Please, no 'God doesn't exist' or 'religion needs no proof' comments. Now, if God is omniscient and knows what will happen at any time any where as He is also timeless (I understand it that He is not just eternal, but is not bound to time and is aware of all that will happen in the future as well as what is happening now), how could He create humans with free will? He knows everything that all people, angels, creatures, etc will do. By knowing what they will do, and creating them in one distinct way so that He knows they'll do it, there is no free will. He has created us to operate in one way, as was intended at the moment of our creation, and if He knows that then there can't be any variation. I can't figure out where free will comes in, because if we have it then there has to be variation and therefore a lack of omniscience. I'd appreciate enlightenment on this, thanks.
Free Will?
- Thread starter yuri_sakazaki
- Start date
he knows all of the possible outcomes of every single possible decision every single person could ever make?
P1: You have free will which is given to you by God.
P2: To believe in God and serve Him is a matter of choice, not of must or predetermination.
I1: When making choices, you apply your free will.
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C: To choose God as your master is an act of free will.
I to C: Free will and God are not mutually exclusive, as it is free will that enables you to choose God as your master.
Now we can argue about the validity of the premises, but the conclusion follows.
P2: To believe in God and serve Him is a matter of choice, not of must or predetermination.
I1: When making choices, you apply your free will.
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C: To choose God as your master is an act of free will.
I to C: Free will and God are not mutually exclusive, as it is free will that enables you to choose God as your master.
Now we can argue about the validity of the premises, but the conclusion follows.
yuki: I posted this some time back, you may want to read this thread, it will help you.yuri_sakazaki said:
to be omniscient, omnipotent negates free will.
and welcome to our happy home.
If God is omnipotent, omnipresent and has his own free-will then omniscience, specifically the knowledge of future, has no relevance for him. That is, with his omnipotence and his own free-will, he will decide the future, not necessarily restrict himself to a predetermined future.
yuri_sakazaki said:
yuri Just because God know what everyone who ever lives will do does not mean He takes away there free will to do whatever they will do. I have seen a lot of people who cannot get their minds around this fact.
Yuri lets just imagine that you had access to a time machine and traveled forward in time 10 years. you then saw what your child was doing on that day. Does your knowing what your child will be doing on that day in 10 years time take away that child’s free will to do whatever they are going to do on that day???? Do you know have a kind of mind control over them? Certainly not. Just because you know what they will do does not mean you now control what they do.
All Praise the Ancient of Days
firstly lets expand on you theme just for the fun of it.adstar said:
Ie on that day your son goes on a killing spree, and kills fifty people.
so in answer, of course it does, because you know you cant change it, (which negates your free will) and your son cant change if you told him, because it's pre ordained(which negates his free will).
mustafhakofi said:
why not? Isn't it just one possibility of what will happen? How is it that what you saw in that time machine is what will inevitably happen?
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Then you're into the realms of parallel universe theory - where every possible decision spawns new universes, each one taking a different branch along the decision tree.Ozymandias said:
That's because what you suppose is logically impossible.Adstar said:
Such a God can not give you free-will to choose between A and B when your God also knows that you will choose A.
In such an instance there is no possibility that you can choose B.
If you do - your God is wrong and thus is not omniscient.
Omniscience is mutually exclusive from such an idea of free-will.
So one idea must be reviewed.
Either your God is not omniscient... OR... you do not have free-will as you believe.
Or am I missing something / have a wrong understanding of your idea of free-will or omniscience?
Ozymandias: he knows all of the possible outcomes of every single possible decision every single person could ever make.
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M*W: ...and he just sits up there on a cloud laughing at theists scrambling around trying to please him knowing full well that no matter what good or evil we do, we will all die in the end, and he will simply continue laughing because he merely created us for the sole purpose of his entertainment.
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M*W: ...and he just sits up there on a cloud laughing at theists scrambling around trying to please him knowing full well that no matter what good or evil we do, we will all die in the end, and he will simply continue laughing because he merely created us for the sole purpose of his entertainment.
free= without restriction.
will= determine and control self or an event.
an awareness of the outcome of another persons actions does not affect there decisions.
if B was chosen god is not omniscient. god failed to see your choice.
however there is no possibility of choosing B the reason for there being no possibility is not because he has prevented you from choosing by restricting your choices.
the reason there is no possibility of choosing B is because A has already been chosen.
if you have chosen A in the future you cannot possibly choose B in the future.
please read this carefully before lampooning me
will= determine and control self or an event.
an awareness of the outcome of another persons actions does not affect there decisions.
the fact god knows you will choose A means he can see the consequence of your choice.Sarkus said:
if B was chosen god is not omniscient. god failed to see your choice.
however there is no possibility of choosing B the reason for there being no possibility is not because he has prevented you from choosing by restricting your choices.
the reason there is no possibility of choosing B is because A has already been chosen.
if you have chosen A in the future you cannot possibly choose B in the future.
please read this carefully before lampooning me
TheHeretic
Registered Senior Member
Choice is simply and illusion, due to our adanced central nervous system.
adstar: "Yuri lets just imagine that you had access to a time machine and traveled forward in time 10 years. you then saw what your child was doing on that day. Does your knowing what your child will be doing on that day in 10 years time take away that child’s free will to do whatever they are going to do on that day???? Do you know have a kind of mind control over them? Certainly not. Just because you know what they will do does not mean you now control what they do."
No, I don't have mind control over my son (if I had one), but I didn't create my hypothetical son in a specific way, and knowing everything that he would do (because I am omnipotent). So because God knows everything he will do and is always right, my son can't do anything different than what God knows he will do and therefore doesn't have a choice in it. Sarkus stated my exact problem. Either God is not omnipotent or we do not have free will and I've never seen any religious figure explain around this or clarify which is true.
No, I don't have mind control over my son (if I had one), but I didn't create my hypothetical son in a specific way, and knowing everything that he would do (because I am omnipotent). So because God knows everything he will do and is always right, my son can't do anything different than what God knows he will do and therefore doesn't have a choice in it. Sarkus stated my exact problem. Either God is not omnipotent or we do not have free will and I've never seen any religious figure explain around this or clarify which is true.
You see yuri i was right people are restricted by there human logic. Human logic trapped in human thinking. trying to define God from a human perspective.
God is foolishness for those trapped in human logic. But God reveals mysteries to those who believe in Him.
I did not expect that the explanation i gave would be understood. But the question was asked and those whom God has allowed to understand will.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
adstar, I was just saying that your analogy doesn't really work because I would not have created my son in a certain way knowing everything that he would do at the time of his creation. The quote you picked out to show as an example of not understanding made complete sense to me. I, for about no reason other than I like the idea of free will so much, believe in free will and therefore not God's omnipotence. I think if there is a God (I'm not sure, as everyone is not sure but I do not place my uncertain belief toward His absence or presence) He would have to not be omnipotent, and created the world and His creatures in a way that He thought would most likely reach a certain utopia or meaning eventually but doesn't have absolute control over it. Our purpose then would be to lead it toward the intended utopia and then leave others' free will to further lead it. But I'm coming up with this out of the blue and mostly just based on that there is a God and there is free will and God is not omniscient and all because it seems appealing to me. So it's probably all bull. Anyway, do with my idea as you like or continue trying to explain my original problem through my thick skull.
on the contrary,Adstar said:
believers are restricted by their blind FAITH
what perspective should humans look at god from,if not humans?
circular reasoning...
god doesnt reveal anything,
its believers making up explanations for their particular deity
screw the ancient days which were full of superstitions,
when Christianity ruled it was called Dark ages
Adstar, by all means please explain how it IS possible. We have given our logical reasoning for it not being possible, yet you claim it is.Adstar said:
Please explain.
All you have so far done is merely state that it is possible - with no explanation.
But then again, you seem to believe that your God has only allowed certain people to understand - so your God must have created me without the ability to understand?
Which means your God does not create all men equally!
Hmmm. Such a nice deity you believe in.
here are a few conundrums from R V Finley.
1 God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2 Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3 Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4 Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5 Free-will doesn't exist.
1 God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.
2 God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
3 God has no Free-will.
1 The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2 Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3 To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4 A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5 God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will.
6 Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7 Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
1 Prayer is sometimes used to ask God to change a situation in one's life or anothers.
2 God has a divine plan that cannot be changed.
3 Prayer cannot be used to change any situation.
1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)
so you can see if your a believer, you'll find theres no free will for you or god, and you waste you time praying, as nothing will change.
incidently god does'nt exist, as you can see.
1 God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2 Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3 Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4 Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5 Free-will doesn't exist.
1 God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.
2 God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
3 God has no Free-will.
1 The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2 Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3 To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4 A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5 God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will.
6 Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7 Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
1 Prayer is sometimes used to ask God to change a situation in one's life or anothers.
2 God has a divine plan that cannot be changed.
3 Prayer cannot be used to change any situation.
1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)
so you can see if your a believer, you'll find theres no free will for you or god, and you waste you time praying, as nothing will change.
incidently god does'nt exist, as you can see.