God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is all bulshit. There is no "potential" infinity. That's just a bad excuse to justify atheism. There's no distinction here. Both theists and atheists are working with the same outside reality. Regardless of what this reality is, neither one of those two groups actually KNOW what's going on. If anyone claims to understand how there can be an infinite past behind, then such a person is just a hipocritical idiot! ;)
 
This is all bulshit. There is no "potential" infinity. That's just a bad excuse to justify atheism. There's no distinction here. Both theists and atheists are working with the same outside reality. Regardless of what this reality is, neither one of those two groups actually KNOW what's going on. If anyone claims to understand how there can be an infinite past behind, then such a person is just a hipocritical idiot! ;)

How can you "Know" that nobody else "Knows"? What observations or information are you privy to that the rest of us are not?

Isn't - "There is no objective truth" - an Objective Truth?

Who is the hypocritical idiot? (who can't spell hypocritical, by the way)
 
This is all bulshit. There is no "potential" infinity. That's just a bad excuse to justify atheism. There's no distinction here. Both theists and atheists are working with the same outside reality. Regardless of what this reality is, neither one of those two groups actually KNOW what's going on. If anyone claims to understand how there can be an infinite past behind, then such a person is just a hipocritical idiot! ;)

:rolleyes:


Hi TruthSeeker:

'There is no potential infinity'?
I'm afraid you're losing your TRUTH seeking qualities!
What is your term for future infinity? Check this out:
http://www.math.vanderbilt.edu/~schectex/courses/thereals/potential.html

In any case, the Infinite Past is a DAUNTING problem only for the theories of Creation. Why did God wait for an infinite time to pass before starting Creation? That is the troublesome QUESTION?
Therefore, Swivel is right.

By the way, the 'bullshit' can be a very useful FUEL in treeless countries. Google for it!
Have a nice day!

:)
 
How can you "Know" that nobody else "Knows"? What observations or information are you privy to that the rest of us are not?

Isn't - "There is no objective truth" - an Objective Truth?

Who is the hypocritical idiot? (who can't spell hypocritical, by the way)
No no no no... *shakes head*

You don't understand. The universe is VERY big, ya know? And we are REALLY tiny. Our brains are even tinier. Now, for a tiny brain like ours to claim that we understand the universe, which is countless of times bigger then us... well... thats' just plain preposterous!

Please.... consider this when you think of your own knowledge. How much bigger or smaller is your knowledge compared to mine or any one's. Not much bigger considering the fact that we don't know more than 95% of what there is to know!!

So basically, everything is bullshit. What you say is bullshit. What other people say is bullshit. What I say is bullshit. Everything is bullshit. Just plain bullshit. That's all that there is. BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT! Because...... we don't know anything.


So next time someone claims that he or she knows anything in this universe, we should all shout together: BULLSHIT!!@!!!!!! :D

:m:
 
In any case, the Infinite Past is a DAUNTING problem only for the theories of Creation. Why did God wait for an infinite time to pass before starting Creation? That is the troublesome QUESTION?
Oh, so now the problem is only theological? :rolleyes:

No, p-lease. Think about it. Why did an infinite amount of past passed before anything happened. This is not a problem isolated to theologians. This is a fundamental philosophical paradox. An infinite past takes forever to become present for a theologian and for an atheist AS WELL. To deny that is like turning a blind eye to the problem.

We all share that one, mate... :cool:
 
^^^

Wrong. Only creation theories and cyclic cosmologies have the problem of infinite pasts. There is nothing illogical about a Big Bang that came out of nothing. There was not time or anything before the Big Bang. There was stasis. No time was passing. And *poof*, the first thing that ever happened was the Big Bang. All of matter and time was created, and the thing has been winding down and getting less interesting ever since.

Now, I'm not claiming that this is what happened, nor do I feel assured that we will ever know. But this does not violate logic or create a paradox. And you can't judge the behavior of a non-universe by using what we know of the universe. You can't say that "something can't come from nothing", because that is a rule that *seems* to be true for our universe, but we don't know what the rules are for non-universes. It could be that the only property of non-universes is that they create universes. And since there is no time (complete stasis, remember), this property happens "instantaneously". Again, I'm not pretending that this is accurate, but it is one of dozens of scenarios of the past that you can come up with that does not defy logic or create a paradox. Don't forget, whatever was here during the time of Stasis was undergoing different rules than the universe that you and I live in. But when we create a God, and give him the property of "Being Eternal", we can't grant him the same safety. He was never in stasis, so he creates a problem.

I don't think you have dwelt on this issue because the conclusion is not to your liking. And if you are only in protest for heart-felt reasons, what is the point in us discussing this? I want to learn more during my lifetime than I know right now. I want to know more than the men of 2,000 years ago knew. Don't you? Why in the world did you choose your screen-name if you have the philosophy that you are touting in this thread?

No no no no... *shakes head*

You don't understand. The universe is VERY big, ya know? And we are REALLY tiny. Our brains are even tinier. Now, for a tiny brain like ours to claim that we understand the universe, which is countless of times bigger then us... well... thats' just plain preposterous!

Please.... consider this when you think of your own knowledge. How much bigger or smaller is your knowledge compared to mine or any one's. Not much bigger considering the fact that we don't know more than 95% of what there is to know!!

So basically, everything is bullshit. What you say is bullshit. What other people say is bullshit. What I say is bullshit. Everything is bullshit. Just plain bullshit. That's all that there is. BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT! Because...... we don't know anything.


So next time someone claims that he or she knows anything in this universe, we should all shout together: BULLSHIT!!@!!!!!! :D

:m:

Isn't the claim "We don't know anything" subject to the same nihilistic reasoning? How do you get to be immune? How do you "Know" that we only know 5% of what there is to know?

Look, you have your claim, that nothing can be known. I have my claim that we can know something. If you are right, we are both wrong:

You | Me

0 ---- 0

If I am right, then I am right, and you are wrong:

You | Me

0 ---- 1

Averaging our scores, it looks like you are completely wrong, and I am half-right. So there.


Think of how small quarks are. Our brains are ENORMOUS.
 
Last edited:
No no no no... *shakes head*

You don't understand. The universe is VERY big, ya know? And we are REALLY tiny. Our brains are even tinier. Now, for a tiny brain like ours to claim that we understand the universe, which is countless of times bigger then us...

:m:

:rolleyes:

If your BRAIN is really TINY, then you have no WAY of knowing that the UNIVERSE is VERY big; right?
Therefore, your above objection is illogical and baseless.

:m:
 
In my mind when something about god is self-contradictory, one or both is not right.
 
In my mind when something about god is self-contradictory, one or both is not right.

Exactly the conclusion of my disproof of god. He can have one of the following, but not both:

1. God has always been around.
2. God created the universe.

These lead to a paradox, and yet every religion that I know of shares these two axioms.
 
...Big Bang...
Do you REALLY think the Big Bang hypothesis is correct...? :rolleyes:

Isn't the claim "We don't know anything" subject to the same nihilistic reasoning? How do you get to be immune? How do you "Know" that we only know 5% of what there is to know?
That is one more thing we DON'T know! ;)

But judging by the complexity of the universe, our brain capacity and our perceptive limitation- that is, we can only experience the earth out of the entire universe- then it is a lot more likely that we do not know most of what there is to know.


Look, you have your claim, that nothing can be known. I have my claim that we can know something. If you are right, we are both wrong:

You | Me

0 ---- 0

If I am right, then I am right, and you are wrong:

You | Me

0 ---- 1

Averaging our scores, it looks like you are completely wrong, and I am half-right. So there.
Or maybe you think that you know much, but in reality you know very little. So because of your inability to perceive your lack of knowledge, you determine that there is not much more to learn and you act on erroneous knowledge, putting you one step behind from knowing anything at all. In other words, it is worse to think you know something when in fact your knowledge is eroneous. Let's see your score.....

You | Me
-1 -----0

Looks like I'm winning now....! :D


Think of how small quarks are. Our brains are ENORMOUS.
That's a straw man.
 
These lead to a paradox, and yet every religion that I know of shares these two axioms.
Just pointing out an erroneous definition... :rolleyes: :D

By your perception, a "paradox" is simply illogical. Well, in reality, a "paradox" is something that is true but seemingly illogical. So just because you have a paradox, it doesn't mean that the argument is not valid- it just seems that it doesn't fit.
 
Oh, so now the problem is only theological?
No, p-lease. Think about it. Why did an infinite amount of past passed before anything happened. This is not a problem isolated to theologians. This is a fundamental philosophical paradox. An infinite past takes forever to become present for a theologian and for an atheist AS WELL. To deny that is like turning a blind eye to the problem.

We all share that one, mate...

:rolleyes:


The Infinite Past is only a PROBLEM for the Creationist. There can be no doubt about that.

Let's forget about the theologian and the atheist and the theist and the philosopher and the mathematician, for the time being. Why do you find the Infinite Past very troubling? It's because as you stated above an "infinite past takes forever to become present". This is almost always the TROUBLE that pops into one's head upon the first encounter with the notion of Infinite Past. And it's unbelievably startling and psychologically disturbing and destabilizing. I totally sympathize with you, truth-seeking 'BROTHER'! This problem is really serious. And so, it should be analyzed and discussed seriously and without any 'tiny-brain', 'no-one-knows', 'bullshit-bullshit' and the like of childish objections.

To have a firm grasp of the notion of Infinite Past, one must take into account the following considerations:

[1] The notion of Infinite Past is implied as a necessary logical consequence of the notion of Eternal. That is to say everything eternal implies necessarily an infinite past. And since the notion of Eternal is logically consistent and free of contradictions, the notion of Infinite Past must be logically consistent and free of contradictions as well.

[2] To get some feeling for the logical consistency of the notion of Infinite Past, you have to contrast it and think about it in conjunction with the notion of Absolute Beginning. This latter notion is far more troubling, because it leads to the immediate collapse of causality, logic, and reason. By contrast, the notion of Infinite Past is the ultimate guarantor of the absolute consistency of the Causality Principle and the laws of logic and the principles of reason forever and ever.

[3] You should not give a privileged and central ontological status to any moment of time. This very important point can be clearly illustrated by considering the notion of Infinite Space. No geometrical point of Infinite Space is entitled to being the center of the Universe or the absolute origin of its spatial co-ordinates. In the same way, no moment or instant of time is entitled to being the central moment of Eternity. The present moment, therefore, is not a privileged instant of Eternity.

[4] The usual way of arriving at the notion of Infinite Past is to start from the present and regress into the past endlessly. This procedure can be misleading in two ways. It can lead to the illusion of getting closer than the present moment to the Infinite Past. And that is illusory, because no matter how long any past is, it is always an exact ZERO in comparison to the Infinite Past. The regressing procedure, also, can make the imagination very tired and craving more and more for an absolute beginning. And of course, what the imagination wishes for, it can just make it happen, even if it is illogical and illusory!

[5] There is one specific mistake of logic that gives the idea of Infinite Past its nasty first feel. And the mistake is this: one looks at a finite thing and asks, how could it happen, if its past was infinite? But that is a mistake; because every finite thing is a part of infinite totality of things. It's precisely this infinite totality of things that requires necessarily an infinite amount of time to happen and to come into existence. In other words, infinite things need necessarily an infinite period of time to happen.

[6] It's absolutely necessary to keep an eye on the notion of Beginning and think about it constantly and explicitly at all times. Otherwise, this insidious notion is going to interject itself unnoticed into your thinking and ruin your philosophical deliberations about the Infinite Past. Look once again at this statement of yours: "An infinite past takes forever to become present". Can you spot what is wrong with it? Well, it's clear that the idea of the past for you always implies an implicit beginning. And so you've combined this implicit assumption of a beginning for every finite past with the idea of no beginning for the Infinite Past; and you've gotten a paradox. And hence, the paradox is only in your argument about the Infinite Past, and NOT in the notion of Infinite Past itself. Why should every past have a beginning? There is absolutely no logical justification for that implicit assumption. Get rid of it! And remember; beginnings are always for finite things; and non-beginnings are always for infinite things.


:)
 
Just pointing out an erroneous definition... :rolleyes: :D

By your perception, a "paradox" is simply illogical. Well, in reality, a "paradox" is something that is true but seemingly illogical. So just because you have a paradox, it doesn't mean that the argument is not valid- it just seems that it doesn't fit.

Wrong, friend. A paradox "may" be true, but only because of an exception found which defies the presumptions.

From the first online dictionary googled:
1. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
2. One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" Mary Shelley.
3. An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
4. A statement contrary to received opinion.

Look at what you said, which is that a paradox is true, implying that all of them are. You are extremely incorrect sir. I defy you to present 5 definitions which state that paradox's are always true.

Paradox's are useful in that they point to flaws in our assumptions. If you have a paradox, you are missing some data, or are assuming something is true, when it isn't. Such is the case for the existence of god.

I do applaud your effort to play semantic games since you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion. Well-played.
 
“ Originally Posted by Kendall
In my mind when something about god is self-contradictory, one or both is not right. ”
"Originally posted by swivel"
Exactly the conclusion of my disproof of god. He can have one of the following, but not both:

1. God has always been around.
2. God created the universe.

These lead to a paradox, and yet every religion that I know of shares these two axioms.

Kendall- I do not see the contradiction, god has always been around and along the way god created the universe, especially if energy can not be destroyed because then before the universe was created all the energy already existed just in a different form.
 
AAF:

Brilliant arguments for the infinite past. Truly, excellent job my good man.

I'd also add my arguments as presented in "A Justification of Time" in the philosophy section.
 
Prince James, you are aware that AAF disagrees with you on just about every point? He isn't arguing FOR the infinite past, he is arguing AGAINST it.

Kendall- I do not see the contradiction, god has always been around and along the way god created the universe, especially if energy can not be destroyed because then before the universe was created all the energy already existed just in a different form.

So... god existed for an infinite length of time before he got around to creating the universe?

Think harder on this.
 
His argument is only that the infinite past isn't paradoxical in nature. He may also agree with the idea, but does not say so explicitely.
 
3. An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.

4. A statement contrary to received opinion.
Huuuum.... :rolleyes:

Look at what you said, which is that a paradox is true, implying that all of them are. You are extremely incorrect sir. I defy you to present 5 definitions which state that paradox's are always true.
Nah... I don't remember any paradoxes right now. Why don't you come up with 1 paradox that is not true? (Other then the one we are discussing, because I obviously disagree that this paradox is not true.)

Paradox's are useful in that they point to flaws in our assumptions. If you have a paradox, you are missing some data, or are assuming something is true, when it isn't. Such is the case for the existence of god.
A paradox is only an indication that your awareness is limited. Remember that all paradoxes are based on valid deductionsfrom acceptable premises. The paradox IS true. The problem is that you are missing some data that explains WHY it is true. The missing data gives you the illusion that the paradox is an unsound argument.

I do applaud your effort to play semantic games since you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion. Well-played.
Everything is semantics- from the first word you type to the last one.

Grow up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top