Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Great line spidergoat, "... burn you prematurely."

 

[S.A.M.]

RE: Pork

While it is true some pork can carry disease that can infect humans, so does chicken, lamb, cow and especially (and more so than any other) other primates like ape and monkey.

1) Acording to God is it OK to eat a primate, say Ape or Monkey? Is there any reason why or why not?
2) According to God is it OK to eat pork? Is there any reason why or why not?
3) According to God is there anything wrong with eating another human? Is there any reason why or why not?


Thanks
Michael

I think most Muslims follow the same food laws as Judaism, eating only ruminants and domestic fowl. Except that for us shellfish is makruh (not forbidden, but to be avoided as far as possible).

Pork is a forbidden food, eaten only when faced with no other choice.

Here is something interesting, though not conclusive:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2858627&dopt=Abstract

 

[S.A.M.]

RE RE Pork,

To make sure my list is correct. If the pork is perfectly clean is it OK to eat pork everyday? Japanese eat pork all the time, probably for some its like everyday (ramen noodles). They are the longest lived people on the planet - I think we can safely say eating pork does not increase you chances of getting sick over that of chicken, beef, lamb, camel, etc...

Have the Japanese always eaten pork? Didn't they used to be Buddhists?

 

[Michael]

Frankly there are no agreed to tenets, so I can only give my point of view, which is that everyone is free to interpret their faith in the way that suits them best. Who knows why people believe the way they do?

Of course, everything is as such. But, you consider yourself 'Muslim' so we must assume that your beliefs are somewhat shaped by Islamic ideology and worldview.

As to hellfire? IMHO it’s something made-up to scare the naïve into submitting to a God. Once they are sufficiently scared enough they can be controlled. *poof* Patriot Act! Anyway, if you prefer replace hellfire with “some sort of punishment”, if you will, for not thinking as this God would have you think.

So?
Do you believe that people will be judged and, some, punished by God?


Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Of course, everything is as such. But, you consider yourself 'Muslim' so we must assume that your beliefs are somewhat shaped by Islamic ideology and worldview.

As to hellfire? IMHO it’s something made-up to scare the naïve into submitting to a God. Once they are sufficiently scared enough they can be controlled. *poof* Patriot Act! Anyway, if you prefer replace hellfire with “some sort of punishment”, if you will, for not thinking as this God would have you think.

So?
Do you believe that people will be judged and, some, punished by God?


Michael

Who knows? Like you say, it may be a way to keep impressionable people in line.

Parents do it all the time.

 

[Michael]

I think most Muslims follow the same food laws as Judaism, eating only ruminants and domestic fowl. Except that for us shellfish is makruh (not forbidden, but to be avoided as far as possible).

According to God, is it ok for Muslims eat Monkeys and Apes?

Also, I don't really know much about Jewish food-law, why doesn't God allow you to eat pork?

 

[S.A.M.]

According to God, is it ok for Muslims eat Monkeys and Apes?

Also, I don't really know much about Jewish food-law, why doesn't God allow you to eat pork?

I don't think monkeys and apes are either ruminants or domestic fowl (or fish!)

Pork is considered an unclean meat, like blood and carcass (the other forbidden foods)

 

[Michael]

Have the Japanese always eaten pork? Didn't they used to be Buddhists?

Japanese have traditionally been Shinto. However, many are Buddhist. That said, for the most part most Japanese are both Shinto and Buddhist.

The Shinto Shrine provides a place of rest and meditation for Buddhist and a Buddhist Temple may provide a Shrine to the local Shinto Gods. Or so it seemed when I was in Japan. Eating pork is about as common as eating rice in Japan, which is to say, very very common!


Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Japanese have traditionally been Shinto. However, many are Buddhist. That said, for the most part most Japanese are both Shinto and Buddhist.

The Shinto Shrine provides a place of rest and meditation for Buddhist and a Buddhist Temple may provide a Shrine to the local Shinto Gods. Or so it seemed when I was in Japan. Eating pork is about as common as eating rice in Japan, which is to say, very very common!


Michael

I believe meat eating is not traditional in the Japanese diet, but I'll check and make sure. Nowadays of course, everyone eats everything.

edit:

A unique feature of Japanese dietary history has been the country’s various taboos on meat eating. The first recorded decree prohibiting the eating of cattle, horses, dogs, monkeys, and chickens was issued by Emperor Temmu in A.D. 675. Similar decrees, based on the Buddhist prohibition of killing, were issued repeatedly by emperors during the eighth and ninth centuries. The number of regulated meats increased to the point that all mammals were included except whales, which, given their marine habitat, were categorized as fish.

The taboo against the consumption of animal flesh developed further when the Japanese aboriginal religion, Shinto¯, adopted a philosophy similar to that of the Buddhists. This did not mean, however, that meat eating was totally banned in Japan. Professional hunters in mountain regions ate game (especially deer and wild boar), and it was not uncommon for hunted bird meat to be consumed. However, a lack of animal breeding for meat kept its consumption very low. Indeed, it was only during the fifteenth century and its aftermath that the tradition of eating both the meat and eggs of domestic fowl was revived. Fowls, until then, had been regarded in Shinto¯ as God’s sacred messengers and were reared to announce the dawn rather than as a mere food resource.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/books/kiple/japan.htm

 

[Michael]

I don't think monkeys and apes are either ruminants or domestic fowl (or fish!)

In your opinion which is worse to eat: a monkey or pork?

You know, many Africans live primarily on cow's blood - it is perfectly fine to eat. Many drink it warm, collected from the neck and stired to thicken.

yum yum

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

In your opinion which is worse to eat: a monkey or pork?

You know, many Africans live primarily on cow's blood - it is perfectly fine to eat. Many drink it warm, collected from the neck and stired to thicken.

yum yum

Michael

I'll avoid both, thanks!

There are people in India (Hindus mostly) who collect during Eid ul Zuha (the festival when Muslims sacrifice goats,sheep, cows) to collect the blood for consumption.

 

[Michael]

So why is it, do you think, that God specifically forbids pork to be eaten but not monkey?

You don't suppose it was simply an Arab/Jewish tradition and because Arabs/Jews never had a tradition of eating nor not eating monkey that their religious book simply didn't mention it? If God were real and really concerned with the wellbeing of all of his creations - it seems IMHO that preventing monkey consumption would be #1 on the list, as monkeys and humans can very easily share diseases. And do, much more so than human and pig.

Why not a mention of the dangers of rat? The Black Plague killed 75 million people.
Why allow the consumption of “domestic fowl”, the Spanish Flu from poultry (i.e. chicken) 100 million people.

It seems odd don’t you think? It’s as if someone just made it all up and put it in some book a thousand years ago ... don’t eat pork ... eat fowl …. monkey.. ehh??? whay not sure do it...


What do you think?

Michael

PS:
Regardless of traditional diet, I think we can agree that modern Japanese eat pork and they are very healthy?

 

[Michael]

Also, will God punish some people in the afterlife? If so how so? For how long? What sort of people? As an Atheist do you suppose I will be punished? Isn't it funny, as in odd, to punish another being for not thinking the thought you'd prefer them to think? It seems, as these forums can attest, more a primitive human notion than a Godly one?

 

[S.A.M.]

So why is it, do you think, that God specifically forbids pork to be eaten but not monkey?

You don't suppose it was simply an Arab/Jewish tradition and because Arabs/Jews never had a tradition of eating nor not eating monkey that their religious book simply didn't mention it? If God were real and really concerned with the wellbeing of all of his creations - it seems IMHO that preventing monkey consumption would be #1 on the list, as monkeys and humans can very easily share diseases. And do, much more so than human and pig.

Why not a mention of the dangers of rat? The Black Plague killed 75 million people.
Why allow the consumption of “domestic fowl”, the Spanish Flu from poultry (i.e. chicken) 100 million people.

It seems odd don’t you think? It’s as if someone just made it all up and put it in some book a thousand years ago ... don’t eat pork ... eat fowl …. monkey.. ehh??? whay not sure do it...


What do you think?

Michael

PS:
Regardless of traditional diet, I think we can agree that modern Japanese eat pork and they are very healthy?

Did you miss the part where lawful foods included only ruminants and domestic fowl? Do you know any Muslims who eat monkeys?

PPS. Effects of diet are cumulative and show up after several generations.

 

[S.A.M.]

Also, will God punish some people in the afterlife? If so how so? For how long? What sort of people? As an Atheist do you suppose I will be punished? Isn't it funny, as in odd, to punish another being for not thinking the thought you'd prefer them to think? It seems, as these forums can attest, more a primitive human notion than a Godly one?

Since you don't believe in it, there's no reason it should consume your thoughts is there?

 

[Michael]

Did you miss the part where lawful foods included only ruminants and domestic fowl?

So to be correct: The answer is it is against Gods wishes that humans eat Monkey as well as Pork?

But pork is not a ruminant - so why would God make a special mention of pork and not a mention to Monkey? Lots of humans eat Monkey after all. And yes, Monkey is eaten by many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Skinned monkey can be bought for $3 in Indonesia. I’m 100% positive that some Muslims living in Africa eat Monkey as it is customary to do so.

Why? Other than being a non- ruminant is there something inherently wrong with eating monkey? Is it sinful?

(don’t get me wrong I don’t eat monkey! It just a line of reasoning)

Something interesting from wiki (could be crap):
“Paul Burrell, the former butler of Princess Diana, tells he was served monkey brains on banana leaves and coconut palms when visiting Saudi Arabia.[2]”

Since you don't believe in it, there's no reason it should consume your thoughts is there?

Sam, I'm not being facetious and it’s OK if you answer yes Michael you're gonna burn baby burn Most people who believe in One God usually also believe there is a place where non-believers will be rewarded with pain in the afterlife for their insolence.

I think it’s odd but so what? That doesn’t take away the reality of the situation or of the belief.

So? With this in mind and if its OK with you: Does God punish some people in the afterlife?
If so who?
Do you know (or have any idea) of how so?

Thanks
Michael

 

[Michael]

PPS. Effects of diet are cumulative and show up after several generations.

Really?!?! I didn't know that? How would food affect the next generation? Is the genome or proteome affected?

That's pretty interesting - I wonder if my fellow Americans will be producing piglet-kids for generations to come - by the Gods are Americans fat!

Well, as they say, keep em lean and keep em keen

(actually I made that up just now .. hehe ..

Michael II

 

[S.A.M.]

Really?!?! I didn't know that? How would food affect the next generation? Is the genome or proteome affected?

That's pretty interesting - I wonder if my fellow Americans will be producing piglet-kids for generations to come - by the Gods are Americans fat!

Well, as they say, keep em lean and keep em keen

(actually I made that up just now .. hehe ..

Michael II

Its called genomic imprinting.

Epigenetic mechanisms are at the base of genomic imprinting, a phenomenon that was discovered in the 1980s in mouse embryos made to carry only 1 set of parental chromosomes. Researchers found that genes functioned differently depending on the parent from which they derived.[4,5] For example, genes that are responsible for normal embryonic development are derived from the mother, whereas genes important for normal placental development are derived from the father.

DNA methylation was then identified as a key mechanism of imprinting, leading to the differential expression of genes derived from one or the other parent, through differential methylation of genes in eggs and sperm.

The phenomenon of genetic imprinting has a substantial effect on human genetic diseases, as it may result in increased disease susceptibility when a recessive, "protective" allele is inactivated through mutation(s). For instance, the first 2 endogenous, imprinted genes described were insulin growth factor 2 (IGF2)[6] (maternally silenced) and M6P/IGF2R[7] (paternally silenced). Of note, genomic imprinting is species- and tissue-dependent.

Is fetal nutrition linked to epigenetic mechanisms and imprinting? Extensive epidemiologic data link prenatal and early postnatal nutrition to diseases in the adult stage, such as cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and cancer. Studies in animal models appear to confirm these data.[8-12]
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/484120_3

 

[S.A.M.]

So to be correct: The answer is it is against Gods wishes that humans eat Monkey as well as Pork?

But pork is not a ruminant - so why would God make a special mention of pork and not a mention to Monkey? Lots of humans eat Monkey after all. And yes, Monkey is eaten by many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Skinned monkey can be bought for $3 in Indonesia. I’m 100% positive that some Muslims living in Africa eat Monkey as it is customary to do so.

Why? Other than being a non- ruminant is there something inherently wrong with eating monkey? Is it sinful?

Only personal disgust then.
Anyway, I do know of Muslims who eat pork so its not a black and white scenario. Ultimately what people follow in religion will depend to a greater extent on their social environment rather than their religious teachings.

Sam, I'm not being facetious and it’s OK if you answer yes Michael you're gonna burn baby burn Most people who believe in One God usually also believe there is a place where non-believers will be rewarded with pain in the afterlife for their insolence.

I think it’s odd but so what? That doesn’t take away the reality of the situation or of the belief.

I think the important word there is belief.
The reality of belief is that if you believe you can/can't you are right.
If you believe you are sick, are you healthy? And vice versa?
So, do you believe? If you don't, its immaterial and to me, a specious mental exercise.

So? With this in mind and if its OK with you: Does God punish some people in the afterlife?
If so who?
Do you know (or have any idea) of how so?

I guess I'd have to say I don't know. May be a good mental exercise but what's the point?

I mean do people avoid sinning more out of fear of Hell or because they are afraid of legal consequences? Are there religious people in prison? Are there atheists who are killers/liars/cheaters?

Does religion make one a better person? Does atheism?

 

[SnakeLord]

You can take it any way you like.

Perhaps, but given that you have failed to support your claim that pork is unhealthy I don't have a choice in the matter. The only sensible way to take it is that you can't.

Word of advice: Don't make claims if you can't suppport them. True, that would put an end to this entire forum subsection, but such is life..