God does exist.

I believe that God was created by humans as an explenation for fenomenon that couldn't be otherwize explained and also as a denial of our own mortality.
Religion is the classic way of controling a human population and is still used today as a very powerful political tool. When you controll God, you controll the people. You make god say 'give up your comforts and slave away for your leaders' we do so in the beliefe that it will make us better people and let us live forever.
Ofcourse this is not so much the case today anymore, but it's these teachings that are still present in much of modern religion.

For example the form of the christian bible has changed over the years to best suit certain desires that rulers might have, and also the interpretaion by preists is not governed by divine grace, but rather the gold coin.

Ok, so this is quite historical, but this is why I am critical towards religion, religion is based on a loooong history of people enslaving other people by controlling the very way they think.

Not theism mind, nothing wrong with believing in god, just HOW you believe is the question.
The Bible? I don't think so.
 
As i was saying a million times, science only researches things that already exist, but does not know how it exist to begin with......

And you think religion does? Science can make up some kind of answer for how and why we are here, then it would be on par with religion. I could say that aliens from Galaxy X came over and started life on Earth, in the same way you can say some mysterious invisible supernatural being created us for no apparent reason.

Creationism provies an answer, but we have no way of knowing if it's the right answer. You're putting down scientists for being less gullible than creationists, you may want to rethink your strategy here.
 
Originally posted by Xelios
And you think religion does? Science can make up some kind of answer for how and why we are here, then it would be on par with religion. I could say that aliens from Galaxy X came over and started life on Earth, in the same way you can say some mysterious invisible supernatural being created us for no apparent reason.

Creationism provies an answer, but we have no way of knowing if it's the right answer. You're putting down scientists for being less gullible than creationists, you may want to rethink your strategy here.

I guess my point have finally landed on your head...

Earlier I have asked you to prove to me Shakespeare exist...Tons of evidence was given to me, from substancial evidence (such as physical healing of faith) to the legacy shakespeare left behind, writings, paintings, etc.(like complex and functioning existence, proper governing laws, etc..)...
Bottom line here is you cant really prove shakespeare exist, but you can prove that "someone" in his place exist, whether you call him "waldo" or "Moe", it is proven that person exist, since you cant really prove shakespeare exist, YOU CAN ONLY HAVE FAITH THAT SHAKESPEARE EXIST, simple...
The same with "Intelligent Design", you cant prove that his name is "God", but it is proven that there is a intelligent designer, the giver of life, proven as much as evolution and shakepeare, alot of questions can be posted against God, same goes for evolution, big bang, shakespeare, etc..You can call him "Giant purple squid monkey" or "chupacabra monoxide hydrant" whatever you call him, but bottom line "intelligent designer" exist...AND YOU CAN ONLY HAVE FAITH THAT THE GIVER OF LIFE IS "GOD", BUT AGAIN FOR ME IT IS A FACT THAT GOD EXIST, BECAUSE OF WHAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY NOT ALL HAVE...


you say "God is not proven"? then I say "King henry is not proven either"...You say "Creationist is not proven?" I say "Evolution is not proven either.." both have the same valid points......

SO WHATS YOUR FAITH? WHERE'S YOUR FAITH TAKING YOU?


CHRISTMASS IS COMING, ANOTHER LEGACY GOD LEFT BEHIND, LIKE "4TH OF JULY, AND SHAKESPEARE'S WRITINGS.." THERE WAS A MAN BORN BY THE NAME OF JESUS, WHO CHANGED THE WORLD....CALL HIM "PSYCHO" CALL HIM "ORDINARY" BUT I CALL HIM "THE WORD".......
 
Originally posted by James R
Jan: <i>What exactly are the processes? At what stage does it become life?</i>

In an animal such as a human being, the blood must circulate to carry oxygen to the body. When it stops, cells die and the system starts breaking down. Surely you know this? Stop breathing and you die. It's not that hard.


I meant what are the processess that make life come into being from chemicals, and at what stage did it stop being dull matter and become life as we know it today.

Yes, but the Dogon statements were not of an uncommon type, and were rather non-specific. Tribal mythologies often include this type of thing.

That is only your oppinion. It still remains that what they claimed, proved to be factual. How could they have got such intricate detail about the size, position and weight of the star, from such a long time ago?

I find the idea that they are currently or have ever in the past visited Earth fantastic.

Why?

Were you abducted, Jan? Do tell.

Nothing so elaborate my friend. :p

If that is the case, why aren't we being visited today?

How can you ask such a question, there are millions of eye witness testimonies, from very credible sources who have experienced ET's.

(What's a nommo?)

It is the name of the speicies of humanoid which visited the Dogon, or one of the names.

That's a rather <i>ad hoc</i> rationalisation, don't you think?

Just a hyperthetical scenario as put foreward by conspiracy theorists, nothing serious. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Moonman, the Bible is based on the most ancient manuscripts available, and is constantly retranslated to make it more accurate. It is not being changed (at least not by the people who take it very seriously). Otherwise "discrepancies", such as who Joseph's father was, would have been edited long ago. All Biblical translation is done under the motto: "the text knows better than we do." Compare the manuscripts from which the Bible is compiled with Julius Caesar’s "Gallic Wars". Only ten copies written about 1000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24000 New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ. It has also been preserved in one form for much longer than any other collection of texts (cf. the Dead Sea Scrolls, which might not even be considered authoritive, but is nontheless confirmative).

You say the Bible is supposed to create a political advantage? How does honestly denying yourself and following God make anybody a popular ruler? If anything, saying that you are a Christian ruler and being exposed as not following the Way makes you a hypocrite to your own shame, and not to the shame of religion. People follow God to the honour of his Name, and shun God to their own shame. "You cannot serve both God and mammon".

Also, where a "god" was needed to explain something that could not be understood otherwise, there inevitably arose other gods to explain other unrelated things, and myths to explain the gods themselves. The monotheistic explanation makes no sense where a god is a necessary solution. Compare the function of gods in all religions, and you will see that where gods are supposed to fill a void in understanding, they invariably are as fickle and undeserving as the thing they are meant to represent. Even more tellingly, such a god/gods would serve human needs, and change according to the need they fulfill. The God of Abraham and of Adam & Eve consistently and specifically reinforced His singular authority, and persistently discouraged polytheistm and idolatry. He gave both victory and defeat, and is impartial. How can this be beneficial to someone who clearly does not follow this God by being in search of his own honour?

\-----------------------\

Back to the evolution topic. So life started when chemicals such as aminoacids miraculously (is the word fobidden? :) combined to form DNA (the code of life). Can such a code evolve from nothing? Under what circumstances did dead aminoacids start to form living proteins, without that code?

Also, evolution would have had to happen in "broad daylight", because it could not have happened in a closed system (where disorder increases). The bombardment of energy from the sun initiated the process. So we do have a sun-god. One that will eventually die and let us die with it.
 
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
What exactly are the processes?
Get a Biology 101 text and start reading, it's a bit too in depth to get into here.

At what stage does it become life?
Excellent question. Fact is, the distinction is quite blurry. Prions, for instance, share some qualities with the organisms we call alive. Yet we don't consider them alive. Viruses, share even more qualities, but most of the time they are not considered to be truly alive either. Keep in mind that 'life' as it is used in science is a categorization... it all depends on where you draw the line.

Apart from the fact you are being assumptive by stating that evidence would be needed
Well gee, what else do you use to determine the veracity of a proposition, a warm feeling in your tummy?

you have failed to answer my question which was: “but it could do….right?”
No, read it again. I did answer your question: "Without evidence it is purely an assumption. While I would not go so far as to say that existence and intervention of a supernatural entity is absolutely impossible I find it highly improbable and the assertion to be incredibly presumptuous"

You are being arrogant, you have no idea whether or not the supernatural exists, by your own indirect statement, how could you possibly know whether or not it is “highly improbable,” as you have never experience it.
Because I've never experienced it and there is no discernable proof of such a thing as the supernatural. All the 'proof' offered regarding the supernatural boils down to unverified hearsay and other unsubstantiated claims and I have no reason to believe the claims of these people over my own experiences and the empirical studies that have been undertaken.

Your use of the terms mundane and fantastic, is ONLY your oppinion.
Well, I don't know about you but extraterrestrial visitation hardly seems to be a commonplace occurrence from my POV. Instead, assuming it does occur, it seems a rather exceptional event. But then, maybe you're one of those people who gets "taken" every couple of years. In which case it may indeed be a mundane experience for you.

You mean which “you” are using here.
No, I mean we, the people holding this discussion. We're speaking about biology. If you wish to use some other definition you need to indicate it and we can break off into another tangent.

if you really are interested, look back through our conversations and bring up points, and I will gladly answer them.
I did ask a question but I'll put it to you differently this time. What is the BG definition of life?

The claims of the Dogon tribe were facts, as it was later proved.
So was the scientific hypothesis that was posited about 170 years before it was confirmed. Not bad for something as silly as science. Additionally, these Dogon beliefs have not all been verified... some have been proven incorrect. Here's a site that I find presents the information a bit more even handedly than most 'pro' or 'con' sites:
http://www.geocities.com/martinclutt/

She called the idea "absurd" and displayed a 400-year-old Dogon object that clearly indicated Sirius and its companion stars.”
People have a tendency to claim all kinds of things when defending their "faith". I'm a realist... show me. If she has the proof then bring it out for examination and testing. Prove that it's 400 years old. Prove that it truly represents Sirius-B. Hey, I'm all for new discovery and this would be a fascinating one but I don't believe something just because someone claims that it's true.

Of course that could be a possibility, but it would indicate that the Dogon tribe are liars, and I have no reason to believe that.
Why should they be liars, much more likely they are simply mistaken or perhaps there was a bit of confusion and misunderstanding on the parts of both the Dogon and the interpreters.

It would seem strange that young men at wartime would spend their time talking to a primitive tribe of people about a newly discovered star system.
Yea, and the idea that aliens spent their time talking to primitive tribesmen so much more reasonable. :rolleyes: No wonder we have such trouble agreeing upon things.

As I said before, “fantastic” is relative, I do not find the idea of beings from other worlds fantastic in the least
Nor do I.... only the assertion that they are flying over here for sneaky visits to impart practically useless knowledge to select groups of humans. Because the orbit of Sirius-B is so much more important in their daily lives than say the germ theory of disease.

in fact when I was younger I had an experience with what I later realised was not a human being, but that is another story.
Sounds like a very interesting story.

I find the notion that young men in wartime would sit and discuss this whole thing with a tribe, and then for the elders of the tribe to turn it into a religion, fantastic.
Perhaps the religion and the myth that the people came from the stars predated the 'knowledge' of Sirius-B. Most cultures have fantastical origin stories, several including the idea that they came from the stars. Indeed this would make it very likely that they would discuss stars when they came into contact with other people.

You are a skeptic, it your job to find things unlikely.
You misunderstand then what a skeptic does. A skeptic simply examines all things diligently and honestly, accepting little to nothing without question. What I find foolish are those who are willing to accept so many things based purely upon the word of other people.

How do you know that the tribe and nommas are not connected through lineage.
I don't know. Of course it would be a relatively simple process to check the DNA of the Dogon for traces of alien DNA. But why would I assume such a claim is true until it is proven? If I claimed to be the love child of a female alien from Arcturus and Elvis Presley would you believe me? If you don't believe me; why? If so, you are at the very least a rather gullible person.

You automatically use your own experience to judge every experience and what you cannot comprehend you basically dismiss.
So do we all... or do you use someone else's experience? :rolleyes: But I do not dismiss anything without consideration. Also, not to sound arrogant, but there are relatively few things that I cannot comprehend and thus far I have been able to comprehend everything I have set myself to understanding.

That is pure arrogance my friend. If you read about it you will realise that they taught them much more, in fact the dogon tribe are more excited about the sun and moon.
I have read about it, long before you brought it up here. What I would like to know it whether you ever even considered any critical treatments of the claim or if you just decided that it fit into your belief system and accepted it without analysis. Have you ever read "Dogon Restudied" by Walter EA van Beek, or searched out other critical sites?

You mean after we got passed the “I’m a skeptic gimmie the evidence song and dance.”
I find it so strange that people find critical analysis to be a bad thing.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
I dont know about her freaken so-called "intelligence like humans", I believe its all publicity and attention ($$$$)...
Why don't you take the time then to know what it is you're talking about.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. You rely solely upon your beliefs so you don't need to bother learning anything.

:rolleyes:

~Raithere
 
Jenyar-

Obviously you've done more research into this then I have ;)

But you cannot deny that the Spannish slaughtered the Incas in the name of God(for their Gold). 100 years ago Africans were still considered by many as less-human because of their skin colour as they were thought to be 'not of the immage of god'. The Vatican is rolling over under the weight of them selves from all the MONEY they have. Al'Quaida members crashed into the WTC in the the name of their religion.
And Bush still names God when he preps the US to go and bomb Iraq.
Religion IS a political tool, and people are remarkably stupid and easy to convince unfortunately.
It's very scary what a good leader can get people to do (ie. Hittler).

You should have the right to believe what you want to believe, and remember to question everything, especialy that which you are told not to question (ie. the existance of God).
This is simply what I'm saying.
 
Originally posted by Raithere
Well gee, what else do you use to determine the veracity of a proposition, a warm feeling in your tummy?

Well Duh!!! :mad:
Supernatural indicates more than natural, not of the laws of nature, unless you have experienced it, how can you know what to expect?
It may be direct perception, applicable only to the person involved, and therefore evidence would not be needed. ;)

While I would not go so far as to say that existence and intervention of a supernatural entity is absolutely impossible I find it highly improbable and the assertion to be incredibly presumptuous"

Please tell me, as you obviously have some idea, what is a supernatural entity?
And the fact that you find it highly improbable and incredibly presumptuous………….wow!! :rolleyes:

No, I mean we, the people holding this discussion. We're speaking about biology. If you wish to use some other definition you need to indicate it and we can break off into another tangent.

No, we’re talking about life, what is life, how does it come about, what is its purpose etc…
I’m afraid biology cannot enter into such an arena unless it has some real answers that relate to our experience of life.

Well, I don't know about you but extraterrestrial visitation hardly seems to be a commonplace occurrence from my POV.

Exactly, from your POV! :rolleyes:
But it is a common place occurrance, there are millions of eye witness testimonies.

But then, maybe you're one of those people who gets "taken" every couple of years. In which case it may indeed be a mundane experience for you.

Yeah maybe! :rolleyes:

What is the BG definition of life?

That is quite a silly question, as you, me and every living thing is the definition of life, a more intelligent question would be; what is the origin of life? By knowing the origin you know everything.

Chapter 4, Verse 35.
And when you have thus learned the truth, you will know that all living beings are but part of Me--and that they are in Me, and are Mine.

Chapter 2, Verse 13.
As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.

Chapter 3, Verse 10.
In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Visnu, and blessed them by saying…..

Chapter 7, Verse 4.
Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego--all together these eight comprise My separated material energies.

Chapter 7, Verse 6.
Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution.

Chapter 7, Verse 10.
O son of Prtha, know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.

Chapter 9, Verse 5.
.............I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation.

Chapter 9, Verse 6.
As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me.

Chapter 9, Verse 8.
The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.

Yea, and the idea that aliens spent their time talking to primitive tribesmen so much more reasonable. No wonder we have such trouble agreeing upon things.

I see what you mean, primitive tribesmen, puh! they are of little importance, what do they know eh?
The bastards must be lying. :p

Nor do I.... only the assertion that they are flying over here for sneaky visits to impart practically useless knowledge to select groups of humans. Because the orbit of Sirius-B is so much more important in their daily lives than say the germ theory of disease.

Sneaky visits?
Useless knowledge?
The germ theory of disease?

You make me laugh Rait, your okay mate! :p :D

Sounds like a very interesting story.

Not really, very ordinary. :(

…..but there are relatively few things that I cannot comprehend and thus far I have been able to comprehend everything I have set myself to understanding.

And modest with it too! :rolleyes:

I find it so strange that people find critical analysis to be a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with critical analasys, as we speak I am critically analysing the theory of evolution.
It is just that some things cannot be empirically proven, it is just not possible, life being one of those things. As human beings we have more ways of accessing knowledge than with our eyes. We have talked about love, which is very real, but cannot be proven to anyone other than the lover and beloved.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
I guess my point have finally landed on your head...

What point MM? That you can provide an answer as to why we exist? I can do that too. We exist because a purple alien came to Earth and created our ancestors in test tubes. Can you disprove this? No? Then perhaps you finally see my point.
 
Marc AC

"Now in 4 dimensions I could say an electron if I consider the unit of time to be one second - within one second an electron can be in thousnds of 'places'. Definitions are key French."

Ok, i see your point. But, as you say, definitions are everything, as is the definition of "time". I said things cannot be in two different places at ONE TIME. The fourth dimention is nowhere near proved, but even if it was, I would have to label that "fourth" dimention as Time, thus keeping consistency with my statement. Also, if there was a fourth dimention like you had outlined, then every little electron in each instant would be different electrons in a sort of way.

"Not really, paradoxes = thought (paradoxes have lead to many advancements in math. and science knowledge)"

Um, yeah. The reason for these advances is because they had to rework the theories so that paradoxes did not happen. Paradoxes = bad, therefore we fix theories with them in it.

----why can't you just tell me what you think I don't know?
-----------------------------------------------------

"I did"

No, you didn't. You told me where you think it comes from (god) and also told me that I don't know what love is. You did not define it, so.....?

"And French, God requires that you seek proof."

And he expects me to do this, why? Doesn't he realize that us reasonable people like to have a reason for doing something. None of us humans will seek out anything that they don't believe will help them, seriously. Even the most generous missions are only a quest to appease their own mind's hunger for that good I-helped-people feeling.

"so basically you live like animals on the Serengeti plains or Botswana, Africa - eating each other "

What The Hell are you talking about?

"why do you have faith in your reasoning? I only place my faith in God"

I place my faith in my reasoning because otherwise I would not be able to do anything, think, move, REASON. It is the core of my existance. It is what makes me able to survive. If I didn't trust my reasoning, then I couldn't educate myself, I couldn't decide anything, I would be worse than a genuine retard.

Any you DO place faith in your reasoning too. What else would you use to decide you have faith in god? You wouldn't be able to interpret those voices in your head you call god. you would simply not survive if you didn't trust your reasoning. Your reasoning GIVES you the power to trust and distrust. It is like not trusting in your lungs, you die without them.

"You should trust your reason more than mine."

And that I do. But I might have your reason so that I can "reason" whether your reason is a good one or not.

"you are a narrow-minded ass."

Hmm.... not an insult I suppose?

"Would you exist then? Or would it just be a couple of electrical impulses travelling from a to b to ?"

I would still exist, it just wouldn't be the me I thought it was.

"It can't?"

NO, by definition, an opinion cannot be proven. A fact can be proven (true or false).
 
Originally posted by Daiel Hegarty
I believe that God exists. Do you not believe in him because of scence? Well you can believe anything you want but there is scientific evidence of Jesus, Noahs Ark, and alot more religeous happenings and people. Some of the most famous scolars like Einstein and Newton believe in God. If you don't believe because of science thnk about that. There has also been scientific proof of angels also.

thank you.

Not only do I believe in God, but also Jesus and the Holy spirit. Staying on track with the God subject, lets address a subject like astronomy. This is a good one. Look through a telescope. What does one see? Trillions upon trillions of stars and galaxies that follow a set path of natural laws. Nothing happened by chance. There is a set order to everything. Some would say the big bang was chaos from nothing, or was it? Science can prove even it followed the process of natural laws. Science is not a bad thing. It explains much about the world we live in. The possible anomousity you have about science is shared by me. It is when people use the knowledge of science as a tool to debunk the existance of God, desipite all the physical evidence to the contrary, and raise science up as some tin plated god to be worshiped, that guys like me are going to come out of the woodwork and start defending God.

Gino
 
Jan:

Life exists on a continuum, and different people draw the arbitrary line which divides life from non-life at different places on that continuum.

Some would say that a virus is alive.
Some say a prion is alive.
Some say a protein is alive.
Others disagree.

It all depends on your definition of "alive".

All that seems to be needed for life is a sufficient level of biological complexity. What that level is depends on where you set the bar. The important point is that the transition from non-life to life is only a small step across whatever boundary you set.
 
Re: Re: God does exist.

Originally posted by Gino
Not only do I believe in God, but also Jesus and the Holy spirit. Staying on track with the God subject, lets address a subject like astronomy. This is a good one. Look through a telescope. What does one see? Trillions upon trillions of stars and galaxies that follow a set path of natural laws. Nothing happened by chance. There is a set order to everything. Some would say the big bang was chaos from nothing, or was it? Science can prove even it followed the process of natural laws. Science is not a bad thing. It explains much about the world we live in. The possible anomousity you have about science is shared by me. It is when people use the knowledge of science as a tool to debunk the existance of God, desipite all the physical evidence to the contrary, and raise science up as some tin plated god to be worshiped, that guys like me are going to come out of the woodwork and start defending God.

Gino

I have never seen or heard of a scientists try to use science to debunk the existence of god. You know that someone can't use science to show that god exists, or that he doesn't exist. The physical evidence you are talking about is not evidence of god it can only be evidence of it's self.
 
Re: Re: Re: God does exist.

Originally posted by seesaw
I have never seen or heard of a scientists try to use science to debunk the existence of god. You know that someone can't use science to show that god exists, or that he doesn't exist. The physical evidence you are talking about is not evidence of god it can only be evidence of it's self.

If I may ask a question. In scripture it says God is a God of order, not chaos. Pretty strait forward in black and white scriptural context. Why can't the order of nature be proof of a higher power, or master clock maker if you know what I mean? Without order, where would physics, math, chemistry, biology, etc. be? These are disclipines of order. High order. Do you believe they evolved by chance? If mankind discovered these things, they had to have been hidden from mental sight from the beginning of time.

Gino
 
Who says nature is ordered? Quantum physics for one states that randomness is much, much more previlant than order in the universe.

I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make. Are you saying God must exist because nature contains some degree of order?
 
Originally posted by Xelios
Who says nature is ordered? Quantum physics for one states that randomness is much, much more previlant than order in the universe.

I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make. Are you saying God must exist because nature contains some degree of order?


For me, the observation of order is intrensicly tied to this scriptural point brought up. For those things that are ordered, one thing is for certain. The physical laws cannot be broken. That means there have been rules set down. I don't know the first thing about quantum physics, since I have only studied it on freshman college level. Of course what I am stating is from personnal experience. Not everyone shares the same views. That's ok.

Gino
 
Originally posted by James R
Jan:

Life exists on a continuum, and different people draw the arbitrary line which divides life from non-life at different places on that continuum.

Some would say that a virus is alive.
Some say a prion is alive.
Some say a protein is alive.
Others disagree.

It all depends on your definition of "alive".

All that seems to be needed for life is a sufficient level of biological complexity. What that level is depends on where you set the bar. The important point is that the transition from non-life to life is only a small step across whatever boundary you set.

That is what it boils down to JR, your quite right.
All we have is our own experience of what is life.

Why do you think ET's wouldn't come to earth?

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Back
Top