God’s glitch in Eden. A & E had to break God’s second command to accomplish the first

sideshowbob said:
I suggested the possibility that Adam and Eve did have sex before eating the fruit. I used The Blue Lagoon as an example of the credibility of that possibility. If you haven't seen the movie and can't Google it, I'll be happy to elaborate. If there's something I haven't responded to, feel free to specify and I'll elaborate on that too.
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The bulk of my last post was in response to:

Sex isn't rocket science or aviation. It is, quite obviously, something that can be done without the knowledge of good and evil and it is done without the knowledge of good and evil by every species on earth except for man.
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I was essentially exploring the usefulness of this statement to make sense of the idea that Adam and Eve could be intelligent sexually mature adults without the ability to make the sort of moral choices that everyone makes today.
 
Ok, so why would merely "knowing" something make it evil all of a sudden?

Adam and Eve have sex. Everything's great. They eat an apple from the tree of knowledge. Ok.
Now, they "know" what sex is. But, considering they're the only two humans in the whole universe...chances are they are monogamous.

So. What have they done wrong?

Why is sex moral one minute and then after eating of the tree of knowledge, it's not?

This is more of a fly in the ointment for us theists than you atheists!
Just sayin! :D
 
wegs said:
Ok, so why would merely "knowing" something make it evil all of a sudden?

Adam and Eve have sex. Everything's great. They eat an apple from the tree of knowledge. Ok.
Now, they "know" what sex is. But, considering they're the only two humans in the whole universe...chances are they are monogamous.

So. What have they done wrong?

Why is sex moral one minute and then after eating of the tree of knowledge, it's not?

This is more of a fly in the ointment for us theists than you atheists!
Just sayin! :D
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The greater issue is that the game was actually rigged anyway. As a former Christian myself I used to make sense of it in the following way: God's end-game was to have his own counterpart, just like all the animals had one, and just like Adam had one. That counterpart was to be a bunch of people whom, given a real choice, would decide to be with him. Thus man had to be in a state where that choice was possible. Thus the fall had to happen. Thus God set things up so it would.

It does of course raise some other obvious issues though.
 
Lol @ the game was rigged :D

You make me laugh!

The story is ok in metaphor. But, it just doesn't work as a literal representation of man and the virtues of morality.
Because it paints God as an Ogre waiting to smite us.
:/

But, it can show free will and cause and effect.

The religious component of this is that these two "ruined" it for the rest of us.

Huh?

So, we are all born with "original sin?"

:confused:
 
sideshowbob said:
That's your twist on the story, not the point that the author intended to make. If you read the story as written (or at least as it has been transmited to us) your claim isn't there.
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You do not think God a prick for putting Satan right beside Eve, with his God given power to deceive the whole world, and when Eve is tempted as she cannot resist such power, God follows through by murdering them both through neglect.

If you do not think that God a prick then your morals are of the lower animals whom you say have none.

What is that God to you?
A good father?

Regards
DL
 
wegs said:
Lol @ the game was rigged :D

You make me laugh!

The story is ok in metaphor. But, it just doesn't work as a literal representation of man and the virtues of morality.
Because it paints God as an Ogre waiting to smite us.
:/

But, it can show free will and cause and effect.

The religious component of this is that these two "ruined" it for the rest of us.

Huh?

So, we are all born with "original sin?"

:confused:
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Rigged, yes.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God knew before A & E were even created that they would sin and he put Satan in Eden to make damned sure that they did just that.

Seems being creator was not enough for us to adore his immoral ass. So he devised Eden to also make himself our savior after condemning us in his rigged game.

If you have that many doubts and uncomfortable conclusions, why are you a theist?

Regards
DL
 
My doubts have more to do with how the bible was compiled...and by who.

In a nutshell....why do I believe?

Science says uncaused and I say..hmmm...I believe there is a Cause. A Creator.

From personal reasons to non personal reasons, that is why.

Now...Don't judge me! ;)
 
wegs said:
My doubts have more to do with how the bible was compiled...and by who.

In a nutshell....why do I believe?

Science says uncaused and I say..hmmm...I believe there is a Cause. A Creator.

From personal reasons to non personal reasons, that is why.

Now...Don't judge me! ;)
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I tried but can't help myself.

Not being an atheist, I can understand that you have a spiritual itch to scratch.

Why you would want to choose a genocidal son murdering God is beyond me though.

Not only do I not have to deal with things like this that you have to ---

[video=youtube;G_-nHw0_Fos]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&feature=player_embedded[/video]

---the God I know allows me to find the best moral position and stick to it.

I urge you to sort of switch. Not so much from Christianity but to a new way of following Jesus that the churches never teach.

The right way and a way that is close to what gave me my apotheosis.

[video=youtube;FdSVl_HOo8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y[/video]

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am....I appreciate your diplomacy. ^^
Thank you. :eek:
 
Rav said:
I was essentially exploring the usefulness of this statement to make sense of the idea that Adam and Eve could be intelligent sexually mature adults without the ability to make the sort of moral choices that everyone makes today.
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Once again, that idea is the gist of the story. You must find science fiction very confusing. :)

Imagine a world with only two humans, one male and one female. There is no culture. There is no knowledge base for them to work from. All there is is curiosity (which we are assuming is innate in humans). The curiosity will lead to exploration and experimentation. Some experimentation may be pleasurable and some may not. Unsurprisingly, they will continue what is pleasurable and discontinue what is not.

There is no need for prior knowledge. They will invent sex on their own, quite naturally. As I suggested in another post, most of us invent masturbation exactly like that. Most of us also "play doctor" and would invent sexual intercourse just as naturally if we weren't surrounded by a society that insists on stopping us from doing it but inundates us with information about it.

If you understand the science-fiction setting of the Adam and Eve story you can see how wrong the OP is.
 
wegs said:
My doubts have more to do with how the bible was compiled...and by who.

In a nutshell....why do I believe?

Science says uncaused and I say..hmmm...I believe there is a Cause. A Creator.

From personal reasons to non personal reasons, that is why.

Now...Don't judge me! ;)
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If a creator is eternal, that also means the universe is uncaused. But then the universe could be eternal.
 
Greatest I am said:
You do not think God a prick for putting Satan right beside Eve, with his God given power to deceive the whole world, and when Eve is tempted as she cannot resist such power, God follows through by murdering them both through neglect.
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Satan isn't even in the story. You're attacking the embellishments of Dante, Milton, et al., not the Bible.

There is a snake who plays a role similar to the role played by Satan in other stories but the snake doesn't deceive Eve; he tells her the truth:
Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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God Himself confirms that it is true:
Gen 3:22-23 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
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God may have lied or he may have changed His mind; the story isn't clear on that.
 
sideshowbob said:
Once again, that idea is the gist of the story. You must find science fiction very confusing. :)

If you understand the science-fiction setting of the Adam and Eve story you can see how wrong the OP is.
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At least science fiction makes sense. :D ;)

spidergoat said:
If a creator is eternal, that also means the universe is uncaused. But then the universe could be eternal.
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Wouldn't the Creator be the cause?
:confused:
 
wegs said:
While I understand the "uncaused" theory, a light bulb just went off that what u are saying: the universe doesn't need to have a cause to exist. How do we reconcile "cause and effect" then?
Just curious.
Yup!
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One way is to notice that it begins when the clock starts ticking. There is no clock at the instant of creation - no time, no cause, no effect.
 
sideshowbob said:
Once again, that idea is the gist of the story. You must find science fiction very confusing. :)

Imagine a world with only two humans, one male and one female. There is no culture. There is no knowledge base for them to work from. All there is is curiosity (which we are assuming is innate in humans). The curiosity will lead to exploration and experimentation. Some experimentation may be pleasurable and some may not. Unsurprisingly, they will continue what is pleasurable and discontinue what is not.

There is no need for prior knowledge. They will invent sex on their own, quite naturally. As I suggested in another post, most of us invent masturbation exactly like that. Most of us also "play doctor" and would invent sexual intercourse just as naturally if we weren't surrounded by a society that insists on stopping us from doing it but inundates us with information about it.

If you understand the science-fiction setting of the Adam and Eve story you can see how wrong the OP is.
Click to expand...

You forget Eves hymen.

What natural inclination could cause a man, --- if Adam was a man and not a boy but the question applies either way, --- who knows nothing of sex, would make him think it is natural to try to poke skin right through with his penis?

This I gotta hear. :)

Regards
DL
 
sideshowbob said:
Satan isn't even in the story. You're attacking the embellishments of Dante, Milton, et al., not the Bible.

There is a snake who plays a role similar to the role played by Satan in other stories but the snake doesn't deceive Eve; he tells her the truth:
​
God Himself confirms that it is true:
​
God may have lied or he may have changed His mind; the story isn't clear on that.
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I agree completely here. The Christians got it wrong.

We are discussion from the Christian view of a fall so we have to ignore what you and I know is true. They do not agree.

Regards
DL
 
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