God/Satan- same team?
- Thread starter spidergoat
- Start date
Not by myself, alone, but within the hundreds of books, articles, seminars, TV documentaries, the Internet and other publications, the truth about Xianity abounds.
Well, to keep from playing a cat and mouse game, you already know about the publications that attempt to disprove the Bible and Jesus' as God. I've cited several paragraphs about Paul and his deceit. The many publications out there including the Internet give detailed accounts of how Xianity got its start and when Jesus was deified by Paul's writings and later the RCC. I cannot prove these things are lies just as you cannot prove Jesus died for your sins. These are all assumptions. It's a matter of what you choose to believe.
The Bloodline of the Holy Grail ~ Laurence Gardner
Holy Blood, Holy Grail ~ Baigent & _________
The Second Messiah ~ ____________
The Genealogy of Jesus ~ Laurence Gardner
Bloodline of the Grail Kings ~ Laurence Gardner
(anything by Laurence Gardner)
I can give you a more specific bibliography, but it's late and I'm tired. I have all Gardner's work in my collection. Also, there is a fascinating website http://www.rennes-le-chateau.com that goes into detail about Jesus and his family sailing to France with Joseph of Arimathea.
Spidergoat
I felt your question was a deeply philosophical one. I would say that the answer is that it is impossible to have a concept of good in the absence of a concept of bad. This is a consequence of way we think. It is entailed by human epistemology.
The moment you create all-good force you are forced by logic to create an all-bad one. Conceptually the existence of an all-good God depends utterly on the existence of an all-bad anti-God. They come together as an inseperable pair, just like up/down and matter/antimatter.
Canute
I felt your question was a deeply philosophical one. I would say that the answer is that it is impossible to have a concept of good in the absence of a concept of bad. This is a consequence of way we think. It is entailed by human epistemology.
The moment you create all-good force you are forced by logic to create an all-bad one. Conceptually the existence of an all-good God depends utterly on the existence of an all-bad anti-God. They come together as an inseperable pair, just like up/down and matter/antimatter.
Canute
Spidergoat
I felt your question was a deeply philosophical one. I would say that the answer is that it is impossible to have a concept of good in the absence of a concept of bad. This is a consequence of way we think. It is entailed by human epistemology.
The moment you create all-good force you are forced by logic to create an all-bad one. Conceptually the existence of an all-good God depends utterly on the existence of an all-bad anti-God. They come together as an inseperable pair, just like up/down, matter/antimatter, or two hands clapping.
Canute
I felt your question was a deeply philosophical one. I would say that the answer is that it is impossible to have a concept of good in the absence of a concept of bad. This is a consequence of way we think. It is entailed by human epistemology.
The moment you create all-good force you are forced by logic to create an all-bad one. Conceptually the existence of an all-good God depends utterly on the existence of an all-bad anti-God. They come together as an inseperable pair, just like up/down, matter/antimatter, or two hands clapping.
Canute
Why does there need to be a "bad" God? You don't need darkness to have light. You don't need the absence of God to have God. Hamlet said "nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". When everything is "good", the lack or of good is enough to constitute "bad" - but once "bad" is realized, it presents a very real alternative. It doesn't even need to "exist".
ureka
Canute, I think you hit the nail on the head, opposites create each other.
Jenyar, you do need darkness to have light, just like you need up to have down, evil to have good, silence to have sound.
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.
I find the presence of Satan an inherent flaw in christian thought, a perfect angel would never fall unless God intended, and that means Satan's not really evil. But they say there is a cosmological war between them! But at the same time they work together to encourage good. That seems to be an artifact of HUMAN thought processes.
In other religions, like Hunduism, the gods personify both good and bad qualities, the unification of opposites that mirrors our complex world.
Perhaps what is needed is a new religion that can incorporate scientific ideas and technology with an adaptable mythology. Something that defines our place in the natural world (once we find out what that is).
A new religion should be based more on an experience than fixed ideas. How does one even define religion?
Canute, I think you hit the nail on the head, opposites create each other.
Jenyar, you do need darkness to have light, just like you need up to have down, evil to have good, silence to have sound.
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.
I find the presence of Satan an inherent flaw in christian thought, a perfect angel would never fall unless God intended, and that means Satan's not really evil. But they say there is a cosmological war between them! But at the same time they work together to encourage good. That seems to be an artifact of HUMAN thought processes.
In other religions, like Hunduism, the gods personify both good and bad qualities, the unification of opposites that mirrors our complex world.
Perhaps what is needed is a new religion that can incorporate scientific ideas and technology with an adaptable mythology. Something that defines our place in the natural world (once we find out what that is).
A new religion should be based more on an experience than fixed ideas. How does one even define religion?
wayne_92587
Registered Senior Member
Re: ureka
When you separate the Light from the Darkness you, steps into the Twice Light Zone, moonshine, become duplicitous.
A duality being a pair of opposites does not make a pair of opposites a duality.
When you separate the Light from the Darkness you, steps into the Twice Light Zone, moonshine, become duplicitous.
A duality being a pair of opposites does not make a pair of opposites a duality.
Either Satan was made to be evil or he was forced to do evil. There is no other alternative, unless angels have free will.
Dear dak, angels are "creatures." They are not created the same as human beings. Humans were created to "evolve." An angel is created to stay the same for eternity. That said, angels are created for a particular purpose. There are different levels of angels (as in powers and principalities--cherubim, seraphim, etc.)
To answer your question, I always thought angels didn't have free will like humans do, since they were made for a specific purpose (i.e. peacekeeper, messenger, demon, etc.), so in that case, some angels were created to be evil. I don't think they were forced to do evil. Then that brings up the question, why did God create evil angels? Why did God allow the Serpent to be in Eden? That tends to make me believe the creator of the world (Eden, Paradise, maybe Limbo) were created by Satan. It isn't God battling Satan, it's Man battling God and Satan. Just a thought.
wayne_92587
Registered Senior Member
Re: Re: Re: ureka
Still working on a full response.
Half-assed response follows.
Simple pairs of opposites do not qualify as a Duality.
With a simple pair of opposites the Reality of one is relative, subject to, defined by the Reality, the existence, of the other.
A Duality is the differentiation of a Singularity that becomes so extreme that the one becomes Two; the singularity is made manifest as two separate and distinctly different, independent, opposing Entities, individual Realities, each becoming indefinable.
Still working on a full response.
Half-assed response follows.
Simple pairs of opposites do not qualify as a Duality.
With a simple pair of opposites the Reality of one is relative, subject to, defined by the Reality, the existence, of the other.
A Duality is the differentiation of a Singularity that becomes so extreme that the one becomes Two; the singularity is made manifest as two separate and distinctly different, independent, opposing Entities, individual Realities, each becoming indefinable.
If angels don't have free will, then how was Satan able to go against God. He chose to do such things, and he paid the price for it.
Yes they are assigned specific tasks, but they still have the opportunity to disobey/not follow that command.
What leads you guys to believe that angels don't have free will?
Yes they are assigned specific tasks, but they still have the opportunity to disobey/not follow that command.
What leads you guys to believe that angels don't have free will?
Angels
First, jcarl, it was I who answered you. I do not speak for the other "guys."
Let's leave the Bible out of this so it won't be a one-sided discussion. How do we know for sure that Satan really went against God? We have a story written by someone whom we think may be Moses. However, that is questionable. Do you think the author of the story of Satan's rebellion actually saw it happen? No. Even if he heard about it second hand from the actual observer of the rebellion, can it be confirmed? No. So all we have to go on is an ancient Bible story that was created as a myth.
The next question that comes to mind is, why did God allow Satan to rebel? Surely, being God and all, he could have prevented the rebellion, but he let it happen. Should we blame Satan or should we blame God for the terrible state this world is in? After all, it was God's creation. Did he create us just to watch us be destroyed?
Now, back to angels. Angels are creatures that were created intact. They do not evolve. They do not change in any way. They are usually seen as male figures, but they are actually sexless. They do not have a physical body nor do they have physical needs. Do they have free will? I don't think so. The only purpose of their creation was to serve God... but I will go further to say their purpose is to also serve Satan. It works both ways. God is a polar God. On one extreme he is the good creator, our higher power. On the opposite extreme he is Satan, ruler of the world. The human race is balanced in between the poles. It isn't logical that angels would have free will. They are but a "mouthpiece" of their Creator. Between the poles of God's existence is our existence. Between the poles are the powers and principalities of the unseen world, the parallel universes, where we cannot enter into just now. Only the human race has free will to move about from pole to pole. Angels are just manifestations (spiritual emissions) of the higher power they serve.
When you said that Satan paid the price for his disobedience to God, I'm afraid you are wrong. Satan was given the wonderful gift of this world, the world we live in, and it is up to the human race to take it back.
First, jcarl, it was I who answered you. I do not speak for the other "guys."
Let's leave the Bible out of this so it won't be a one-sided discussion. How do we know for sure that Satan really went against God? We have a story written by someone whom we think may be Moses. However, that is questionable. Do you think the author of the story of Satan's rebellion actually saw it happen? No. Even if he heard about it second hand from the actual observer of the rebellion, can it be confirmed? No. So all we have to go on is an ancient Bible story that was created as a myth.
The next question that comes to mind is, why did God allow Satan to rebel? Surely, being God and all, he could have prevented the rebellion, but he let it happen. Should we blame Satan or should we blame God for the terrible state this world is in? After all, it was God's creation. Did he create us just to watch us be destroyed?
Now, back to angels. Angels are creatures that were created intact. They do not evolve. They do not change in any way. They are usually seen as male figures, but they are actually sexless. They do not have a physical body nor do they have physical needs. Do they have free will? I don't think so. The only purpose of their creation was to serve God... but I will go further to say their purpose is to also serve Satan. It works both ways. God is a polar God. On one extreme he is the good creator, our higher power. On the opposite extreme he is Satan, ruler of the world. The human race is balanced in between the poles. It isn't logical that angels would have free will. They are but a "mouthpiece" of their Creator. Between the poles of God's existence is our existence. Between the poles are the powers and principalities of the unseen world, the parallel universes, where we cannot enter into just now. Only the human race has free will to move about from pole to pole. Angels are just manifestations (spiritual emissions) of the higher power they serve.
When you said that Satan paid the price for his disobedience to God, I'm afraid you are wrong. Satan was given the wonderful gift of this world, the world we live in, and it is up to the human race to take it back.
jenyar...
I wonder what that remark implied.... actually I feel now like I'm in the line separating theists and atheists (wonder if this is relevant....) since I still believe in heaven and hell, but blurry....
I wonder what that remark implied.... actually I feel now like I'm in the line separating theists and atheists (wonder if this is relevant....) since I still believe in heaven and hell, but blurry....