Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ

surenderer said:
I think what he is saying is that Jesus(pbuh) had no thoughts about founding a church.

No. Christ said there would be a Narrow Way. Christ said there would be a Wheat Field of Wheat and Tares. Christ DID want an organization, but prophecized that it would become largely hijacked and corrupt.

Christ showed every tendency toward organization. John the Baptist had an Organization. With the Baptism, Christ was able to capture John the Baptist's endorcement. If we believe the Gospels, Christ selected out of his large following 12 Leaders. At one time the Gospels tell us that Christ sent out groups of Teachers.

What I am saying was that Christ was establishing a New Judaic Dispensation. What we got was a Gentile Church that sprung out of a small aberrational Franchise Letter that was given to a non-Apostle because of extraordinary fund-raising abilities. Read Acts. Paul was rewarded for being a good fundraiser. We should not have our Doctrines dictated to us by somebody whose only qualification is that he is good on the shake-down.
 
the preacher said:
when I read you reply to pavlos I was shocked you have no proof of anything,
you quoted from a book.
and then to compound it with modern hearsay (no proof) .


and the last paragraph is terrible, how can you say the all the people who were tortured to death, and all the people who died in some extremely nasty way's, deserve it.
because of your statement I can only hope, that none of the extreme suffering that has happened to innocent people, every happen's to you or your family.
in you religious words "GOD HELP YOU"

What proof do you want. Paul never proved anything and look how many people listened to him.
 
Enigma'07 said:
There is no such thing as innocents.

Sure there are. Look in the Book of Revelation. Christ will be accompanied in Heaven by a large detachment of 10,000 or 100,000 Innocents.

There was the Heretic Pelegius who was a Bishop before he was a Heretic. His heresy was to suppose that people could remain sinless if they tried. Sin is not necessary.

I wonder that Paulist's can't see that Paul is the Antichrist when his foundational Doctrine is that to be a Christian it is necessary first to be a Sinner. You think that Satan would rather approve of such a Doctrine that would make all members of a Quasi-Religion to first raise their hands and swear to be Sinners. Christ probably would rather have had us pledge to be Righteous, don't you think?
 
altec said:
Sounds to me that your beef isn't with democracy, but with capitalism. All of the things that you gripe about that you say are inherant with a democracy, are all things that happen in capitalist systems. You may want to get you facts stright. ;)

It is true that Civilizations topple on issues of Concentation of Wealth and the destruction of mechanisms for taxation and the funding of public infrastructures. However, Oligarches have typically used Democratic Institutions and Propaganda to arrive at the control where they can finally do their damage of channelling all wealth away from the Public Good.
 
Leo Volont said:
With the approaching Second Coming, we may be in for an awkward moment for many. We need to remember that it was Paul, and not Jesus Christ, who set the Doctrinal Tone for the Catholic and especially for the Protestant Church’s.
... He might point out that He never taught any Doctrine of Salvation or Redemption that signified that Humanity was to be rewarded for having murdered Him, and that He never gave the slightest hint that He would distribute such an infinite benefit for so flatly having rejected the First Messianic Dispensation.

I am not familiar with any serious writings of Jesus' teachings not written by someone who proclaimed to be His follower. How can you make any commentary on something you have associated with modern organized religion. You cannot both proclaim Jesus as supernatural and undermine the practices of the authors of the only text you have to support your own claims.

Your arguement defeats itself. Unless you say that seperate from biblical teachings you believe in a guy named Jesus that's comming back to teach the bad guys a lesson. You may have to call it the Book of Leo though.
 
Katazia said:
Leo,

LOL, well fortunately it is all only mythology ( The Second Coming ) so you've no need to worry, either for yourself or others.

Kat

I suppose the inference is that the First Coming had only been a Mythology?

No. History has seen Huge Spiritual/Religious movements spring up around single Charismatic Leaders. Saint Vincent Ferrer was effective in securing Southern Europe for Catholicism (it had been divided by various popular heretical sects) through his 1000 Miracle a Day Campaign.

The Conversion of Mexico happened with no leader except Don Juan who travelled about telling his story about Our Lady of Guadalupe. 10 Million conversion in ten years. Nothing on that scale has been seen before or since.

But we know such things can happen. It happened before. You may not agree with the Second Coming, but that does not mean that something on that Historic Scale will not happen.... even if you chant the whole time that it is only a superstitious mythology that the multitudes are following.
 
surenderer said:
Actually I am glad you brought up Peter because i was wondering why Peter thought that Jesus(pbuh) was Gods servant......Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). And also Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13). Doesnt that show unequality or lack of trinity? I mean can one part of the trinity be a "servant" to another part?....peace

Interesting response, surenderer, but you did not answer my first question. If Jesus didn’t want a church to be started, why did He say this to Peter?
Mt 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”(NASB)
 
Leo Volont said:
So... this is what I think. Peter was nobody special. The only thing that Peter ever did was sponsor Paul. By sponsoring Paul, the followers of Paul promoted him to Successor to Jesus, when they finally got around to writing the Gospels after the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. when all the Apostles were killed and nobody in the know could rebut the lies.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Do you think that Mark made this up?

Oh what a coincidence, Luke also made a note of it.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Dave
 
Leo Volont said:
The Gospels that have survived come out of the Pauline Congregations. Mark was one of Paul's henchmen. Luke did not like Paul, as you can tell when you read the Book of Acts, but he wrote the party line. Peter was Paul's sponsor. Peter was money hungry. Acts tells us that Peter murdered early christians who would not turn over all their wealth to the Church. Acts tells us that when Jerusalem was hit by famine, Paul sent down enough relief money to rescue Peter's operation. As a Quid Pro Quo, Peter brought a petition to James, who was aparently in charge by that time, that Paul be given a Franchise of all the Gentiles. A letter of Limited Franchise was given to Paul, but Paul ignored its provisions and created a completely new Doctrine. The Real Apostles complained but Peter told them that as long as Paul forwarded Charity Money into his coffers, he could teach anything that he wanted.

So... this is what I think. Peter was nobody special. The only thing that Peter ever did was sponsor Paul. By sponsoring Paul, the followers of Paul promoted him to Successor to Jesus, when they finally got around to writing the Gospels after the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. when all the Apostles were killed and nobody in the know could rebut the lies.

Thank you for your reply, Leo Volont. Where do you get your information? All I see is assumptions & extrapolated speculations. And the dates you provide for the writing of the gospels are not sound. Could you please provide that information which contradicts biblical researchers?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb1.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/gospels_written.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Luke.htm
 
what about baby's.

they fall under the catagory of those who havn't reach the age of accountability. Sorry to forget them. I'm not positive, but I think that they will live in the mellenial kingdom, after the second coming.
 
Leo Volont said:
The Gospels that have survived come out of the Pauline Congregations. Mark was one of Paul's henchmen. Luke did not like Paul, as you can tell when you read the Book of Acts, but he wrote the party line. Peter was Paul's sponsor. Peter was money hungry. Acts tells us that Peter murdered early christians who would not turn over all their wealth to the Church. Acts tells us that when Jerusalem was hit by famine, Paul sent down enough relief money to rescue Peter's operation. As a Quid Pro Quo, Peter brought a petition to James, who was aparently in charge by that time, that Paul be given a Franchise of all the Gentiles. A letter of Limited Franchise was given to Paul, but Paul ignored its provisions and created a completely new Doctrine. The Real Apostles complained but Peter told them that as long as Paul forwarded Charity Money into his coffers, he could teach anything that he wanted.

So... this is what I think. Peter was nobody special. The only thing that Peter ever did was sponsor Paul. By sponsoring Paul, the followers of Paul promoted him to Successor to Jesus, when they finally got around to writing the Gospels after the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. when all the Apostles were killed and nobody in the know could rebut the lies.
*************
M*W: Welcome to sciforums, Leo. I am assuming you are a Christian, but it is refreshing to know that you know the truth about Paul. I am an ex-xian. I've done a lot of reading and I believe Paul was the antichrist (or at least the first one). Paul was greedy and money hungry. What you have stated about Peter and his money laundering, I've read about Paul. Paul would steal the coffers out of the churches where he preached! Paul was no Christian. He saw opportunity and he sold a product called "Jesus." As you know, Paul never even knew Jesus. Paul came after Jesus. He was epileptic. I believe when he fell off his horse it was from an epileptic seizure. I've heard epileptics tell me the same thing -- they see a bright flashing light. Paul was a liar, a thief, and a murderer, and was quite the con-man. He invented Christianity. What Jesus taught wasn't Christianity, nor was he a Christian! I am really enjoying your posts!
 
davewhite04 said:
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Do you think that Mark made this up?

Oh what a coincidence, Luke also made a note of it.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Dave

Dear Dave,

I know that you probably know what you are thinking, and you know why you presented the quotes you presented. But without knowing what your thoughts are regarding them, I have absolutely no idea what point it is you think you are making.

You might consider that instead of relying on people to read your mind, you might write brief essays that present what you think. This is how you write an essay -- first start with a short paragraph which tells what you will be discussing and what you hope to show. Follow this with a longer paragraph which presents your idea and explains it. Then end your essay with a short paragraph which illustrates that you did indeed prove your point. All this works much better then supposing that people can read your mind.
 
SVRP said:
Thank you for your reply, Leo Volont. Where do you get your information? All I see is assumptions & extrapolated speculations. And the dates you provide for the writing of the gospels are not sound. Could you please provide that information which contradicts biblical researchers?

You assert that my info is assertion. I challenge you to provide all the correct info and chronology if you don't like mine.

But there are some things that we can see right on the face of it. There is no 'Christian' Church. The Book of Acts tells us of a Franchise letter, the Letter of Acts 15, which Peter begged James, who was apparently the Apostle really in charge (which casts extreme doubt on the Gospel writings, that came later, stating that Peter had been place in charge) to give to Paul who had been doing so much fund raising for the Jerusalem Community.

Paul took the Letter and ran with it. He shook off Barnubus who had been his supervisor and sponsor into the Church. He then went on to create his own gospel and set of doctrines. Notice that Paul NEVER quoted Christ while presenting his Doctrines. He made it all up.

Look at the existing Gospels. Are these gospels not from out of the Pauline Congregations? We have no Apostolic Gospels -- except for the Gospel of Thomas which was thrown out by the Pauline Congregations because the Doctrines of Christ so bluntly contradicted the doctrines of their Spiritual Guru Paul.

You don't need exact dates to see what is plainly obvious. Do the math. More than 50% of the Books of the New Testament don't even pretend to be Gospel or Apostolic. Christians today are following the Doctrines of a Murderer -- one who even by his own words says that the only thing that Christ ever said to him, in a vision no less, was "Why do you persecute me".

Christianity's core doctrine is that it was a swell thing that we murdered Jesus so that our sins would be forgiven. Now think about it -- is that really how Humanity should have responded to the Messiah, buy killing Him, or do you think that the Antichrist was simply following up on his victory. Paul was able to murder Christ -- was he not a Pharisee who sat on the same committees that voted to execute Christ and was later in charge of persecuting the Followers -- and then he was able to effectively erradicate Christ's own Teachings by substituting a Anti-Teaching of his own. "Forget about the Righteousness that Christ taught and be satisfied that you are saved by the Blood of the Christ you killed". Surely that is of the Devil and Paul is the Antichrist.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
what about baby's.

why have'nt you apologized, for that sick statement.

"They deserve it"

You ask me to apologize for saying "they deserve it". Okay, but why? Who deserves it? They probably do. Have you ever heard of Karma? If you believe in a God and that Life has a purpose and that there is ultimate justice, then you must believe that no evil comes entirely out of the Blue.

But, anyway, really, you will have to give me more context then just saying that I should apologize for once having said the three words "they deserve it". I deserve that much.
 
Enigma'07 said:
they fall under the catagory of those who havn't reach the age of accountability. Sorry to forget them. I'm not positive, but I think that they will live in the mellenial kingdom, after the second coming.

The Angel of God once told me "Birth is but an illusion". Babies are only biologically innocent. They may be quite old souls. Remember, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Paul were all once babies, but such evil could never have been innocent.
 
Leo Volont said:
"They deserve it"

You ask me to apologize for saying "they deserve it". Okay, but why? Who deserves it? They probably do. Have you ever heard of Karma? If you believe in a God and that Life has a purpose and that there is ultimate justice, then you must believe that no evil comes entirely out of the Blue.

But, anyway, really, you will have to give me more context then just saying that I should apologize for once having said the three words "they deserve it". I deserve that much.
this is what you said, the preacher was shocked, you answer him with another question, but did not try to apologize, and I think it 's to gruel a statement (for all those who died in such horrible way's) not to have an apology.

Leo Volont
Registered User (122 posts) 07-12-04, 03:29 PM
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“ Originally Posted by pavlosmarcos
Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ
neither>
glorious why he's just a man, and suffering say that to all the people tortured, over the year's as to who suffered. ”



Hey, aren't you 'just a man'? Show us how 'just a man' can walk on water, heal the sick, make the blind see, and raise the dead? If you can't believe a 2 thousand year old Bible written by Greeks and Jews, then look at recent European records. The Saints carry on the Christly Powers.

As for suffering... I should say that Humanity deserves it! God sent the Christ to be King of Kings to establish Heaven on Earth. Humanity's response was to torture and kill that Christ. What comes around, goes around. Humanity bought into some really bad Karma on that very bad Friday.
incidently I am an atheist/humanist,I dont believe in a god/gods devil/devils or karma/luck/soul or what ever name you with to call it,
you just make your way though life, and take what come's good or bad you only get one chance.
so you must make the best of it, and try to make as many other people's live enriched along the way.
 
Last edited:
Dear Farenheit,

Okay, now that I know what you are talking about, YES, Humanity deserves to suffer.

Is this not the same Humanity that murdered the Messiah?

Look at the Creation Stories. Was not God extremely annoyed when Lucifer only asked for a Power Sharing Relationship? Was not God most aggravated when Adam and Eve wondered into the Off Limits Section of the Garden and poached a Fruit? God exiled the presumptuous Angels -- making them Demons. God banished Adam and Eve and all Humanity from the Garden -- demoting them from Spirits in the Image of God, to primate animals not much above monkeys and apes.

But how small are the offenses of the Fallen Angles and Adam and Eve when compared to MURDERING THE SON OF GOD.

Not only have they murdered the Son of God, but, under Paul the Antichrist, they have created an Anti-Religion which has as its foundational Doctrine that it was Necessary to Murder the Christ.

It is my contention that anyone who claims Salvation on the merit of having Murdered Christ deserves at least an equal suffering. We can see that the Catholic Stigmatic Saints were expected to pay up on this Suffering and did not resent being asked for it. It is the Golden Rule -- if you think it is good that Christ suffered and died for your sins, then you shouldn't mind suffering and dieing yourself for any little details He may have missed. Or do you think it is okay to ask Christ to suffer why expecting to just skip through the daisies yourself?

So, YES, if you support the notion of Salvation by the torture and murder of Jesus Christ, then I can hardly imagine what extremes of suffering you do NOT deserve.
 
mr volont
so you would be happy to take the place of someone, who's about tobe tortured and will die in the process. are you
 
Leo Volont said:
Dear Dave,

I know that you probably know what you are thinking, and you know why you presented the quotes you presented. But without knowing what your thoughts are regarding them, I have absolutely no idea what point it is you think you are making.

You might consider that instead of relying on people to read your mind, you might write brief essays that present what you think. This is how you write an essay -- first start with a short paragraph which tells what you will be discussing and what you hope to show. Follow this with a longer paragraph which presents your idea and explains it. Then end your essay with a short paragraph which illustrates that you did indeed prove your point. All this works much better then supposing that people can read your mind.

You wrote: "So... this is what I think. Peter was nobody special. The only thing that Peter ever did was sponsor Paul. By sponsoring Paul, the followers of Paul promoted him to Successor to Jesus, when they finally got around to writing the Gospels after the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. when all the Apostles were killed and nobody in the know could rebut the lies."

Hello Leo,

It is meaningless, as you obviously believe that the New Testament is corrupt, whereas I don't. So what I quoted is meaningless to you, so apologies for the confusion caused.

Dave
 
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