Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

[Michael]

Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

OK, sorry for the long list, but here are what I suppose Fundamental Muslims think. What I would like is for Moderate Muslims, if any want to participate, to read through the list and pick out where Moderate Muslim belief differs. The reason why I ask is I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim. At least in these regards.

1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.
3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.
4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.
5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.
6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.
7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.
8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.
9. Eating pork is a sin.
10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.
11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.
12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.
13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.
14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.
15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.
16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.
17. The Qur’an is perfect.
18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.
19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.
20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.
21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.
23. Homosexual sex is a sin.
24. There is an afterlife.
25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.
27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.
28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.
32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
33. The worship of idols is a sin.
34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.
35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.
36. Atheism is a sin.
37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.
38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.
39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.
40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.
42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.
43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.


So, what I’m curious about is: Where do Moderate Muslims differ in belief?

Thanks,
Michael II

 

[S.A.M.]

Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

OK, sorry for the long list, but here are what I suppose Fundamental Muslims think. What I would like is for Moderate Muslims, if any want to participate, to read through the list and pick out where Moderate Muslim belief differs. The reason why I ask is I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim. At least in these regards.

So many questions!

1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.

Yes, for Muslims.

2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.

A prophet (nabi) is different from a messenger (rasul). Prophets are given revelations while messengers are teachers. Mohammed is the last revealer but no doubt there may be other teachers.

3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.

I don't think he claimed to be a prophet, he claimed to be a teacher/redeemer.

4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.

Sorry don't really know much about it, so cannot comment.

5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.

He did his best and followed the teachings of Islam to the best of his ability. Thats all anyone can be expected to do.

6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.

Mohammed himself was against people writing down his exploits. However, people generally need example rather than precept.

7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.

He defended himself and his people as any good leader would do.

8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.

Yes, in self-defence and to protect many innocents from a terrorist/criminal

9. Eating pork is a sin.

Its not healthy, just like eating blood or carcass. In case of no other alternative, however, there is no harm.

10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.

No fundamentalist/moderate believes that, only those who need cannon fodder for political causes.

11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.

Thats the basis of Islam and is mandatory for Muslims.

12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.

Not flawed, so much as not representative of the Gospels of Christ

13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.

No

14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.

Jesus was a most beloved Prophet, considered more beloved than Mohammed, and yes, he is not considered divine

15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.

The "square rock" is a hollow cube which houses a room and has a door. It is used as the qibla (direction for prayers). It is believed to have been first built by Abraham (not the present construction, of course, but the original one). It is special to Muslims as a meeting point and a focus of their faith. No special association with God that I know of. In fact, Muhammed earlier used Jerusalem as the qibla and only changed later to Mecca.

16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.

The polytheism of the pre-Islamic Arabs consisted of djinns, demons and demi-gods probably in the Mediterranean tradition.

Pre-Islamic mythology does not discriminate between gods and demons. The jinn are considered as divinities of inferior rank, having many human attributes: they eat, drink, and procreate their kind, sometimes in conjunction with human beings; in which latter case the offspring shares the natures of both parents. The jinn smell and lick things, and have a liking for remnants of food. In eating they use the left hand. Usually they haunt waste and deserted places, especially the thickets where wild beasts gather. Cemeteries and dirty places are also favorite abodes. In appearing to man jinn assume sometimes the forms of beasts and sometimes those of men.

Generally jinn are peaceable and well disposed toward men. Many a pre-Islamic poet was believed to have been inspired by good jinn; and Muhammad himself was accused by his adversaries of having been inspired by jinn ("majnun"). But there are also evil jinn, who contrive to injure men.

17. The Qur’an is perfect.

In that it contains all the directions required for a fulfilling life

18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.

Archaic Arabic, with Judeo-Christian and other roots familiar in use at the time but now not so much.

19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.

No idea what they are.

20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.

Actually Buddhism follows self-actualisation which is also what the Quran promotes, so the teachings are not adverse to Muslims

21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.

Correct. This is all there is

22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.

In times of war or under circumstances when men are less in number, women may marry an already married man for the purpose of having a family or for economic protection, if they so desire, yes. Women must consent to the marriage.

23. Homosexual sex is a sin.

Not addressed in the Quran at all

24. There is an afterlife.

Yes, though what it entails is unknown

25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.

Yes everyone is accountable for every atom of good or bad they do.

27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.

For a Muslim, yes, otherwise they would not be Muslims

28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.

Anyone who does not believe in Islam is not a Muslim anyway. Does not really matter whether they change to another belief or not.

32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
33. The worship of idols is a sin.

Doesn't stop Muslims from idolising the Prophet, does it?
Anyway what other people do is no business of any Muslim

34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.

Also because they are under dictators and most of them don't really study the religion anyway, just follow the rules laid down in their society blindly.

35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.

For Muslims, probably yes. However there are other people in the world who are not Muslim, so its not a realistic notion.

36. Atheism is a sin.
37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.

Religious freedom is a given in the Quran, and jiziya is taken, inter alia, for maintenance of religion structures, so the above two are not true, or at the least, not open to judgment by men.

38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.

That is a decision for parents to make. An atheist will not teach his child Islam.

39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.

In what context? An ideal Islamic government would be secular, but human nature would make it highly unlikely, few secular governments are secular anyway.

40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.

All politically motivated, no religious reasons.

42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.

Sure why not? Muslims are taxed too, and to a greater extent; non-Muslims should pay tax as well, just like in all countries.

43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.

Depends entirely on the government. What think you of the Patriot Act?

So, what I’m curious about is: Where do Moderate Muslims differ in belief?

The basic beliefs are identical in all Muslims they differ mostly in the importance they give to practice of the religion and the religious freedom they give themselves as well as others, this is related more to their education and socio-economic status as well as their awareness of Islamic theology than anything else. The less people know about the religion, the more likely they are to have erroneous beliefs about it and the more vulnerable they are to exploitation and brain washing.

 

[lightgigantic]

Sam

“
21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
”
Correct. This is all there is

is there a scriptural reference or commentary for this?

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam

is there a scriptural reference or commentary for this?

Hmm thats a general belief, but no, I don't believe there is a scriptural reference for it.

edit:

I found this:

Mainstream Islam rejects the concept of reincarnation. Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection may constitute apostasy in Islam.

A very few sufi groups believe in reincarnation [1] claiming that this concept is mentioned in Quran 2:28:

"How can you deny God, when you were dead and God gave you life? Then God will cause you to die, and then revive you, and then you will be returned to God." (Quran 2:28)

The mainstream Islam rejects this understanding of the verse, claiming that it refers to the worldly human life and the consequent resurrection in the hereafter.

It is claimed by some sufi groups that the mystics and poets in the Islam tradition have celebrated this belief:

"I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man,
To soar with angels blest;
But even from angelhood I must pass on ..."
(excerpt from Masnawi, by Hazrat)

In his Masnavi, Rumi speaks about the "seventy-two forms I have worn".

 

[lightgigantic]

Hmm thats a general belief, but no, I don't believe there is a scriptural reference for it.

any ideas how it came about?

 

[S.A.M.]

any ideas how it came about?

see my edit.

see also this:
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm

 

[lightgigantic]

I just found this

OUTLINE:
Reincarnation is impossible because:
a) Quran refutes its possibility e.g. 2:28
b) Hadith condemns the belief
c) It is a logically impossible phenomenon

A) Quranic Refutation
You were correct in saying that Islam does not believe in
reincarnation. The Holy Qur'an implicitly informs us that there is
no reincarnation. We quote two verses below for your information:

(a) Chapter 23, Verses 99 & 100: Until when death comes to one
of them, he says: My Lord, return me (into the world); that I may
do good which I have left undone. By no means! It is but a word
he speaks; and after them shall be a Barzakh (phase of life between
this world and the Next) until the day they shall be raised (again).
This verse informs us that there is no return to the material world
for the evil doer, and hence he cannot come in the form of any
being back to the earth.

(b)Baqara:28 "How can you deny God while you were lifeless
(before birth); He then granted you life (birth into the world);
thereafter He causes you to die (by transferring your soul to
Barzakh); then He will bring you back to life (on Resurrection)
after which you shall (ultimately) return back unto Him"
This verse asserts the forward direction of the soul's journey
from the world to the Barzakh to the Hereafter and eventually to
God with no possibility of return in any form of incarnation.

 

[S.A.M.]

I just found this

I'll have to look at the original verses. Translations are highly unreliable.

 

[S.A.M.]

Light, what do you think of this?

But Tariq and other critics seem to be confusing reincarnation with transmigration of souls, which are not necessarily the same concepts. He goes on: "The theory of transmigration of souls popularly known as avagaman or punarjanam is non-existent even in the Hindu scriptures proclaimed as the word of God by them. Following are the declarations of two well-renowned scholars of Hindu philosophy. The rishis [seers] of the Vedic era were not aware of punarjanam (Rahul Sankrityayan, Darshan Digdarshan, Kitab Mahal Allahabad, 1992, page 388.

"In the ancient Indian literature, Chandogya [author of an Upanishad] was the first to talk of punarjanam ie besides parloka [the world hereafter] a being takes birth in this loka [this world] also according to deeds. (ibid P.403) There are dozens of Koran-like descriptions of heaven in Vedas, but at no place do the Vedas talk of humans taking rebirth in inferior moulds according to deeds. Much later, the philosophers of the Upanishads presented the idea of transmigration of souls."

Thus the debate goes on. One thing, however, is certain: most of the greatest saints Islam has produced believed in reincarnation and it does constitute a part of many Muslims' belief system. This is primarily caused by a reluctance on the part of many Muslims to believe that God will merely reward or punish human beings on the basis of a lifetime in which they may not have received the guidance necessary to improve their conduct. That God will just be reconciled to their being sent to an eternal life in heaven or hell withouttheir being given another chance to improve themselves becomes a proposition difficult to believe.

See this article:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL25Aa02.html

 

[lightgigantic]

see my edit.

see also this:
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm

do you have any idea what he is exactly talking about here???

But Tariq and other critics seem to be confusing reincarnation with transmigration of souls, which are not necessarily the same concepts. He goes on: "The theory of transmigration of souls popularly known as avagaman or punarjanam is non-existent even in the Hindu scriptures proclaimed as the word of God by them. Following are the declarations of two well-renowned scholars of Hindu philosophy. The rishis [seers] of the Vedic era were not aware of punarjanam (Rahul Sankrityayan, Darshan Digdarshan, Kitab Mahal Allahabad, 1992, page 388.

 

[S.A.M.]

do you have any idea what he is exactly talking about here???

Nope, thats why I asked you. Is it a Vedic concept?

 

[S.A.M.]

[23:99] When death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back.

[23:100] "I will then work righteousness in everything I left." Not true. This is a false claim that he makes. A barrier will separate his soul from this world until resurrection.

[2:28] How can you disbelieve in GOD when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?

Slightly different interpretation here.

 

[lightgigantic]

putting aside their understandings of the chronology of the vedas, i would also contend this

"In the ancient Indian literature, Chandogya [author of an Upanishad] was the first to talk of punarjanam ie besides parloka [the world hereafter] a being takes birth in this loka [this world] also according to deeds. (ibid P.403) There are dozens of Koran-like descriptions of heaven in Vedas, but at no place do the Vedas talk of humans taking rebirth in inferior moulds according to deeds. Much later, the philosophers of the Upanishads presented the idea of transmigration of souls."

there are stacks of scriptural eg.'s of living entities receiving inferior moulds (lower station in the universe/society/species) - in fact they are so common place in the vedas that I think he may be talking about something else again (either that or he has never read much of the vedas ....)

 

[S.A.M.]

putting aside their understandings of the chronology of the vedas, i would also contend this

there are stacks of scriptural eg.'s of living entities receiving inferior moulds (lower station in the universe/society/species) - in fact they are so common place in the vedas that I think he may be talking about something else again (either that or he has never read much of the vedas ....)

Perhaps he is maker finer distinctions between different scriptures? I am not that familiar with details.

 

[S.A.M.]

This is from the wiki page:

* Reincarnation in human form.

Successive lives on earth, usually including a belief in a passage through the spiritual world or inner planes between death and rebirth. This is the most common use of reincarnation (also called "rebirth"). In many versions, eventually there is the potential to escape the cycle, e.g. by joining God, or achieving enlightenment, some kind of self-realization, a spiritual rebirth, entering a spiritual realm, etc.

* Transmigration of the soul

Beings die, and are returned to this or another existence continually, their form upon return being of a 'higher' or 'lower' kind depending upon the virtue (moral quality) of their present life. This presupposes interchange between human and animal souls, at a minimum; plants and stone may be included, as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

 

[Michael]

Hi Sam,

Thanks, sorry about all the questions and even though you seem to be the only Muslim to answer – at least it’s not a complete waste of time as are many of these flame-charred threads.

I am still trying to clear up a few things:

#1
OK, the Bahá'í actually do believe Bahá'u'lláh was a Prophet; A Prophet even greater than Mohammed – or so they think anyway. Well then, with this in mind, is their belief incorrect or correct?

Also,lets suppose the Bahá'í Faith begins to win many many Muslim converts – from within a mostly Islamic country. Assuming you are in a position of influence - What would you do to address the title-wave of Muslim converts into the Bahá'í Faith? Suppose, millions of Muslims are leaving Islam and becoming Bahá'í - what do you do? Applaud their religious enlightenment or discourage Muslims to Bahá'í conversion?

#2
I’m still not clear. Was Mohammed sinless?

#3
Four questions:
A) Did Mohammed personally kill anyone?
B) Did Mohammed order the death of anyone?
C) As the leader, did Mohammed allow the death of people when it was within his power to prevent these deaths?
D) Morally speaking: Is there a difference between ‘A’ ‘B’ or ‘C’?

# 4
Is pork more or less unhealthy than chicken or beef? Japanese eat pork all day everyday – they live longer than anyone on the planet (I personally suspect that eating fish meat with a mostly vegetarian diet the best). Anyway, I have never read in a medical journal that eating pork is any worse than is eating most any other mammalian meat.
Do you think there is something inherently unhealthy about pork over and above other mammalian meat? If so why?

#6
To be clear, there is only one reality? Anyone who thinks there is more than one God (or that there is no God) is incorrect in their beleif?

#7
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God or has, in some manner, error?

#8
Yes or no, polytheists are correct or incorrect in their belief?

#9
The Qur’an is or is not ‘perfect’?

#11
While not a Buddhists, I was under the impression that the basic underlying belief in Buddhism is that a plane of reality, outside of the Karma Cycle, exists. This reality is above the Gods (above Allah) and it is a reality that you may one day reach. There may be many Gods, Allah may be one of them, you may reach a higher state of consciousness than Allah.

Not ‘just for Muslims’ but in ‘reality (that is, the real world as you know it): Is this belief correct?

#12
To be clear:
Is it correct or incorrect behavior to destroy Idols that people worship as Gods?

#13
I think the Patriot Act sucks arse! I am also willing to live with f*ck-up Laws like it if my society can learn from these mistakes and become better for it. As I understand - the Patriot Act as it stands will not be renewed by the new Congress?

So with this in mind I was unclear:
A society ran by Shiara Law is better than one ran by any single set of Secular laws?

Getting there


Michael


# Is this correct: Summary so Far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- A special tax for non-Muslims is good.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hi Sam,

Thanks, sorry about all the questions and even though you seem to be the only Muslim to answer – at least it’s not a complete waste of time as are many of these flame-charred threads.

I am still trying to clear up a few things:

Ok

#1
OK, the Bahá'í actually do believe Bahá'u'lláh was a Prophet; A Prophet even greater than Mohammed – or so they think anyway. Well then, with this in mind, is their belief incorrect or correct?

Well the Christians think Jesus is divine right? So the messengers are not responsible for what people make of them.

According to Bahá'u'lláh, it was during his imprisonment in the Síyáh-Chál that he received a vision of a Maiden from God, through whom he received his mission as a Messenger of God and as the One whose coming the Báb had prophesied

Anyway, my position (as a moderate Muslim) is that everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of faith. Ours is not to reason why, etc.

Also,lets suppose the Bahá'í Faith begins to win many many Muslim converts – from within a mostly Islamic country. Assuming you are in a position of influence - What would you do to address the title-wave of Muslim converts into the Bahá'í Faith? Suppose, millions of Muslims are leaving Islam and becoming Bahá'í - what do you do? Applaud their religious enlightenment or discourage Muslims to Bahá'í conversion?

See above.

#2
I’m still not clear. Was Mohammed sinless?

He was a Prophet, so yes, he is considered to be sinless.

#3
Four questions:
A) Did Mohammed personally kill anyone?
B) Did Mohammed order the death of anyone?
C) As the leader, did Mohammed allow the death of people when it was within his power to prevent these deaths?
D) Morally speaking: Is there a difference between ‘A’ ‘B’ or ‘C’?

A. No idea
B. No idea
C. He did not advocate killing people, if thats what you're asking. There is some Hadith about a member of his group killing people during some skirmish and when he heard about it, Mohammed was stricken and asked God that he not be held responsible for it.

# 4
Is pork more or less unhealthy than chicken or beef? Japanese eat pork all day everyday – they live longer than anyone on the planet (I personally suspect that eating fish meat with a mostly vegetarian diet the best). Anyway, I have never read in a medical journal that eating pork is any worse than is eating most any other mammalian meat.
Do you think there is something inherently unhealthy about pork over and above other mammalian meat? If so why?

Its essential to cook pork really well to get rid of parasites it is commonly associated with, e.g. trichinosis and toxoplasmosis

Pigs also share some viral infections with humans, so people are more likely to get exposure on eating pork.

Some diseases are exclusive to non-Muslims:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1125409

#6
To be clear, there is only one reality? Anyone who thinks there is more than one God (or that there is no God) is incorrect in their beleif?

See above

#7
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God or has, in some manner, error?

The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Is it still inerrant?
Who knows?

#8
Yes or no, polytheists are correct or incorrect in their belief?

If they are Muslims they are.

If they are not Muslims, its really none of my concern what they believe.

#9
The Qur’an is or is not ‘perfect’?

Did I miss something here?
Its a perfect guide for living.

#11
While not a Buddhists, I was under the impression that the basic underlying belief in Buddhism is that a plane of reality, outside of the Karma Cycle, exists. This reality is above the Gods (above Allah) and it is a reality that you may one day reach. There may be many Gods, Allah may be one of them, you may reach a higher state of consciousness than Allah.

Buddhism can be religious or merely spiritual.

Not ‘just for Muslims’ but in ‘reality (that is, the real world as you know it): Is this belief correct?

In a mixed world, any one religion dominating would have the same effect as any one group dominating, others would be assigned a minority status.

#12
To be clear:
Is it correct or incorrect behavior to destroy Idols that people worship as Gods?

Incorrect, of course. One is only responsible for one's own faith, no one elses.

#13
I think the Patriot Act sucks arse! I am also willing to live with f*ck-up Laws like it if my society can learn from these mistakes and become better for it. As I understand - the Patriot Act as it stands will not be renewed by the new Congress?

The very fact that it can be written and passed speaks volumes.

So with this in mind I was unclear:
A society ran by Shiara Law is better than one ran by any single set of Secular laws?

Sharia is no different from other laws. Laws are selected and applied based on the government in power and can be as liberal or as conservative as the government applying it. In a democratoc set up, Sharia can be useful, not much different from secular laws.

# Is this correct: Summary so Far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- A special tax for non-Muslims is good.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.

Yup. Just to clarify, there is also a "special tax" on Muslims from which non-Muslims are exempt, so its not a special tax, so much as reduced tax used for different purposes. This can be emphasised by the fact that all Muslims continue to pay their religious dues (zakat) in addition to government taxes, regardless of whether they are in a Muslim or non-Muslim country.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

A mere human cannot be sinless, only the One who claims to be the Son of God could be sinless, and after reading about Muhammed's antics, he clearly was not sinless anyway.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

"He (Muhammed) did not advocate killing people," is that a joke Sam?

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Hey Sam, did Muhammed advocate Muslim theocracies wherever they could be established?