God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

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swivel said:
Prince James, you are aware that AAF disagrees with you on just about every point? He isn't arguing FOR the infinite past, he is arguing AGAINST it.



So... god existed for an infinite length of time before he got around to creating the universe?

Think harder on this.
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:)

Hi swivel;

I really hate to disagree with you on this subject; but my view about TIME is closer to that of Prince_James. In fact, his view is quite conservative compared to mine, in this regard! Prince_James considers the concept of motion meaningless in the absence of time:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=61714
For me, by contrast, nothing whatsoever makes any sense in the absence of time. Take, for example, everyday language. NOT a single word, in the dictionary, can make any sense without the concept of time.

I've told TruthSeeker many times that his 'God' cannot be eternal in the absence of eternity. I've pointed out to many theists that if their 'God' is eternal, then the world must be eternal as well. And hence, their 'God' is useless and redundant. During those previous discussions about the concept of time, our friend, TruthSeeker, has become Cartesian more than Rene Descartes; and started to doubt everything! In particular, he thinks it's impossible for an infinite amount of time to pass and become past. And so I made my previous post as neutral and objective as possible to help him get that BIG misconception out of his head. I tried to show him that every instant of time, regardless of its position on the time co-ordinate, is always bounded by past infinity on one side and by future infinity on the other side. And that the passing of time makes neither past infinity more infinite, nor future infinity less infinite. And so, the Infinite Past (past eternity) is an absolute ontological GIVEN and totally unaffected by the continuous flow of time. It's a mistake in logic, therefore, to assume implicitly that the Infinite Past is dependent upon or produced by the usual ticking or passing of time as reckoned at some specific past instant. In short, the Infinite Past has no beginning; and every moment anywhere on the time co-ordinate is always bounded by future eternity on one side and past eternity on the other side; and it cannot be perceived in any other way without violating the principles of reason.
 
So? There is infinity in the past adn infinity in the future. What does that tell us? It tells us that our perception of time is limited, that's all. But both infinities are simply impossible given the amount of information that we currently have. So it is obvious that we are missing something. Our perception is limited, so something which is completely logical may seem impossible to us.

Like... geezz... all that you said is this: "There is infinite time in the past, but for the purposes of atheism, there is no infinite time in the past". Convinient for ya, eh? :rolleyes:



...

Time doesn't exist for someone who is dead.
 
No - it is not perceived. Surely, the rot the body undergoes is indicative of time.

AAF:

Brilliantly argued.
 
Hmmm, I've never seen god, but I do admit that it is curious that I can sit here and type on this computer and know that I'm a human, while your average fish in the ocean doesn't even know its a fish, or that its inside an ocean.... but I contend that if god exists, he or it is us or is inside the most concious creatures.... ramble ramble ramble
 
TruthSeeker said:
So? There is infinity in the past adn infinity in the future. What does that tell us? It tells us that our perception of time is limited, that's all. But both infinities are simply impossible given the amount of information that we currently have. So it is obvious that we are missing something. Our perception is limited, so something which is completely logical may seem impossible to us.

Like... geezz... all that you said is this: "There is infinite time in the past, but for the purposes of atheism, there is no infinite time in the past". Convinient for ya, eh?

...

Time doesn't exist for someone who is dead.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:


Hello truth-seeking DUDE;

As I see it, you're the real paradox, here!
On one hand, you're philosophically minded and very intelligent.
That is true; I'm not trying to flatter you. Not many people can imagine distances to the nearest stars, let alone the infinite. Recall Rev. 'Jan Ardena' and his trouble with imagining the size of the ocean! Well, many people are like him.

On the other hand, you appear to be baffled and bewildered and greatly puzzled by this very simple thing called 'infinity'. Is there anything anywhere in the whole Universe simpler and easier to perceive than something with no boundaries? It's a PIECE of cake, 'man'! The INFINITE is nothing more than repeating the same simple PART and basic UNIT forever and ever and ever; and that is it.

Your problem with infinity is very likely due to negative autosuggestion, if not self-hypnosis. If you keep saying to yourself, day in and day out, "my brain is tiny; my perception is limited; I can't get it; infinity is bigger than me; I'm too dumb; and so on…", you will, certainly, get puzzled and become dumber than the dumbest 'theist' on the Planet. There can be no doubt about it. So appreciate the power of your MIND; and be proud of it!

Now, let's take a closer look at this erroneous statement of yours, "there is infinite time in the past, but for the purposes of atheism, there is no infinite time in the past"!

Obviously, the Infinite Past and the Paradox of the Infinite Past have gotten mixed in your head. What a shame; you could do better; bye-bye truth seeking; this 'atheism' thing is killing you!

The Infinite Past is an integral part of reality. And you can't deny its existence without having your arguments crushed under heavy loads of contradictions and absurdities. So please, don't give me the 'honor' of owning the above FABULOUS statement of yours about the Infinite Past; I don't want to own it; it's bogus!

What is the Paradox of the Infinite Past? It's the KILLER of the theories of Creation. It's the ENEMY of the theists. It's devastating! And it goes something like this. Creationists suppose that their hypothetical eternal 'God' created the Universe out of nothing a few thousands of years ago! But if their supposed God is eternal, then why did He wait for an eternity to pass before creating the Universe? Was He lazy? Was He unable? Or was He simply imaginary and unreal?

Furthermore, the hypothetical God of the theists cannot be eternal in the absence of eternity. And accordingly, their God couldn't possibly have created eternity and the Infinite Past that goes with it. And if their God cannot create eternity and the Infinite Past, then it's possible to demonstrate very convincingly and step by step that He cannot create anything. And therefore, the hypothetical 'God' of the theists is completely useless and redundant and under the sharpest edge of Ockam's Razor. He must be weeded out. And that, in a nutshell, is the Paradox of the Infinite Past.

:)
 
Furthermore, time is not a definite thing.



As I said, time is irrelevant for dead people...
 
Prince_James said:
Truthseeker:

What is the significance of "irrelevance" to dead people?
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*************
M*W: I wish I knew. I lost my mother back in 2002. It seemed like she defied death in my mind, but she's still gone. Exactly where does one connect with a loved one's physical death? Why do our dreams overwhelm us? Why do we even dream such things? Our psyche wants to believe our departed loved ones still want to exist. Our psyche tells us to beieve anthing that our conscuiys mind believes. No wonder. Our psychical ability gives us the precedence to believe in human physic ability. Our physical need is to believe in the human psychic ability, as so:

let's relive history, shall we? We have our trusting historic past, our envieable historic presence, and our hopeful ambiance toward the future. That is our plan!
 
Medicine*Woman said:
*************
M*W: I wish I knew. I lost my mother back in 2002. It seemed like she defied death in my mind, but she's still gone. Exactly where does one connect with a loved one's physical death? Why do our dreams overwhelm us? Why do we even dream such things? Our psyche wants to believe our departed loved ones still want to exist. Our psyche tells us to beieve anthing that our conscuiys mind believes. No wonder. Our psychical ability gives us the precedence to believe in human physic ability. Our physical need is to believe in the human psychic ability, as so:

let's relive history, shall we? We have our trusting historic past, our envieable historic presence, and our hopeful ambiance toward the future. That is our plan!
Click to expand...



Hi Medicine woman;

I think you may have to go back to your Mom's religion and re-install your belief in it. Christians called that 're-birth'! You're of Muslim background; correct? My condolences….
 
TruthSeeker said:
How does atheism handle with the infinity of time? Can you explain that?
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:rolleyes:


Atheism is the NEGATION of theism; i.e. atheism = -(theism).
That is a very BIG thing to deal with it collectively or to define it precisely.

Consider this! In logic, when you say (A), you always mean some definitive thing.
But when you negate (A), you get -(A). This minus (A) refers to everything else in the Universe, except that well-defined entity called (A). And so -(A) is really BIG.

Atheism is not as big in its SCOPE as -(A), because it applies to religion ONLY; but it still has a LARGER domain and WIDER range than that of theism. For example, atheism must include some believers in the eternal Universe, some believers in the absolute beginning of the Big Bang, the materialists, the nihilists, the communists, some idealists, some humanists, some secularists, some libertines, Charles Darwin, Sigmund Freud, the founder of the CNN, Jesse Ventura, swivel, and me.

Therefore, when you use the term 'atheism' in this context, you probably mean only my 'atheism' & swivel's 'atheism'; right?

Well, my 'atheism' couldn't possibly be incompatible with the Infinite Past; since it is based upon the Infinite Past.

As for swivel's 'atheism', I suppose it's based on the Big Bang. And since the Big Bang does not presuppose anything eternal before it, swivel's 'atheism' too has no problem with the Paradox of the Infinite Past, because it has no infinite past.

Regarding your other STATEMENT about 'time & the dead', it is not quite coherent; but I suppose what you really meant is, "can time resurrect the dead"?

Sure, time can RESURRECT the dead! And it's called the 'Eternal Return':
http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/great/projects/Adams.htm
http://www.wpunj.edu/cohss/philosophy/COURSES/NIETNET/RECUR.HTM

:)
 
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AAF said:
Hi Medicine woman;

I think you may have to go back to your Mom's religion and re-install your belief in it. Christians called that 're-birth'! You're of Muslim background; correct? My condolences….
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: No, I won't be going back to my mother's religion. She was raised in a brutal hard-shelled Baptist/Jehovah's Witness environment. It hardened her. She suffered lifelong depression and could have been bipolar. She was never treated, because it was an unmentionable illness that only god could cure. She lived her entire life with very low self-esteem with terrible guilt pounded into her head. She never laughed. She rarely smiled. She had no joy in her life. She showed no love to my dad, her own family, me, her grandchildren nor her great grandchilden. She hated her brothers and sisters, and apparently they didn't like her so much either. So, no, I will never go back to my mother's religion. And where did you get the idea I was Muslim?

I was raised in an agnostic home. I attended a Baptist University. I converted to catholicism when I left home. I grew agnostic when I visited Vatican City. I realized the truth when I came to sciforums. The way I see it is that by becoming atheist you don't lose anything, because there was nothing there in the first place.
 
AAF said:
Atheism is the NEGATION of theism; i.e. atheism = -(theism). That is a very BIG thing to deal with it collectively or to define it precisely.
Click to expand...
I know what atheism is.

Consider this! In logic, when you say (A), you always mean some definitive thing.
But when you negate (A), you get -(A). This minus (A) refers to everything else in the Universe, except that well-defined entity called (A). And so -(A) is really BIG.
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Yes. So?

Well, my 'atheism' couldn't possibly be incompatible with the Infinite Past; since it is based upon the Infinite Past.
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What? How? Present the logical process you went through to determine a coherent ""infinite past"", please....

As for swivel's 'atheism', I suppose it's based on the Big Bang. And since the Big Bang does not presuppose anything eternal before it, swivel's 'atheism' too has no problem with the Paradox of the Infinite Past, because it has no infinite past.
Click to expand...
The Big Bang is merely a hypothesis.

Regarding your other STATEMENT about 'time & the dead', it is not quite coherent; but I suppose what you really meant is, "can time resurrect the dead"?
Click to expand...
No, that's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about perception. Time is a matter of perception.



This stuff you wrote don't answer my question. I will ask again: How does atheism handle with the infinity of time?

And please connect atheism with the infinite time idea....
 
TruthSeeker said:
Time is not concrete. It's a concept. An abstraction.
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So, weight is not concrete? It is a concept? An abstraction?

Height is not concrete? It is a concept? An abstraction?

Volume is not concrete? It is a concept? An abstraction?


Time is very real. It is a measure of the change in state of a system. Since we know that systems change, time must exist.
 
Truthseeker:

Certainly it cannot be. For time allows the very death you speak about. Remembering it requires a shift from "non-dead" to "dead", which cannot take place in the same moment, hence, time.
 
Prince_James said:
Truthseeker:

Certainly it cannot be. For time allows the very death you speak about. Remembering it requires a shift from "non-dead" to "dead", which cannot take place in the same moment, hence, time.
Click to expand...


HEY! Prince James... you posted that BEFORE I could! How in the world...??? :confused:


Could you have quoted me, posting this hours later? Or could I only have quoted you, having posted yours hours previously? Why is only one possible? :rolleyes:
 
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