Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ

[Leo Volont]

With the approaching Second Coming, we may be in for an awkward moment for many. We need to remember that it was Paul, and not Jesus Christ, who set the Doctrinal Tone for the Catholic and especially for the Protestant Church’s. When Christ comes again to establish the Kingdom of the Second Messianic Dispensation He will confront nominal Christians who hold it as their Truth that by the Murder of Christ their Sins are forgiven. Certainly a Living and Ruling Messiah cannot or will not back up these beliefs a Second Time. When a Delegation from the Christian Churches comes to the King of Kings and provides a List of Sins that they expect Him to Suffer for the Remission of, I would not be surprised at all if He were to become quite indignant. “Suffer for your own Sins!,” He might suggest. Then He might point out that He never taught any Doctrine of Salvation or Redemption that signified that Humanity was to be rewarded for having murdered Him, and that He never gave the slightest hint that He would distribute such an infinite benefit for so flatly having rejected the First Messianic Dispensation.

Indeed, Christ may well implement something in the Order of the Golden Rule on those who believed in, taught and relied upon the Doctrine of Salvation through the Suffering of Christ, but a Golden Rule in the inverse – “If you think something is good enough for someone else, then it is good enough for you”. Since they obviously believed it was Okay for Christ to Suffer for the Sins of the World, then these individuals would be made to Suffer themselves for the Sins of the World. What they would wish on Christ, it would not be unfair for Christ to wish upon them. There are even precedents for such a notion – for instance, in many cases Christ appeared to His Saints, the Stigmatics (those who would bear the Supernatural Wounds of the Crucifixion for years at a time), and before smiting them with the painful Stigmata gave them the Conscious Choice, “Do you want my Glory or do you want my Suffering”, and like good Paulists they asked for Christ’s Suffering. And they got it! If would only be fair that every Christian, who preaches the justification of Sin through heaping Suffering onto Christ, Suffer as they would have Christ Suffer.

For those who come Fresh and Pure to the Second Coming -- may they realize their Salvation through Christ’s Glory. That is, if we can keep the Same People who murdered Him last time from murdering Him this next time.

 

[SpyMoose]

Where do democratic people fit in under the hegemony of a king of kings? I think all this religion business is all a lame fuck around, real or not, and I certainly wont be voting Christ in 2008 (or whenever you think this impending return is coming).

 

[Leo Volont]

Where do democratic people fit in under the hegemony of a king of kings? I think all this religion business is all a lame fuck around, real or not, and I certainly wont be voting Christ in 2008 (or whenever you think this impending return is coming).

The Greeks experimented with Democracy. It doesn't work. The Mason's conspired to impose Democracy on the World in order to destabilize everything so that they could take over. What has Democracy given the World but a way for Corporations to purchase political power? The People aren't represented. Rich people who can afford to bribe politicians -- they are the ones who are represented. Look at America -- their Government is so easily manipulated -- the American Politicians vote 5 Billion Dollars a year to Israel, and so Israel 'kicks back', as they say, about 500 Million to the Politicians. So you wonder why on Earth American are murdering Arabs when it is inconceivable and unimaginable why it would be in their National Interest -- but they do it because their Democratic System has been bought up by those clever Bankers, the Israelis.

The World actually needs Career Bureaucracies where power is allocated according to intelligence, merit and experience. No more of Corperations nominating and buying up the Leaders of the Free World.

They used to say that Democracies don't resort to War. Well, the twentieth Century was the most Democratic Century yet, and it was the most War Prone of every previous Century. Now we have the Twentyfirst Century and it has started with War -- inflicted on the World by the nation which boasts of being the most Democratic.

Additionally, Democracy provokes racial and ethnic genocide. Woodrow Wilson called it a hundred years ago when he said that Democracies would resort to Ethnic Self Determination. Each Ethnic Group would vie for power. It has been the imposition of Democracy which has destabilized Africa. In a Democracy, Minorities lose.

What sense does it make to have a System of Government which guarantees that minority interests will lose. In a Bureaucratically Managed Government all interests can be balanced -- no one has to lose. But Democracy will inevitably entail conflict and polarization.

Read History. Democracy never worked before and its not working now. Yet you still have idiots talking about it like it is some sort of ideal -- they are probably just Masons who don't believe a word they are saying (like Lawyers), but simply want to be there to pick up the pieces when the whole World falls apart, through the inherent failure of Democracy to reconcile conflicting ethnic groups and social and economic interests.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ
neither>
glorious why he's just a man, and suffering say that to all the people tortured, over the year's as to who suffered.

 

[Enigma'07]

Jesus has already forgiven the sins of Christians and He remebers them no more. Christians do suffer. they are daily persecuted by a world that hates them, that is, they are suffering in Christ.

 

[Leo Volont]

Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ
neither>
glorious why he's just a man, and suffering say that to all the people tortured, over the year's as to who suffered.

Hey, aren't you 'just a man'? Show us how 'just a man' can walk on water, heal the sick, make the blind see, and raise the dead? If you can't believe a 2 thousand year old Bible written by Greeks and Jews, then look at recent European records. The Saints carry on the Christly Powers.

As for suffering... I should say that Humanity deserves it! God sent the Christ to be King of Kings to establish Heaven on Earth. Humanity's response was to torture and kill that Christ. What comes around, goes around. Humanity bought into some really bad Karma on that very bad Friday.

 

[Leo Volont]

Jesus has already forgiven the sins of Christians and He remebers them no more. Christians do suffer. they are daily persecuted by a world that hates them, that is, they are suffering in Christ.

Paul taught that Christ forgives sins. Christ never taught that! Christ would absolve sins but then send people away enjoining them to "SIN NO MORE". Christ has largely been ignored here. Is it not established 'Christian' Doctrine (really from Paul) that people are inherently sinful -- Original Sin. No Christian is really expected to "SIN NO MORE" as Christ commanded. I suppose Paul thought it was a real bummer during his membership drives, to make moral integrity a necessary requirement. An unlimitedly Easy Salvation was easier to sell then enforcing the strictest moral responsiblity.

Honestly, people who go about pushing a justification for Free Sin should not call themselves Christians. Those of the Church of Paul should call themselves Paulists.

 

[SVRP]

Honestly, people who go about pushing a justification for Free Sin should not call themselves Christians. Those of the Church of Paul should call themselves Paulists.

What is the purpose of labeling “Paulists” from Christians? Are you also implying that those who follow the Church of Peter should call themselves “Peterists”? And those of the Church of John should be called ”Johnists”? What about those who follow Matthew? For they all taught that Jesus death was to satisfy God’s punishment for all sin, not just Paul. Please explain.

 

[Enigma'07]

Paul taught that Christ forgives sins. Christ never taught that!

Christ said that we are to forgive each other seventy times seventy, just as He has forgiven us. Those are His own words.

No Christian is really expected to "SIN NO MORE"

This is there ultimate goal though. And because Christ forgives us, the Father can look at us an alow us into heaven.

What's up with the double negative.

 

[surenderer]

What is the purpose of labeling “Paulists” from Christians? Are you also implying that those who follow the Church of Peter should call themselves “Peterists”? And those of the Church of John should be called ”Johnists”? What about those who follow Matthew? For they all taught that Jesus death was to satisfy God’s punishment for all sin, not just Paul. Please explain.

I think what he is saying is that Jesus(pbuh) had no thoughts about founding a church. As a matter of fact, the NT says he did not want to start a new religion at all. It was Paul (who never met nor talked to Jesus) who really started Christianity. I find it strange that Paul could teach Jesus’ ideas when he never was Jesus’ disciple. Paul wrote 14 books out of the 27 in the New Testament. It was Constantine who accepted Paul’s writings over other writers of his day and made them part of the cannon in the New Testament.Paul then tells the story that on the way to Damascus with a detachment of men, there suddenly shined about him a light from heaven and Jesus spoke to him (Acts 9:3) and although his men heard a voice, they did not see anyone, and it was only Paul that heard Jesus speak words to him. Sounds like the story that the Mormon Joseph Smith told when he said the Angel Moroni spoke to him and no one else. Later Paul changed his story, denying that his men heard anything at all, but instead, they only saw a great light shining around him (Acts 22:9). Perhaps he was afraid his men might have been questioned. Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9. Did Paul's friends hear the voice, or did they not? Is this another lie or a politician spin? Acts 9:7 (KJV) "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." Acts 22:9 (KJV) "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

 

[the preacher]

Hey, aren't you 'just a man'? Show us how 'just a man' can walk on water, heal the sick, make the blind see, and raise the dead? If you can't believe a 2 thousand year old Bible written by Greeks and Jews, then look at recent European records. The Saints carry on the Christly Powers.

As for suffering... I should say that Humanity deserves it! God sent the Christ to be King of Kings to establish Heaven on Earth. Humanity's response was to torture and kill that Christ. What comes around, goes around. Humanity bought into some really bad Karma on that very bad Friday.

when I read you reply to pavlos I was shocked you have no proof of anything,
you quoted from a book.
and then to compound it with modern hearsay (no proof) .


and the last paragraph is terrible, how can you say the all the people who were tortured to death, and all the people who died in some extremely nasty way's, deserve it.
because of your statement I can only hope, that none of the extreme suffering that has happened to innocent people, every happen's to you or your family.
in you religious words "GOD HELP YOU"

 

[Enigma'07]

There is no such thing as innocents.

 

[Katazia]

Leo,

With the approaching Second Coming, we may be in for an awkward moment for many.

LOL, well fortunately it is all only mythology so you've no need to worry, either for yourself or others.

Kat

 

[altec]

The Greeks experimented with Democracy. It doesn't work. The Mason's conspired to impose Democracy on the World in order to destabilize everything so that they could take over. What has Democracy given the World but a way for Corporations to purchase political power? The People aren't represented. Rich people who can afford to bribe politicians -- they are the ones who are represented. Look at America -- their Government is so easily manipulated -- the American Politicians vote 5 Billion Dollars a year to Israel, and so Israel 'kicks back', as they say, about 500 Million to the Politicians. So you wonder why on Earth American are murdering Arabs when it is inconceivable and unimaginable why it would be in their National Interest -- but they do it because their Democratic System has been bought up by those clever Bankers, the Israelis.

The World actually needs Career Bureaucracies where power is allocated according to intelligence, merit and experience. No more of Corperations nominating and buying up the Leaders of the Free World.

They used to say that Democracies don't resort to War. Well, the twentieth Century was the most Democratic Century yet, and it was the most War Prone of every previous Century. Now we have the Twentyfirst Century and it has started with War -- inflicted on the World by the nation which boasts of being the most Democratic.

Additionally, Democracy provokes racial and ethnic genocide. Woodrow Wilson called it a hundred years ago when he said that Democracies would resort to Ethnic Self Determination. Each Ethnic Group would vie for power. It has been the imposition of Democracy which has destabilized Africa. In a Democracy, Minorities lose.

What sense does it make to have a System of Government which guarantees that minority interests will lose. In a Bureaucratically Managed Government all interests can be balanced -- no one has to lose. But Democracy will inevitably entail conflict and polarization.

Read History. Democracy never worked before and its not working now. Yet you still have idiots talking about it like it is some sort of ideal -- they are probably just Masons who don't believe a word they are saying (like Lawyers), but simply want to be there to pick up the pieces when the whole World falls apart, through the inherent failure of Democracy to reconcile conflicting ethnic groups and social and economic interests.

Sounds to me that your beef isn't with democracy, but with capitalism. All of the things that you gripe about that you say are inherant with a democracy, are all things that happen in capitalist systems. You may want to get you facts stright.

 

[SVRP]

I think what he is saying is that Jesus(pbuh) had no thoughts about founding a church. As a matter of fact, the NT says he did not want to start a new religion at all. It was Paul (who never met nor talked to Jesus) who really started Christianity. I find it strange that Paul could teach Jesus’ ideas when he never was Jesus’ disciple. Paul wrote 14 books out of the 27 in the New Testament. It was Constantine who accepted Paul’s writings over other writers of his day and made them part of the cannon in the New Testament.

Thank you for your reply, surenderer, but Paul’s message was consistent with Peter & John’s message, who were disciples of Jesus. Just read their letters and the message is the same as Paul’s. My argument is that Paul was preaching the same message as Jesus disciples, but Paul was a more prolific writer since he had spent most of his time in jail.

And if Jesus didn’t want a church to be started, why did He say this to Peter?
Mt 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”(NASB)

 

[surenderer]

Thank you for your reply, surenderer, but Paul’s message was consistent with Peter & John’s message, who were disciples of Jesus. Just read their letters and the message is the same as Paul’s. My argument is that Paul was preaching the same message as Jesus disciples, but Paul was a more prolific writer since he had spent most of his time in jail.

And if Jesus didn’t want a church to be started, why did He say this to Peter?
Mt 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”(NASB)

Actually I am glad you brought up Peter because i was wondering why Peter thought that Jesus(pbuh) was Gods servant......Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). And also Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13). Doesnt that show unequality or lack of trinity? I mean can one part of the trinity be a "servant" to another part?....peace

 

[mustafhakofi]

There is no such thing as innocents.

I'm sorry but your meant, to talk out of you mouth.

 

[Leo Volont]

Thank you for your reply, surenderer, but Paul’s message was consistent with Peter & John’s message, who were disciples of Jesus. Just read their letters and the message is the same as Paul’s. My argument is that Paul was preaching the same message as Jesus disciples, but Paul was a more prolific writer since he had spent most of his time in jail.

And if Jesus didn’t want a church to be started, why did He say this to Peter?
Mt 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”(NASB)

The Gospels that have survived come out of the Pauline Congregations. Mark was one of Paul's henchmen. Luke did not like Paul, as you can tell when you read the Book of Acts, but he wrote the party line. Peter was Paul's sponsor. Peter was money hungry. Acts tells us that Peter murdered early christians who would not turn over all their wealth to the Church. Acts tells us that when Jerusalem was hit by famine, Paul sent down enough relief money to rescue Peter's operation. As a Quid Pro Quo, Peter brought a petition to James, who was aparently in charge by that time, that Paul be given a Franchise of all the Gentiles. A letter of Limited Franchise was given to Paul, but Paul ignored its provisions and created a completely new Doctrine. The Real Apostles complained but Peter told them that as long as Paul forwarded Charity Money into his coffers, he could teach anything that he wanted.

So... this is what I think. Peter was nobody special. The only thing that Peter ever did was sponsor Paul. By sponsoring Paul, the followers of Paul promoted him to Successor to Jesus, when they finally got around to writing the Gospels after the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. when all the Apostles were killed and nobody in the know could rebut the lies.

 

[Leo Volont]

What is the purpose of labeling “Paulists” from Christians? Are you also implying that those who follow the Church of Peter should call themselves “Peterists”? And those of the Church of John should be called ”Johnists”? What about those who follow Matthew? For they all taught that Jesus death was to satisfy God’s punishment for all sin, not just Paul. Please explain.

Even though the writers of the Gospels editorialize and salt their gospels with Paul's teachings, still, they might have been reluctant to absolutely change the words that Christ was known to have said, though they weren't reluctant to place these words in fresh contexts.

Mathew, the most Jewish of the Gospellers, and the most distant from the centers of pauline influence, gives us the Sermon of the Mount. We can see the Sermon of the Mount as a compilation of Christ's Teachings. We see no redemption. We see no salvation by Faith. We see no foreknowledge of a Messianic Suicide. What we see is a Teaching of Penance and Righteousness. We are told to be perfect. We are not told to sit on a
Easy Salvation.

Luke never liked Paul and I suppose Luke was held more or less in duress. He tells us alot that can be used against Paul. The Wide Way that leads to destruction as opposed to the Narrow Way of Righteousness. What is that but an accusation against Pauline Doctrine of Salvation by Faith. Christ warning of a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing who will be known by his Actions of Evil -- does this not warn of Paul the murderer and enemy of The Law? Then Luke tells us of the Prophecy of Simeon -- that the Teachings of Christ woulsd be contradicted. And then the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares -- that the Church would be taken over by False Factions. All this indicates that the Church was hijacked away from Christ.

The sacraments of Baptism and the Holy Sacrament are still there. But all the Teachings are pauline crap and should be tossed. The Church, influenced by The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints, largely saw this and implemented corrective Teachings of Righteousness and Penance. But the Neo-Paulists of the Reformation saw these corrective Church Teachings as corruptions of Pauline Doctrine, and went to war to have them stopped -- murdering thousands of Priests, Monks, and Nuns... and tens of thousands of laity who persisted in Catholicism... and not for just one generation, but for succeeding generations.

 

[Leo Volont]

Christ said that we are to forgive each other seventy times seventy, just as He has forgiven us. Those are His own words.



This is there ultimate goal though. And because Christ forgives us, the Father can look at us an alow us into heaven.

What's up with the double negative.

Notice the difference. Christ forgave with a word.

Paul insists that in order to be forgiven we have to kill a Messiah and pour out His blood.

I accept that Christ might forgive me if I repent and convert. But Paul's insistance on justifying the Pharisaic Murder of Jesus Christ, while Paul had been a Pharisee and had likely participated in the persecution and Trial of Christ -- we cannot let this crime pass. We cannot teach that we derive some benefit everytime we beat up, torture, and kill a Religious Leader.