Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

[SnakeLord]

Maybe you're verbally challenged, a visual person?

Ah I see, that's the level you want to drag it down to heh? To answer the question though, either will do. It is safe to say that one of the two certainly beats non-answer.

Ok, kindly take a moment to look at the pictures you have provided.. You will see next to the humans mouth the words: "ingestion of undercooked meat"

So what are you now telling me exactly? That pork is not unhealthy as you claimed but that people should beware of those that cannot cook?

A quality argument Sam and no mistake.

I'm not as nice as you so I wont provide pictures, but it must be stated that chicken when undercooked carries serious risk.. It is indeed the highest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom.

Some 19% of food poisoning come from red meat - "Red meat is also a source of Salmonella and Campylobacter. In addition, Escheria coli O157 (E. coli) is found in the intestines of healthy cows."

I suppose we should now label cows as unhealthy.

Why stop there? Let's add cheese and other dairy products, shellfish, canned foods and hell.. even fruit and veg, ("Fruit and vegetables are susceptible to contamination with Salmonella, Campylobacter, Listeria and SRSVs, through the use of manure containing animal faeces and through contaminated water").

I know, let's just all stop eating. That'll solve the problem.

Anyway, it's been nice.. can you now possibly tell me why pork is unhealthy or would you just prefer to continue with your nonsense?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah I see, that's the level you want to drag it down to heh? To answer the question though, either will do. It is safe to say that one of the two certainly beats non-answer.

Ok, kindly take a moment to look at the pictures you have provided.. You will see next to the humans mouth the words: "ingestion of undercooked meat"

So what are you now telling me exactly? That pork is not unhealthy as you claimed but that people should beware of those that cannot cook?

A quality argument Sam and no mistake.

I'm not as nice as you so I wont provide pictures, but it must be stated that chicken when undercooked carries serious risk.. It is indeed the highest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom.

Some 19% of food poisoning come from red meat - "Red meat is also a source of Salmonella and Campylobacter. In addition, Escheria coli O157 (E. coli) is found in the intestines of healthy cows."

I suppose we should now label cows as unhealthy.

Why stop there? Let's add cheese and other dairy products, shellfish, canned foods and hell.. even fruit and veg, ("Fruit and vegetables are susceptible to contamination with Salmonella, Campylobacter, Listeria and SRSVs, through the use of manure containing animal faeces and through contaminated water").

I know, let's just all stop eating. That'll solve the problem.

Anyway, it's been nice.. can you now possibly tell me why pork is unhealthy or would you just prefer to continue with your nonsense?

Guess you missed the significance of the identical nature of the input and output in the first figure.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Michael,

I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim

I consider myself as moderate.

1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
In the same boat.

2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.
Any claim as prophet after Muhammad is.

3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.
See no. 2.

4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.
If they refer to qur’an, then Muhammad is the last.

5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.
mistake sure he did (verse 80:1 – 80:11 muhammad was warned immediately – when he showed a long face toward a blind man who came to him asking for direction).
Sinned… I guess he was prevented to, by supervision of Gabriel.

6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.
In the same boat.

7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.
I never heard.

8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.
many reasons to do it. For the proper reason, why not.

9. Eating pork is a sin.
Loud and clearly stated in qur’an, no room for interpretation (yet). In the same boat.

10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Same boat.

11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.
same boat.

12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.
no it’s not flawed. It’s just corrupted, written not well attendedly (by jesus himself), and no way to secure its’ original contents.

13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.
Same with 12.

14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.
same boat.

15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.
I guess so, In term of determining a point to symbolize unity.

16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.
same boat.

17. The Qur’an is perfect.
same boat.

18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.
qur’anic Arabic? No idea.

19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.
all polytheistic is against qur’an.

20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.
considering Gautama came before Muhammad, I consider he was a prophet, sent by same God. Those who followed him and never been touched by the light of qur’an, are fine with me.

21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
The concept is not reincarnated, but transfer to other nature. Initially from heaven back to heaven (or slipped to hell) through several natures. Those natures are heaven, mothers’ womb, material (our) nature, barzakh (grave), judgement day, heaven/hell.

22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.
I haven’t found any suggestion to have 4 wifes, yes that qur’an states there are wife(s). My interpretation (considering there are quite many verses regulating how to treat women), is that men tends to cheat so they should be tightly regulated in treating women. Considering those regulation, I prefer to have only one.

23. Homosexual sex is a sin.
I guess so. God created two genders to be complemented each other, keeping the nature in equilibrium. Homosexual is against nature, ruining equilibrium, it’s a sin. Sexual passion is the same with other passion. Sometimes one has passion to something one is not allowed to/ not belong to one, any passions, and crossing line is a sin.

24. There is an afterlife.
life is ethernal (see no. 21). Our body is only used in mother’s womb and material world.

25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
When one accomplished a journey, the arrival point of the journey is the reward itself. Experiencing journey is an enjoyment. One has special way to enjoy the succesfull arrival of one’s journey, when the direction happen to be right. Wrong direction, miserable.

26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.
See no. 25, when the journey is toward wrong direction.

27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.
This is individual experience. If one has no any idea what islam is, one’s religious belief is fine. He/she will find his successful journey to heaven.

28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.

I guess a well educated muslim will not change. But one has own right to choose.

32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
destruction is bad.

33. The worship of idols is a sin.
same boat.

34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.
The rise of middle east culture & civilization was parallel with Islamic rise. Intellectuality was heard and encouraged. The falling of them was because they left the best practiced taught by Muhammad and 4 khulafaurrasyidin. They more toward power and wealth instead of following the samples brought by Muhammad. Dynasty system had never been taught by Muhammad and the 4 companions, there is no inheritance of power. Corruption is the root of the mess. Islam forbid corruption in any case. Corruptors should be had their ‘hand cut’ (the access to the corruption opportunity should be cut). Then the mess will be repaired.

35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.
Not so. Islamic is different with muslim. Muslim is one who admit the six faith. Islamic is one who practising the teachings of Islam. Doesn’t matter one is muslim or not, if Islamic teachings are practiced properly, I believe the world will be better.

36. Atheism is a sin.
With no explanation of anything, one atheist is not a sin. It’s just ignorance. Denying the supreme power which control the nature is a sin, when the messenger had spread the guide to live in.

37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.
build anything, should be regulated by government.

38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.
same boat.

39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.
talking Islamic as an adjective, same boat. Doesn’t have to be muslim. In Islam, there are teachings for individuals, and there are teachings for social intercourse. Individual teachings should not mess with social intercourse.

40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
no opinion.

41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.
it brought the light of initial renaissance. I agree.

42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.
Taxes are charged by government for all citizens. Taxes are necessary. There is no explanation regarding best tax-practice in qur’an. All is contextual with the nation livinghood. The concept of zakat in Islam is not tax (tax in term of paying the body which citizens have trust to be able to rule and regulate their livinghood). Zakat is implying that anything we earn, there is part belong to those handicapped. Zakat is individual obligation, while obligation for tax appear in social livinghood. So, muslim or not, when they have government, tax is a must, and should be properly regulated. Tax not the same for all, depends on the duty the government should do against the citizens. When there are some obligation for government to treat non-muslim which not applicable to muslim in muslim countries, it is customary to put non-muslim tax on them.


43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.
The law which is better in preventing corruption will be the best. Sharia is deriving the value of qur’an into practice. Open to many misinterpretations. I believe if the teachings of qur’an interpreted properly well, wether the practice is to be secular (in term of splitting individual courses with social intercourse) or sharia, is the same.

 

[Michael]

LiveInFaith,

Thanks I know that was a long list!

I’ve have some more questions, if you would like to give them a go. I’ve asked these sorts of questions before but I am curious as to your thoughts anyway.

- Lets suppose that your close family member or partner, perhaps a parent or sibling or first of kin, or wife or husband, decided to convert to Hinduism. Suppose that while being a practicing Muslim they were unhappy and in their new faith they feel enlightened and happy. As part of their new faith they reject the notion that Mohammed was the Last Prophet and also that there is a single God-Head (One God). If you could see their happiness was genuine, would you support their conversion out of Islam? Would you support their freedom to convert?

- In your own personal experience, has the teachings you found in the Qur’an ever led to personal enlightenment – if so, could you share or relate this?

- In your studies of the Qur’an, I am curious: Is there a novel teaching in the Qur’an? By novel I mean something that wasn’t already taught by Buddhists or Hindu or Greeks etc.. something “new” to Islam.
A revelation if you will.
I am still perplexed as to why the Qur’an was written IF there isn’t anything particularly novel, inspiring thus enlightening in it that wasn’t already expressed elsewhere?
[**note: By this I mean other than: “There is One God and Mohammed is the Last Prophet”. While that may be taken as fact - it isn’t novel nor pondering it lead to an enlightened state.] So with this in mind, have you come across anything in a sermon or your studies that was novel and enlightening in Islam?

Thanks,
Michael

 

[LiveInFaith]

- Lets suppose that your close family member or partner, perhaps a parent or sibling or first of kin, or wife or husband, decided to convert to Hinduism. Suppose that while being a practicing Muslim they were unhappy and in their new faith they feel enlightened and happy. As part of their new faith they reject the notion that Mohammed was the Last Prophet and also that there is a single God-Head (One God). If you could see their happiness was genuine, would you support their conversion out of Islam? Would you support their freedom to convert?

It is sad to loose a member in a society. But considering one knows what one does, any choice should be respected, and supported. Everybody knows what they want, and will, and somehow they have their lives, their own fate, their own chance, and their own risks, not me.

- In your own personal experience, has the teachings you found in the Qur’an ever led to personal enlightenment – if so, could you share or relate this?

Direct enlightenment maybe not. It is kind of accumulative in the way I live my life.
I would like to emphasize 2 things : (1) the concept of qadha and qadar (god's will), one of six faith in Islam; and (2) tawakkal (patience and acceptance).

Qadha is god's will without my intervention (e.g. the universe and law operating in and of it; my very existence; anything available before me), while qadar is god's will which could be 'adjusted' against my behaviours and actions. Qadar is free choice in the boundary of qadha. both are under god's will. Qadha is pre-determined, and under my endeavour, I will meet my qadar (post-action). If I get success, that means I had done all god's will, if I haven't, it means I still miss something god wants me to do. After all endeavour, and I still don't know what that is, then I pray. Sometimes it just a simple thing we neglect because we think it has nothing to do with what we endeavour. For example, once in my experience, after hard effort, I still got no success, then I pray. After praying, something inside telling me that I have to ask forgiveness from my mother because I did some rude to her. I did, and then things run better. Having mother is qadha (I just have to accept I have a mother, it is already available for me), and asking her forgiveness is how I pursue my 'wish of qadar'.

If, even if after doing that I still have got no success, then that's because I still miss something else, and still required to pursue more endeavour. In this case, I should be tawakkal (patience and accept). This behaviour makes me blame noone, blame nothing, it's just because I still miss something to reach my qadar. It's all on me. Just do a pray, searching for guide, and that makes me always easy.

The point is, I am prevented of being upset for anything, that keeps my heart in stable pressure.

- In your studies of the Qur’an, I am curious: Is there a novel teaching in the Qur’an? By novel I mean something that wasn’t already taught by Buddhists or Hindu or Greeks etc.. something “new” to Islam.
A revelation if you will.
I am still perplexed as to why the Qur’an was written IF there isn’t anything particularly novel, inspiring thus enlightening in it that wasn’t already expressed elsewhere?
[**note: By this I mean other than: “There is One God and Mohammed is the Last Prophet”. While that may be taken as fact - it isn’t novel nor pondering it lead to an enlightened state.] So with this in mind, have you come across anything in a sermon or your studies that was novel and enlightening in Islam?

Thanks,
Michael

Frankly speaking, no!
Qur'an is a guide and warning. It gives light in the dark, and warns not to exceed limits.

 

[Michael]

LiveInFaith,


Thanks! If only more people were as moderate. I hope, one day, people such as Sam and you can take the reigns of Islam and pull it in an overall moderate direction. Similar to Xianity I suppose it will be an uphill battle simply due to the “The is only one God and Mohammed is the Last of the Prophets” as that is of course going to be a direct slap in the face of everyone who doesn’t share this view.

It's too bad the messegae wasn’t worded: “There may only be one God and perhaps Mohammed was the last of its Prophets, if so, so what? – now put down the book and go figure life out for yourself!” PS: Without harming anyone!”



Michael