. Quran said it clear words, that one need to strugle to find truth and it give open invitations to people off all faiths to see the signs of his creation in our every day lifeand think about it. Unlike other relgions it gives people very broad idea of life.

Hoth, Yes muslism do believe that destiny is pre determind, but how do they feel about it I don't know. I personaly feel that even if it is predetermind I have free will, I can chose whats good or bad for me, But then you can say it is predteremind and I am not doing any thing against Allah's will, so the answer is yes every thing has his will. Now when people ask why people die and why wars occurs why God don't do anything for disasters or he causes disasters, I think it is simply stupid. So in other words one wants to live in a Perfect world, where no one dies, no wars, no disasters?? This is just simply stupid. If you only think about it with open mind it will make more sense. It is all circle of life. Quran states this world is like a test for Humans, you do good you get good results in the end you do bad you get bad results, Allah gave the book of guidence, one can read Bible, Quran or Torah and decide what he wants.


Hockeywings, You did explain it well. Thanks. And yes thats what I meant.
 
Maybe I am not clear enough...

Godless,
Here is something that might help you understand about what I was trying to tell you.


Our On-Going Test



Nothing on earth is created in vain, but rather with wisdom. Understanding this fact depends on the wisdom of people themselves. One whose faith and consequently whose wisdom and prudence increase, will happen to grasp this reasoning much better in time.

One of the most important precepts is that we are being tested throughout our whole lives. Allah tests our sincerity and our faith on different occasions. He may give favours to test whether we are grateful to Him or not. He may create difficulties, for us, to reveal whether we behave with patience or not: “Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. To Us you will be returned.” (Surat al-Anbiya, 21:35)

We are to be tested in various ways. This is explained in the Qur’an in the verse below:

“Be sure we shall test you with fear and hunger, someloss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere.” (Surat al-Baqara, 2:155)

Our lives have indeed been planned with the mystery of our being tested. First of all, we are being tested in our physical beings. The Qur’an states that “Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts of) hearing and sight.” (Surat al-Insan, 76:2). Consequently, everything we hear and see is actually a part of the test. In all kinds of situations, we will be tested to see whether we behave in accordance with the Qur’an or with our own vain desires.

Allah tests the steadfastness of the believers with various difficulties. One of the most important of these is the oppression of the believers by the unbelievers. All these misdeeds, like verbal attacks, mocking, physical oppression and even torture and murder attempts, are only a means of trial for the believers. In one of the verses; it is said:

“You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if you persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.” (Surat Aal-e-Imran, 3:186)



The most important point to comprehend is that all of these deprivations and misadventures are created by Allah as a special kind of test. One who does notunderstand this will become very superficial. The Qur’an cites a pertinent tale of certain Jews.



“Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath, their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We made a trial for them, for they were given to transgression.” (Surat al-A’raf, 7:163)



Only the individual who has wisdom can realize that he is being tested, and can succeed in these tests by again using his wisdom. Therefore, a believer should not forget that he is being tested throughout his life. These tests cannot be passed or the heaven cannot be attained simply by saying ‘I believe’.



“Do men think that they will be left alone on saying ‘We believe’, and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.” (Surat al-Ankaboot, 29:2-3)



And in another verse Allah says:



“Did you think that you would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (in His Cause) and remained steadfast?” (Surat Aal-e-Imran, 3:142)



I hope it helps. This is going to be interesting. I will post more on Concept of Matter according to Quran later in the nite.
Laters.
 
Tests imply free will... there's no point in doing a test if the outcome is already certain. Reconciling that with determinism is complicated. There are tests, you have choices, and you're told you should try to do well in the tests... but god already knows what score you got on the exam before you take it.

Since god is outside time yet the universe has to be a part of god somehow, maybe you could think of the universe as being a part of your god's thought process. God thinks to himself "Gee, if I created a bunch of intelligent creatures and put them through a series of tests, what would the result be?" The thought process is the 4-D universe, already complete with his answers, and as 3-D creatures we'd be parts of the simulation. That's why there would be tests for us even though god knows the answers already -- because we're part of the thought that gave god the answers.

One interesting consequence of that is god wouldn't really be fully controlling the universe, the universe would be playing itself out using the rules of logic and the input of the details of the scenario god is wondering about. The universe would be part of god, but since he'd be learning from it it'd be operating under rules (logic) that god would not be interfering with.

(Of course the idea of a 4-D thought process, instantly completed since there's no time, doesn't work IMHO since I don't see how a 4-D creature could think. It's a fun idea to play around with though.)
 
[
I understand what you are saing. But then I think some credit goes to faith aswell. Like you said " Reconciling that with determinism is complicated". I agree with you. I think you are right to some extent when you say God created universe and let it run it self. Or maybe that's how it appears to us, they are forces who are running this universe either we name those forces God or Just natural forces I don't know. As far as we humans, I think there is definate purpose of us beeing here. It is just don't make sense to me that we are here we will die and that's it. No matter what we do here, there won't be no justice in the end or some kind of questioning. Let me get back to you and Avatar and Godless on couple more issues I found some intreresting notes.
Peace
 
Correct me if I am wrong here.....

Misconceptions About the Human Genome Project


The completion of human's gene map today does not yield the result that man and ape are relatives. One need not be deceived by evolutionists' attempts to exploit this new scientific development just as they do with all others.

As known, the recent completion of the human gene map within the scope of the Human Genome Project has been a very important scientific improvement. However, some results of this project are being distorted in some evolutionist publications. It is claimed that the genes of chimpanzees have a similarity to human genes by 98 % and this is promoted as an evidence to the claim that apes are close to humans, and therefore, to the theory of evolution. In truth, this is a "fake" evidence put forward by evolutionists who benefit from the lack of knowledge of society about this subject.

98 % Similarity Claim is a Misleading Propaganda;

First, it should be stated that the 98% similarity concept, frequently advanced by evolutionists about the DNAs of man and chimpanzee, is deceptive.

In order to claim that the genetic make-ups of man and chimpanzee bear 98 % similarity, the genome of the chimpanzee also has to be mapped just as that of man's, the two has to be compared, and the result of this comparison has to be obtained. However no such result is available, because so far, only the gene of mankind has been mapped. No such research is yet done for the chimpanzee.

In reality, the 98 % similarity between the genes of man and ape, which now and then becomes an agenda item, is a propaganda oriented slogan deliberately invented years ago. This similarity is an extraordinarily exaggerated generalisation grounded on the similarity in the amino acid sequences of some 30-40 basic proteins present in man and chimpanzee. A sequence analysis has been made with a method named "DNA hybridization" on the DNA sequences that are correlated with these proteins and only those limited number of proteins have been compared.

However there are about hundred thousand genes, and therefore 100 thousand proteins coded by these genes in humans. For that reason, there is no scientific basis for claiming that all the genes of man and ape are 98% similar only because of the similarity in 40 out of 100.000 proteins.

On the other hand, the DNA comparison carried out on those 40 proteins is also controversial. This comparison was made in 1987 by two biologists named Sibley and Ahlquist and published in the periodical named Journal of Molecular Evolution. (v.26 pp. 99-1212) However another scientist named Sarich who examined the data obtained by these two scientists concluded that the reliability of the method they used is controversial and that the data has been exaggeratedly interpreted. (Sarich et al, 1989, Cladisticts 5:3-32) Dr. Don Batten, another biologist, also analysed the issue in 1996 and concluded that the real similarity rate is 96.2%, not 98 %.(CEN, 19(1); 21-22 December 1996-February 1997)

Human DNA is also similar to that of the worm, mosquito and chicken!

Moreover, the above mentioned basic proteins are common vital molecules present in various other living beings. The structure of the same kinds of proteins present not only in chimpanzee, but also in completely different living beings, is very similar to that in the humans.

For example, the genetic analyses published in New Scientist have revealed a 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man. (New Scientist, 15 May 1999, p.27) This definitely does not mean that there is only a 25% difference between man and these worms! According to the family tree made by evolutionists, the Chordata phylum, in which man is included, and Nematoda phylum were different from each other even 530 million years ago.

On the other hand, in another finding which also appeared in the Turkish media, it was stated that the comparisons carried out between the genes of fruit fly belonging to the Drosophila species and human genes yielded a similarity of 60%. (Hürriyet, 24 February 2000)

On the other hand, the analyses done on some proteins show man as close to some very different living beings. In a survey carried out by the researchers in Cambridge University, some proteins of land dwelling animals were compared. Amazingly, in nearly all samples, man and chicken were paired as the closest relatives. The next closest relative was crocodile. (New Scientist v.103, 16 August 1984, p.19)

Another example used by evolutionists on "the genetic similarity between man and ape", is the presence of 48 chromosomes in chimpanzees and gorillas versus 46 chromosomes in man. Evolutionists regard the closeness of the number of chromosomes as indication of an evolutionary relationship. However, if this logic used by evolutionists were true, then man should have an even closer relative than chimpanzee: "the potato"!. Because the number of chromosomes in potatoes is the same as that of man: 46

These examples certify that the concept of genetic similarity does not constitute evidence for the theory of evolution. This is because the genetic similarities are not in line with the alleged evolution schemes, and on the contrary, they yield completely opposite results.

Similarities are not Evidence for Evolution but for Creation

It is surely natural for the human body to bear some molecular similarities to other living beings, because they all are made up of the same molecules, they all use the same water and atmosphere, and they all consume foods consisting of the same molecules. Certainly, their metabolisms and therefore genetic make-ups would resemble to one another. This, however, is not evidence that they evolved from a common ancestor.

This "common material" is not the result of an evolution but of "common design", that is, their being created upon the same plan.

It is possible to explain this subject with an example; all constructions in the world are done with similar materials (brick, iron, cement, etc.). This, however, does not mean that these buildings "evolved" from each other. They are constructed separately by using common materials. The same is true for living beings as well.

Life did not originate as a result of unconscious coincidences as evolution claims, but as the result of the creation of God, the Almighty, the owner of infinite knowledge and wisdom.

DARWINIST-MATERIALIST MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT
THE HUMAN GENOME PROJECT

With the announcement of the latest point arrived in the the Human Genome Project, some publishing organs in Turkey started to deliver misleading messages and misinform the public so that the impasse the theory of evolution has reached is not further disclosed.

In earlier pages, we mentioned the misleading messages evolutionists delivered about the "genetic similarities" and made clear that these are the subjective interpretations which do not provide any evidence for the theory of evolution. The subject which is mostly promoted and highlighted with different slogans and headlines by the Darwinist-materialist press is the claim that the discovery of the gene map suggests that the fate decreed by God can be challenged. This is a great misconception and deceit put forward by certain circles in our country. The headlines recently appearing in the printed press and the course of discussions in television programs give the impression of a stealthy indoctrination. It is a great mistake to present the information on the human genome project accompanied by messages like "Man will no longer be defeated by his destiny." For in truth, the mapping of the human genes has no relevance whatsoever to the flow of man's fate.

The Flow of Fate Cannot be Changed

Destiny is God's perfect knowledge of all events past or future as a single moment. A majority of people question how God can already know events that have not yet been experienced and this leads them to fail in understanding the fact of destiny. However, "events not yet experienced" are only so for us. God is not bound by time or space, for He Himself has created them. For this reason, past, future, and present are all the same to God; for Him everything has already taken place and finished.

This is true for everyone and every incident. For instance, God has created everyone with a certain lifetime and everyone's moment of death is determined as to its location, time and form in the sight of God. If, in the years to come, the lifetime of a person is extended with timely interventions in the genes, this would not mean that this event defeated that person's destiny. This simply means the following: God gave this man a long life and He made the completion of gene mapping a means for his life being long. The discovery of gene map, that person's living in that era, that person's life being extended by scientific means are all his destiny. All is determined in the sight of God before this person is born into the world.

Similarly, a person whose fatal sickness is cured through the discoveries made within the scope of this project has again not changed his destiny. That is because it is this person's destiny to recover from this illness by means of this project. Consequently, completion of the human genome and the fact that man will be able to intervene in the genetic makeup, do not mean confronting the destiny created by God. On the contrary, this way, humanity follows the developments created for them by God, explores and benefits from the information created by God. If man lives 120 years thanks to these scientific developments, this is surely a lifetime decreed for him by God, this is why he lives so long.

In brief, expressions like "I defeated my destiny", "I changed my destiny" or "I intervened in my destiny" are consequences of ignorance caused by not knowing the fact of fate. On the other hand, a person's using these expressions is also predestined; how, when and under which conditions he will make these statements are all determined in the sight of God.

Cloning a Human Being or any other Living being is not Creating

In some publications, it has been alleged that by the advancement of the science of genetics, human beings would be cloned and therefore, human beings would create human beings. This, too, is a very distorted and farfetched logic. Creating is to bring something into being from nothingness, and this act is peculiar to God alone. The formation of the identical of a living being through the copying of genetic information does not mean that this living being is created. While man or any other living being is cloned, the cells of a living being are taken and copied. However, never has a single living cell been created from nothingness. The researches conducted on this subject have been stopped as they all were inconclusive.

Consequently, the discovery of the human's genetic makeup by no means implies man's challenge to his destiny, and never can it be. Every incident, every speech and development are all predetermined in the sight of God according to a certain destiny. So are scientific developments and the innovations they will introduce. God is All-Knowing, and All-Encompassing. The fact that everything, big or small, takes places within the knowledge of God is related in the Qur'an as follows:

You do not engage in any matter or recite any of the Qur'an or do any action without Our witnessing you while you are occupied with it. Not even the smallest speck eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Surah Yunus: 61)




For all the science wiz please help me out if I am not correct here.
Above article was from Haron's book. Thanks in advance.
 
Markx,

Evolution is fact. It is a waste of time to debate that it isn't. Move on.
 
Markx

Here is an interesting article that addresses current research into comparing human DNA with chimp DNA.

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/RootWeb/which_of_our_genes_make_us_human.htm

Extract -
many labs have since confirmed that our nuclear DNA is 98% to 99% identical to that of chimpanzees, few have taken on the quest to find the differences that matter.
Note that it is fully possible to compare two substances and determine that they are near identical.

Cris
 
Originally posted by Cris
Markx,

Evolution is fact. It is a waste of time to debate that it isn't. Move on.

No it's not. Maybe for you becuase that's what you like to believe in. But nothing is for fact even a religion or your Evolution. Since you said something about human and chimpz dna's I would love to take a look at that link and will provide you mine.

See, problem with you or the evolusionist scientists is same. They represent fact according to their understanding. They are already different groups of scientists some believe in creation and others in evolution and they maybe some others. But let's start with something that I like to know about from every one's point of view.



Major Milestone in the History of Humanity



Today is the day of a major milestone in history. The materialist philosophy, once imposed on the mass of humanity under the guise of science, is ironically being defeated today by science itself.

Materialism, the philosophy which holds that everything is composed of matter and which denies the existence of God, is actually the contemporary version of paganism. Ancient pagans used to worship non-living beings like wooden or stone totem poles and considered them divine beings. Materialist philosophy, on the other hand, bases its claim on the belief that man and all other beings are created by atoms and molecules. According to this superstitious view, non-living atoms somehow organized themselves and over time acquired life and consciousness finally bringing man into being.

This superstitious belief of materialism is called "evolution". The belief in evolution, first introduced in the pagan cultures of the ancient Sumerians and then the ancient Greeks, was in a way revived in the 19th century by a group of materialist scientists and brought onto the world agenda. Charles Darwin is the best known of these scientists. The theory of evolution he advanced wasted the time of the world of science for 150 years, and despite its widely acknowledged flawed nature, has been hitherto sustained for purely ideological reasons.


The pre-Socratic Greek philosophers evidently received their concepts of evolutionary cosmogony from the even more ancient religious leaders of Egypt and Babylonia or Sumeria. The Sumerian tablets ( Sorry can't post the pic ) are based on the superstitious belief of that time and refer to the imaginary stages in man's creation.
However, as mentioned earlier, today, materialism is collapsing with a big boom. It is often stated that there were three important materialist theorists who steered the 19th century: Freud, Marx and Darwin. The theories of the first two were examined, tested, and, proving to be invalid, subsequently rejected in the 20th century. Nowadays, the theory of Darwin is also collapsing.

Some important developments in June 2000 accelerated this great collapse of materialism.

First, scientists carrying out experiments to exceed the speed of light made a discovery which turned all scientific premises upside down. In an experiment in which the speed of light was exceeded many times, the scientists observed with astonishment that the effect of the experiment occurred before its cause. This was the defeat of the claim of "causality" that was put forward on the basis of materialist views, in the 19th century. The subject was outlined in a newspaper under the headline "It has been proved that effect without cause is possible and that the end of an event can happen before its beginning". Indeed, the occurrence of the effect of an action before the action that seems to be its cause, is scientific evidence that all events are created individually. This totally demolishes the materialist dogma.

A few weeks later, it was revealed that Archaeopteryx, a fossil bird presented as "the most important fossil evidence" by Darwinists for more than a century, was actually not evidence for, but a blow to the theory. When another fossil, some 75 million years older than this fossil which was allegedly the "primitive ancestor of birds", and no different from modern birds, was discovered, evolutionists were shocked. On June 25th, 2000, even a journal which used to present Archaeopteryx as the "primitive ancestor of birds" was obliged to report the news item headlined "The Ancestor of Birds Proved to be a Bird".

Finally, the Human Genome Project, an attempt to draft a rough map of the human genome, was concluded and the details of the "genetic information", which highlighted how superior God's creation of living beings is, have been revealed to mankind. Today, everyone who considers the results of this project and finds out that a single human cell contains enough information to be stored in thousands of encyclopaedia pages, grasps what a great miracle of creation this is.



Nevertheless, evolutionists try to misinterpret this recent development, which, in truth, works against them, and present it as evidence for "evolution". Unable to explain even how the DNA chain of a tiny bacterium originated, evolutionists try to deliver messages such as "human genes resemble animal genes". Such messages are inaccurate and have no scientific value. They are designed to mislead society. Meanwhile, some press institutions, both because of their ignorance on the subject and their prejudiced approach, suppose that the Human Genome Project provides "evidence of evolution" and try to present it that way.

The abovementioned evolutionist misconceptions are explained and the irrational and shallow nature of the objections raised to creation are clarified. In addition, the severity of the blow the recent findings have struck against Darwinism is explicitly revealed.

after you will read this whole post, you, too, will see that materialist philosophy which rejects God is about to meet its end and that in the 21st century, humanity will return to the real purpose of their creation by being relieved of deceits such as evolution.


Cris would you be interested to see how wrong you can be?? My information is not just opinions it is solid info with proves. If you are willing to continue I will be more then happy to go forward with info. It maybe too much info for you to digest. But let me know if you are interested.::rolleyes:
 
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