Given that humans (mainly males) have a propensity towards...

[Enmos]

Well, I do believe there is something beyond the physical. That the physical universe is not the totality of existence, and that there is a spiritual realm or plane of existence (no, I do not see it as contradictory). And I do think there is some overlap; which consists of the gods existing spiritually throughout physical existence.

I'm not saying that I know this 100%; that would be arrogant of me. Nor am I saying you have to think the same thing as me. That would also be arrogant. I'm merely stating my point of view that you know where I am coming from, philosophically.

PS) Keep in mind, I never claimed to have empirical evidence for this. These are merely my thoughts and personal gnosis. If I were claiming to have proof of this, you could legitimately use an empirical argument against me. But I have done no such thing. My thinking is based on faith tempered with reason.

I respect your views Hapsburg
But if you were asked to explain these gods and their existence could you do that without contradicting physical reality ?

 

[Hapsburg]

Sure. I believe that their natural states of existence are outside of the physical and measurable. Similar to panentheism, but with multiple deities. Another similarity is Hermetic theology; as I noted before, Wicca derived from 19th century Hermetic revivals.

 

[Enmos]

Sure. I believe that their natural states of existence are outside of the physical and measurable. Similar to panentheism, but with multiple deities.

Hapsburg, that's exactly what I was talking about.

nat⋅u⋅ral
8. having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural

It's a contradiction.

And if it's outside of the physical and measurable, you cannot possibly know about it.

 

[Hapsburg]

Hapsburg, that's exactly what I was talking about.

nat⋅u⋅ral
8. having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural

It's a contradiction.

And if it's outside of the physical and measurable, you cannot possibly know about it.

Oh, for fuck's sake, you know that's not what I meant by "natural". Stop being so anal.

You know that I meant their original states of existence. Their forms unto themselves; the gods as they are outside this universe. I don't know how many ways I have to put it before you understand what I mean.

 

[Enmos]

Oh, for fuck's sake, you know that's not what I meant by "natural". Stop being so anal.

You know that I meant their original states of existence. Their forms unto themselves; the gods as they are outside this universe. I don't know how many ways I have to put it before you understand what I mean.

Wow there.. I didn't know you meant it like that. We're talking about something that is completely alien to me, so I'm not going to superimpose my own interpretations onto your words.

And I also don't know what "their original states of existence. Their forms unto themselves; the gods as they are outside this universe" means.
Did you just mean: "I believe that they are outside of the physical and measurable" ?

 

[Hapsburg]

Yes. To be specific, I believe that their basic forms (what is natural to them) exist outside of the physical and measurable section of existence.

I thought that was clear from the outset. I didn't know I had to explain it bit by bit. I apologise for any aggression or irritation I may have showed. I get very exasperated when people I'm talking to aren't on the same page as me.

If you'd like to know my philosophical basis for my theological beliefs, look up Pythagorean and Platonic theologies. Very interesting things there, which have strongly influenced my own views (not least of all because those also strongly influences Hermetic theology).

 

[swarm]

Sure. I believe that their natural states of existence are outside of the physical and measurable.

But he asked "if you were asked to explain these gods and their existence could you do that without contradicting physical reality?"

"Their natural states of existence are outside of the physical and measurable" would be "contradicting physical reality."

 

[swarm]

I meant their original states of existence. Their forms unto themselves; the gods as they are outside this universe.

I have no idea what you mean by that or how you could have come by any such knowledge.

How do you know their "original states of existence" and how is that natural?

How do you know their "forms unto themselves?"
This seems doubly dubious since you claim they are "outside this universe."

Do you really have a lot of experience outside this universe?

 

[Hapsburg]

"Their natural states of existence are outside of the physical and measurable" would be "contradicting physical reality."

No, that's avoiding physical reality entirely so that their existence does not contradict physics. If they exist outside physical reality, anything goes.
I came to this idea partly because I agreed with Pythagorean and Neo-Platonic theologies, which are very panentheistic; and partly because it seemed like the only logical route. If the gods existed naturally in the physical universe, don't you think we'd see physical evidence of them? But we haven't; so, for a polytheist, the rational course is to conclude that they exist outside of physical existence, on a wholly spiritual plane.

 

[swarm]

I believe that their basic forms (what is natural to them) exist outside of the physical and measurable section of existence.

That's nice but what basis do you have for this belief?

If you'd like to know my philosophical basis for my theological beliefs, look up Pythagorean and Platonic theologies.

You realize there are serious flaws to these positions? The main one being a confusion from the attempt to place ideals and concepts outside the mind which creates them. The concept of "chair" exists only in the mind of chair users. There is no "realm" of ideal "forms" where "chairness" hangs out instanciating itself in actual chairs.

 

[swarm]

No, that's avoiding physical reality entirely so that their existence does not contradict physics. If they exist outside physical reality, anything goes.

First, if they avoid physical reality entirely how do you know anything about them? Next, "existence" is probably not the right word and "outside physical reality" in this manner inherantly contradicts our current understanding of physical reality if you can offer any means of knowing this.

Finally why would you think "anything goes" for them any more than it does for us?

I came to this idea partly because I agreed with Pythagorean and Neo-Platonic theologies, which are very panentheistic; and partly because it seemed like the only logical route.

Pantheism doesn't have gods per se. It has the universe itself as "god" with possibly some je ne sais quoi "supernatural" aspect.

I honestly can't see the logic in proposing entities you have no possible knowledge of "existing" in places you don't know of.

If the gods existed naturally in the physical universe, don't you think we'd see physical evidence of them?

This I can agree with.

But we haven't; so, for a polytheist, the rational course is to conclude that they exist outside of physical existence, on a wholly spiritual plane.

The rational course is to conclude they don't exist at all until some actual evidence is presented to support a contention that they exist. Inventing a "wholly spiritual plane," what ever that is supposed to be, is not the rational course.

It like saying "I don't have any money in my wallet so it must be that on a wholly monetary plane of existence I'm rich!"

 

[Hapsburg]

First, if they avoid physical reality entirely how do you know anything about them?

I meant that in their natural states, they avoid physical reality. It doesn't mean they can't affect or contact physical reality in a different form. Such as in dreams or epiphanies, or other altered states of consciousness.

Finally why would you think "anything goes" for them any more than it does for us?

Well, I was being a tad hyperbolic. It's more of that a non-physical realm would not have physics as we know it. Matter and energy could be created and manipulated at will by beings in such a plane of existence.

Pantheism doesn't have gods per se

I didn't say it did. I said panentheism, which can include multiple gods.

I honestly can't see the logic in proposing entities you have no possible knowledge of "existing" in places you don't know of.

'Kay. You don't have to. Unlike you, I'm not trying to convince you that my beliefs are the only valid ways of thinking. That's why they're beliefs; they're held by faith and personal gnosis, which is subjective. All I'm asking is that you respect my beliefs, and my right to have them.

 

[nietzschefan]

LOL @ this Thread.

Maggie Thatcher
BLoody Mary
Liz

That's just GB.

 

[swarm]

I meant that in their natural states, they avoid physical reality.

How do you "avoid" physical reality?

It doesn't mean they can't affect or contact physical reality in a different form.

Then how is that "avoiding" physical reality?

Such as in dreams or epiphanies, or other altered states of consciousness.

So if I dream of a god that means there is an actual god who is avoiding physical reality but sneeking a little dream time in on the side??? Isn't that cheating? How exactly is this accomplished any way? Is EVERYTHING I dream really in this "other place?" Why isn't it just a dream?

It's more of that a non-physical realm would not have physics as we know it.

How would you know?

Matter and energy could be created and manipulated at will by beings in such a plane of existence.

Or maybe it couldn't. Isn't this just empty speculation?

I said panentheism, which can include multiple gods.

How am I supposed to keep up with this stuff? OK - panentheism - checking wiki - ok so "gods" is the part of the universe and "more" for which there is neither evidence nor need?

I'm not trying to convince you...

That's handy. What exactly am I trying to convince you about my beliefs?

That's why they're beliefs; they're held by faith and personal gnosis, which is subjective. All I'm asking is that you respect my beliefs, and my right to have them.

Subjective faith and gnosis? Would you choose a doctor that way? Why choose a god that way?

I've no problem with you having them, but I tend to limit respect for beliefs which are well founded. At the very leastI need to see that there is a means to distinguish the belief from simple fantasies and wishful thinking.

 

[fiicere]

Impossible. Human nature is immutable.

my $0.02