God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

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f those 'weak atheists' of yours can't be sure that 'God does not exist', then why should they be classified as atheists in the first place?

Simple answer; Theism, those whom believe in religious dogma, god or gods.
"Atheism is derived from the Greek, atheos, and means simply 'away from the belief in a god or gods.' " http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm

The English language is very rich; and it must have some word for labeling this kind of undecided people.

We are not undecided, we are very well informed of the vagueness of religious scripture to produce any credible empirical evidence of their god. However we are not going to put ourselves in the same position as the theist is by asserting a positive statement. The positive statement "god exists" requires foreknowledge of what god is, and that it exists. As a strong atheist, he directly puts himself in the same position, because the positive statement "god does not exist" this would imply that such a person has foreknowledge of what god is, and that it does not exist, therefore he/she would require empirical evidence of what god is, and that it's non existent. Since no one knows what god is, even theists, the assertion is unprovable just as the theist's assertion are unprovable.

However, I think you mean, in this context, the politics of atheism. It's, here, that people who think 'God does not exist' can be divided into 'strong' & 'weak'; i.e. the militant & the passive.

Na,na,na,no,no, What you are doing here is classifying characters of an individual, I'm a weak atheist genre, but I can also be a total asshole when dealing with theists, just look around or read some of my posts directed at LightGigantic, amongst other theist around here who are constantly preaching and bible thumping. This is BTW a scientific forum with a sub-forum on religion, thus giving the opportunity for theist to present their believes in a scientific manner, and yada, yada, however this very seldom happens, and some get aggravated with the constant bickering amongst both camps of the debate.

And so, the 'strong atheist' is the one who dislikes very much his follow theists, refuses to put his hand on the Bible in court, and forces his wife and children to follow him. That is on one hand.

Again this happens to be with the character of the individual, I'm pretty courteous with my family, I'm the only atheist in my family, I'm not married but most of my X's have been religious. If I were to get married, "not any time in the near future" I wouldn't mind if she's religious, but I wouldn't want a religious wedding either, if I went through with it, this would make me a hypocrite. If I were to testify in a court room and asked to place my hand on the bible, I do think I'd tell the judge I don't believe in a christian god, or any god whatsoever, and don't consider the bible to be sacred, but a historical document of ancient people. BTW, I would kindly remind them of "separation of church and state"

On the other hand, the 'weak atheist' is the one who can afford to sit inside a church, relax inside a mosque, and take a nap inside a synagogue, all in one day!

I wouldn't know about anyone else, but I sat in church many times, (I didn't melt, faint, or burst into internal combustion) I was there with parents, and occasionally with some girlfriends as well, it does not bug me, nor do I think it bother any other atheist either. BTW most atheist were religious at one point in their lives.

In this sense of the term, the communists, in their heyday, must have been 'strong atheists', because they refused to co-exist with their follow theists under any conceivable circumstances.

This is a canard! atheism does not equal or imply communism.

By contrast, the Darwinians must be classified as 'weak atheists', because they tend to leave religion alone as long as the theists refrain from interfering with the science of biology.

Once again your characterizing individuals or generalizing their stance because of their scientific believes, many christians believe in Darwinian evolution and consider themselves christians.
http://blogs.chron.com/thinkingchristian/2007/02/evolution_sunday.html
 
AAF,

"Atheism: "Time in infinite."
Theism: "Time is infinite."

Therefore, atheism is right so there is no god!"


Huuuumm..... there is something wrong with this picture....

:crazy:


:bawl:


Hello Eldorado-seeking Conquistador;

Your syllogism is wrong.
This is the right SYLLOGISM:

· Every entity whose concept is contradictory does not exist.
· Infinite time renders the concept of 'God' contradictory.
· Therefore, God does not exist.
 
Because they do not have the belief that god exists. That is all it takes to be an atheist.

It is NOT a matter of indecision - it is merely a matter of not having the belief that god exists.

Nope - I don't think he was saying this.
I know plenty of "strong" atheists who could do everything you assign to the "passive" - they can sit in a church and be comfortable, knowing that it means diddly-squat to them but that it means a lot to other people.

Whether an atheist - weak or strong - has an issue with other peoples' belief is irrelevant.

So, on reflection, AAF, you really do need to revise your understanding.
It has diddly to do with strength of "anti-theism / anti-religion" - and merely reflects either a belief in non-existence (strong atheism) or just a lack of belief in existence (weak atheism).

:)


Hi Sarkus;

We may have, here, a controversial issue to discuss!

Theists believe that 'God does exist'; and atheists believe that 'God does not exist'. Those two groups are independent of each other; and their levels of belief have to be reckoned and evaluated solely on the basis of the proposition of 'God does exist' & the proposition of 'God does not exist', respectively.

Let the scale of belief, in both cases, run from 0 to 1 (probability scale). On this scale, we would certainly find theists whose degree of belief is very close to 1 at one end; and theists whose degree of belief is pretty close to 0 at the other end. The same applies to atheists regarding their degree of belief in the statement of 'God does not exist'. In other words, random and sufficient samples of both theists & atheists must, as all natural things, form natural bell curves of statistical distribution:
http://www.robertniles.com/stats/stdev.shtml

The problem, now, is procedural. What is the procedure that we can use to identify the degree of belief of individuals in the two independent groups above?

No matter how you look at it, there is only one objective procedure that can be used, in this regard. And that practical procedure is built upon the politics of theism & the politics of atheism. Since it's absolutely true that the stronger the belief of the individual in some proposition; the more likely to act on it and become an activist for it. Therefore, the brief analysis, in my previous post, is correct.
 
Simple answer; Theism, those whom believe in religious dogma, god or gods.
"Atheism is derived from the Greek, atheos, and means simply 'away from the belief in a god or gods.' " http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm



We are not undecided, we are very well informed of the vagueness of religious scripture to produce any credible empirical evidence of their god. However we are not going to put ourselves in the same position as the theist is by asserting a positive statement. The positive statement "god exists" requires foreknowledge of what god is, and that it exists. As a strong atheist, he directly puts himself in the same position, because the positive statement "god does not exist" this would imply that such a person has foreknowledge of what god is, and that it does not exist, therefore he/she would require empirical evidence of what god is, and that it's non existent. Since no one knows what god is, even theists, the assertion is unprovable just as the theist's assertion are unprovable.



Na,na,na,no,no, What you are doing here is classifying characters of an individual, I'm a weak atheist genre, but I can also be a total asshole when dealing with theists, just look around or read some of my posts directed at LightGigantic, amongst other theist around here who are constantly preaching and bible thumping. This is BTW a scientific forum with a sub-forum on religion, thus giving the opportunity for theist to present their believes in a scientific manner, and yada, yada, however this very seldom happens, and some get aggravated with the constant bickering amongst both camps of the debate.



Again this happens to be with the character of the individual, I'm pretty courteous with my family, I'm the only atheist in my family, I'm not married but most of my X's have been religious. If I were to get married, "not any time in the near future" I wouldn't mind if she's religious, but I wouldn't want a religious wedding either, if I went through with it, this would make me a hypocrite. If I were to testify in a court room and asked to place my hand on the bible, I do think I'd tell the judge I don't believe in a christian god, or any god whatsoever, and don't consider the bible to be sacred, but a historical document of ancient people. BTW, I would kindly remind them of "separation of church and state"



I wouldn't know about anyone else, but I sat in church many times, (I didn't melt, faint, or burst into internal combustion) I was there with parents, and occasionally with some girlfriends as well, it does not bug me, nor do I think it bother any other atheist either. BTW most atheist were religious at one point in their lives.



This is a canard! atheism does not equal or imply communism.



Once again your characterizing individuals or generalizing their stance because of their scientific believes, many christians believe in Darwinian evolution and consider themselves christians.
http://blogs.chron.com/thinkingchristian/2007/02/evolution_sunday.html

;)



Hello godless;

Theists are believers in the correctness of the statement that 'God does exist'. Atheists are believers in the correctness of the statement that 'God does not exist'. And to be truly lacking the belief in something, one must be completely unaware of 'the existence as well as the non-existence' of that something, and must have never ever heard of it. And you should realize that 'lack of belief' is not the same and is quite different from 'disbelief'. Picture the two bell curves that I mentioned to Sarkus! Well, the item of 'lack of belief' is the zero-start point of the theism bell curve and also the zero-start point of the atheism bell curve.

Does atheism imply communism? No one could reasonably maintain that.
But communism does, indeed, imply its own brand of atheism.

Are there Christians who believe in the theory of Evolution?
Sure, many Christians believe in it. They have, successfully, reconciled it with their religious dogmas. But that is not the point.

To be classified as a true Darwinian, one must add to the belief in Darwin's science the belief in his very docile atheism as well; right?
 
Theists are believers in the correctness of the statement that 'God does exist'. Atheists are believers in the correctness of the statement that 'God does not exist'. And to be truly lacking the belief in something, one must be completely unaware of 'the existence as well as the non-existence' of that something, and must have never ever heard of it.

Theist need to come to terms and explain what god is, and what evidence they can provide that it exists. Atheist lack the belief that theist assertions are valid!

(To be truly lacking one completely is unaware of the existence of something!)

OK! that's why children who are not yet corrupted with theist assertions of a god, are basically atheists, babies by nature of what you explained above are without belief, thus atheists.

And furthermore atheist and theists are completely unaware of the existence of god! Theist claim "god" exists, yet they can't provide any empirical evidence to back up their assertions. Atheists just don't believe theists wild assertions!

Does atheism imply communism? No one could reasonably maintain that.
But communism does, indeed, imply its own brand of atheism.

Communism implies a form of religion, really! instead of worshiping a god, supernatural force, the force to be worshiped, is the state!

The basic idea of both religion and communism is altruism.

To be classified as a true Darwinian, one must add to the belief in Darwin's science the belief in his very docile atheism as well; right?

I don't think Darwin ever classified himself as an atheist. I think what he tried to imply is that evolution is/was just a tool that god used to create the species. ? not sure too lazy too look it up! :shrug:
 
Theist need to come to terms and explain what god is, and what evidence they can provide that it exists. Atheist lack the belief that theist assertions are valid!

(To be truly lacking one completely is unaware of the existence of something!)

OK! that's why children who are not yet corrupted with theist assertions of a god, are basically atheists, babies by nature of what you explained above are without belief, thus atheists.

And furthermore atheist and theists are completely unaware of the existence of god! Theist claim "god" exists, yet they can't provide any empirical evidence to back up their assertions. Atheists just don't believe theists wild assertions!

Communism implies a form of religion, really! instead of worshiping a god, supernatural force, the force to be worshiped, is the state!

The basic idea of both religion and communism is altruism.

I don't think Darwin ever classified himself as an atheist. I think what he tried to imply is that evolution is/was just a tool that god used to create the species. ? not sure too lazy too look it up! :shrug:

:rolleyes:


Hi godless;

Clearly, your above definition of atheism is so broad and loosely outlined that babies and butterflies and elephants and lions and rhinos can fit right into it! I understand that you're a uniter NOT a divider; and I do appreciate your strategy of forming a united front of non-theists against all theists. But this very loose definition just doesn't hold water.

For any person to be qualified as an atheist, he/she must be legally competent and capable of making legally binding decisions. He/she, also, must be a competent thinker and able to accept and reject ideas & hypotheses for good reasons. An adequate definition of atheism, therefore, must reflect these basic requirements.

As you pointed out in your comment, theists cannot come up with any empirical evidence to support their hypothesis that 'all-powerful God does exist'. But what is exactly the empirical evidence that you're looking for, in this particular case? Can you specify it?

In my view, empirical evidence belongs exclusively to natural sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, geology…etc.) and plays no role whatsoever in theology, philosophy, logic, and mathematics. Nonetheless, it's a very wonderful 'catchy phrase' to throw on the bewildered and the confused theists in this Scientific Age; right?

However, even if the challenged theists, as expected, fail to provide you with the empirical evidence you're asking for, their failure will not falsify their hypothesis. That is because the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And sure enough, the theists know that they don't have a shred of evidence of this kind or any other kind. That is the reason why they always call, very sheepishly, their belief 'FAITH'.

More importantly, hypotheses in general cannot be proved true by evidence. They can only be proven false by contrary evidence:
http://www.yuksel.org/e/philosophy/falsifiability.htm
The burden of disproof, therefore, is on the challenging atheists, in this case, whether they like it or not. Fortunately for them (you & me included), the disproof of the 'Hypothesis of all-powerful God' is very easy and close at hand and firmly based on the rules of logic and reason; and it's very lethal. The theists know very well it's fatal and lethal; that is why they resort to nonsense and sophistry; and they're grumpy and ill tempered all the time; correct?

With regard to your remark on communism, I agree with you that it's a kind of religion. There can be no doubt about it. And this presents us with a formidable PROBLEM. That is to say, we can get rid of religion, but we can't get rid of religious feelings and attitudes.

Every past event, in this regard, indicates that the energy of religious emotions, in every society, is physically conserved, so to speak. And this emotional energy, simply, transfers itself to another similar belief system (ideology) upon the successful demolition of a particular religious system.

So what do you think, godless? Are you going to put up with the Christians whose ideology you know very well, or to take the risk of confronting another ideological system completely unknown to you? You, probably, will shrug and dismiss this observation of history as unfounded; but that is okay; you don't have to make your pick right now; since your fellow Christians are still very strong.
 
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:) Theists believe that 'God does exist'; and atheists believe that 'God does not exist'.
NO!
How many times do people have to explain to you!?

Atheism is merely a lack of a belief that god exists.
While some chose also to believe that God does not exist, many atheists do not hold that belief.

What of this do you not understand????

If you believe "God exists" - you are theist.
If you do not have this belief - you are atheist.

Whether or not you have the separate belief that "god doesn't exist" is irrelevant!
 
NO!
How many times do people have to explain to you!?

Atheism is merely a lack of a belief that god exists.
While some chose also to believe that God does not exist, many atheists do not hold that belief.

What of this do you not understand????

If you believe "God exists" - you are theist.
If you do not have this belief - you are atheist.

Whether or not you have the separate belief that "god doesn't exist" is irrelevant!

Exactly.
 
Clearly, your above definition of atheism is so broad and loosely outlined that babies and butterflies and elephants and lions and rhinos can fit right into it!

Of course it does, it fits to a T! non of them have belief in god, thus atheists!

I understand that you're a uniter NOT a divider; and I do appreciate your strategy of forming a united front of non-theists against all theists. But this very loose definition just doesn't hold water.

It holds water, as long as non of those species you mentioned do not believe in god. The only species to think of god, is the consciousness of human brain, if one does not accept the belief of god, one is an atheist, if one doesn't know the god of Christianity or any monotheist god, or rejects the notion of their existence then one is an atheist. There's nothing broad about it, just like Sarkus mentions above!

For any person to be qualified as an atheist, he/she must be legally competent and capable of making legally binding decisions. He/she, also, must be a competent thinker and able to accept and reject ideas & hypotheses for good reasons.

True, and the main reason is lack of evidence.

An adequate definition of atheism, therefore, must reflect these basic requirements.

Not necessarily, atheism means without religion. Thus if a person denies any kind of religion, monotheists or polytheistic that person is considered atheist. On the other hand if that person knows of no god, or has no knowledge of any kind of god for whatever religion, or is completely unaware of cultural beliefs in religion of a region that person is said to be atheist. If a person is born with out a consciousness, lass a human vegetable, that person is an atheist, when a baby is born, his immature mind can't comprehend belief or is unaware of religious beliefs, he/she by default is an atheist. Thus atheism is simply (with out religion)

As you pointed out in your comment, theists cannot come up with any empirical evidence to support their hypothesis that 'all-powerful God does exist'. But what is exactly the empirical evidence that you're looking for, in this particular case? Can you specify it?

Sure it would only take a supernatural phenomenon that every one in the planet, with a consciousness and a reasonable mind can perceive the phenomenon. And even then, you'll have the doubters. But hey If I win the 500million$$ Lotto without buying a ticket, I'll believe! ;)

However, even if the challenged theists, as expected, fail to provide you with the empirical evidence you're asking for, their failure will not falsify their hypothesis.

They have had 3 millenniums by now you figured they would have worked it out. There is 1000's of gods, 33000 sects of Christianity alone, thousands of religions, most in conflict, the "hypothesis" has brought nothing more then human damnation and despair, stagnation to human advancement in many fields, truly religion has been nothing more, then an attempt at manipulating the masses.

In my view, empirical evidence belongs exclusively to natural sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, geology…etc.) and plays no role whatsoever in theology, philosophy, logic, and mathematics. Nonetheless, it's a very wonderful 'catchy phrase' to throw on the bewildered and the confused theists in this Scientific Age; right?

Then theology must by default quit trying to explain the origin of the universe, life, and trying to dictate their moral code on the rest of us! :rolleyes:

The burden of disproof, therefore, is on the challenging atheists

That is a canard. A claim always has to be proven by the one making the claim, not the other way around. Atheists simply deny claims made by theists, thus the burden of proof, is on their shoulders. Which brings us back to the point of "weak atheism" thus since I can't provide you with the evidence of what god is, or if it exists or not, then by default I don't claim "god does not exist" I simply claim I don't believe a god exists on the evidence or lack there of shown by theists.

With regard to your remark on communism, I agree with you that it's a kind of religion. There can be no doubt about it. And this presents us with a formidable PROBLEM. That is to say, we can get rid of religion, but we can't get rid of religious feelings and attitudes.

No humanity just needs to further evolve, some of us already have! ;)
I'll refer you to a book on a theory of consciousness and how it evolved, from a primitive mind "bicameral" to a conscious mind.
http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php

Mind you it's controversial theory, but non the less worth the time to read it.

Every past event, in this regard, indicates that the energy of religious emotions, in every society, is physically conserved, so to speak. And this emotional energy, simply, transfers itself to another similar belief system (ideology) upon the successful demolition of a particular religious system.

It's that "demolition" of different sects of beliefs by other theological sects which brought me to atheism in a way. After reading the so many atrocities done in the name of god, I started to disbelief in such religious rhetoric. After learning more, and growing more, I realized that religion has been nothing more then a tool to manipulate a society, an ideology of competing clans over control of the masses, and still to this day, we continue, to try and force one ideology upon another.


So what do you think, godless? Are you going to put up with the Christians whose ideology you know very well, or to take the risk of confronting another ideological system completely unknown to you? You, probably, will shrug and dismiss this observation of history as unfounded; but that is okay; you don't have to make your pick right now; since your fellow Christians are still very strong.

I think, that if our human society had chosen another path, and by the time of Jesus birth, airplanes were flying between continents, he would have been locked up as a lunatic. If humanity would have rejected mysticism of Plato and embraced objectivism of Aristotle we would be 2000 years more advanced today then we are now. However we are at a threshold. Its called the "nuclear threshold". As a human society if we continue on the same path, we will have to make that choice, to survive as a human species or to embrace mysticism or reason!
 
AAF:

Excellent post once again. You present very well why the matter of God is a philosophical topic, to be addressed by reason, and not a natural scientific one, to be addressed with empirical evidence.
 
Excellent post once again. You present very well why the matter of God is a philosophical topic, to be addressed by reason, and not a natural scientific one, to be addressed with empirical evidence.

Yes it's a philosophical topic, for that is exactly what religion is, a philosophy. But when religion philosophical query dwells to postulate of why of the universe and life on earth, and then defines terms of how these came to exist, then it stops being philosophical but scientific. For the assertions made of how life began and why of the universe those belong in science not mythology.
 
Godless:

Science deals with physics. Philosophy with metaphysics. Science cannot be employed to discuss necessity, eternity, infinity, or any other such concepts. ANd it just so happens that God requires the discussion of all of the above.
 
What is remarkable is if one can relate how close science really is to providing evidence of metaphysical claims.

Thus it does take science to understand further the concepts of necessity, eternity, and infinity.
 
Godless:

Science is incapable of proving necessity (necessity is beyond falsification), ergo, it cannot ever provide evidence of any metaphysical claim.
 
metaphysics is the study of that which exists, how is science not providing evidence of that which exists?
 
Godless:

Science is the means whereby one can ascertain what exists empirically and contingently. Metaphysics deals with necessary aspects of existence. For instance, that existence should exist at all is a metaphysical problem, which cannot be addressed through empirical validation. Neither can one deal with infinity on a scientific level, as clearly, one cannot reach infinity to observe it, nor otherwise receive empirical evidence of it.
 
Oh! got ya!

(Through metaphysics, philosophy is an enterprise interested in understanding the nature of reality. Philosophers, however, are not the only people interested in this endeavor. Scientists too spend their time attempting to analyze and understand reality. We should note that this differentiation between the realm of science and philosophy has not always existed. For instance, many of the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers were engaged in what we would now call science. Aristotle, one of the West’s greatest philosophers is also considered one of the first and certainly most influential scientists of all time. When Aristotle pondered the nature of reality, however, he did not try to decide whether he was doing philosophy or science; for him there was no difference.)http://www.mhhe.com/mayfieldpub/lawhead/chapter3/metaphysics_and_science.htm

I'm just an old bird, learning new things, but thanks for the "modern" view of it!
 
Godless:

Initially, philosophy and science were indistinguishable, yes. But in general, we try to split them based on what can be empirically and what can be rationally verified in the modern era.

Anyway, yes.
 
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