He knows more than our future. Look at it this way: our futures are written in our hearts - God can read it, we must live it. Everything we think and do and choose shows who we are and what's in our hearts. What comes out of it is like light from a lightbulb, or fruit from a tree. What God is interested is the heart itself. The lightbulb is predestined to shine or die, it's light does whatever the bulb does. In other words, our actions aren't predestined by God (they're destined by us), but our lives are ultimately in God's hands.Votorx said:
Free will cancels out the idea of god
- Thread starter Votorx
- Start date
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Jenyar: I do not know where you get all that, but it is not accurate, nor does it make much sense, in all due respect, of course. Pmt
*************Jenyar said:
M*W: So, essentially, you are saying that it really doesn't matter what we do with our lives, or what we hear in our hearts, everything's "ultimately in God's hands." Sounds to me there is no free will from what you have stated.
Furthermore, our human perception of our creator should be generic. We've got the Christian God (huh?), Allah, Jesus, YHWH, JWs, Buddha, Shiva, Krishna, I am that I am, Taoism... There is no shortage of available gods to fit our perception. The flaw in this is that there is only one creator of all, but we judge our creator by a name that is familiar to us, then let the fights begin! The problem with humanity is it is too devisive. One god should be enough for all of us, because that's all there is. We belong to the One Spirit of God. The One Spirit of God IS US! We will continue to rant "my god can beat your god up" until we understand that one size god fits all. The inbred godliness created within us is the goodness that directs our lives. It is the community we find with others. It forms our relationship with the whole universe. We are all One. We are all interconnected with each other. We are the face of God on Earth. When God asked Cain where Abel was, the correct answer would have been, "My brother and I are one."
Preacher_X
Registered Senior Member
the answer is simple. there is either a God or not. the answer depends on the individual. science has proven that 15 Billion years ago the universe was created at a certain point and it will come to an end at a certain point from now. before that nothing existed including time and space. it would be impossible to imagine what the universe was like before the Big Bang because "nothing" (and this really is "nothing") is unimaginable. when someone asks you to imagine nothing, in your head, you'll probably be thinking something like a blank white space with "nothing" there. well even this is wrong. first off white is something and the actual "space" that "nothing" covers is something! and before the big bang according to science and religion these things didn't exsist (it is impossible for these to exists). not even the space that nothing covers existed or the time that "nothing" existed for. if it is scientifically proven that something as bizarre as this is possible then why is the idea of God ridiculous to some people. also it is proven that the universe will inevitably come to an end, which is according to (some) religions going to be the doomsday.
CONCLUSION
the common argument for atheism is that if God made the universe, then what made God, well if humans can't even imagine "nothing" then how on earth can we imagine what God can do.
CONCLUSION
the common argument for atheism is that if God made the universe, then what made God, well if humans can't even imagine "nothing" then how on earth can we imagine what God can do.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
One's ignorance does not cause something not to exist. In the same way, one's acceptance that there is a lack of evidence does not make it so. Perhaps to you there is no evidence of God; perhaps to SOME scientists there is no evidence of God, but I am here to tell you, there is definitely evidence, and much of it. Nor is this vain imagination by some weak-willed non-informed hopefuls. Perhaps you are blinded by your prejudices. as MW put it, we have all these preconceived ideas and try to define God in our own terms. Or, perhaps some throw God out with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Well I never believed in those things, but I know Who made the universe. As Stuart Hamlin so aptly put it: I know not what the future holds, but I know who holds the future. It must be boring to think you know so much. It always surprises me, but then I have lived for many decades, and I have seen a lot of retractions, a lot of nonsense, and a lot of good sense. Everyone has read a book, and has the answers. I know my Creator, and He knows the answers, and I am glad, because I have a lot of questions! 
.....pmt
.....pmtI appreciate your opinion - that's why we're here! Please tell me where you disagree. I was trying to put my feelings about the matter into words (I think in images), but of course that doesn't mean I've taken everything into account.P. M. Thorne said:
Here is my reasoning. Jesus said it's what comes from the heart that makes a person unclean (i.e. a sinner; Matt.18:15). If God was only interested in our actions, He would not have said that.
Luke 6:45
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
If God determined everything we did - and not us - then we are automatons and He would not have to ask our love. That's why I said we choose what we do, but ultimately everything plays into God's hands.The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are still babbling on about an ancient idea of god. The God which is described in those ancient books cannot be the correct description of a god. It's like believing we can go to the moon strapped and sitting on the back of a rocket - dan dare I think - It's outdated..
To think and describe a god you have to move forward with the times. If there is a god he/she/it will be bigger than anything the human race has ever encountered. I don't believe that the human race will ever find the true answers to the creation of the universe, why it happened and why we are here.
So until a better explanation of god comes up than the Bible gives - then I don't believe there is one.
To think and describe a god you have to move forward with the times. If there is a god he/she/it will be bigger than anything the human race has ever encountered. I don't believe that the human race will ever find the true answers to the creation of the universe, why it happened and why we are here.
So until a better explanation of god comes up than the Bible gives - then I don't believe there is one.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
“ Originally Posted by P. M. Thorne
Jenyar: I do not know where you get all that, but it is not accurate, nor does it make much sense, in all due respect, of course. Pmt ”
IN ANSWER TO JENYAR, WHO WROTE: "I appreciate your opinion - that's why we're here! Please tell me where you disagree. I was trying to put my feelings about the matter into words (I think in images), but of course that doesn't mean I've taken everything into account."
Okay, let me first say that I believe you have really oversimplified in that one post. Perhaps your meaning is not clear to me, but it does sound kind of loose, if you know what I mean. You talk so much about our heart and, my argument is that you over playing a statement, possibly that "man looks on the outward appearance,but God looks on the heart." If one thinks about this statement, it should be no surprise, (and not that you said it was), but of course, man looks on the outward appearance, where else? I do not think that was any condemnation to man, but rather a reminder that God can see far more than man,...regarding man.
YOUR REASONING AS STATED BY YOU: "Here is my reasoning. Jesus said it's what comes from the heart that makes a person unclean (i.e. a sinner; Matt.18:15). If God was only interested in our actions, He would not have said that. Luke 6:45"
This verse is, first of all within a parable, and secondly, it is talking about the treasures of the heart, and what is our treasure but things that are not temporal, "where moth and trust does not corrupt, nor do thieves break in and steal." As for the "unclean" part, I think you must be referring to the verse that says it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out," and then Mark quotes Christ as saying that out of the heart of man comes evil thoughts, etc., and the that all these evil things come from within, and defile a man. This does not mean, (I would argue) that our "hearts" tell us what to do. That is rather metaphorical and needs to be laid out. There is also a verse that says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it." These cannot be taken out of context and be expected to make much sense or not be contradictory. One could could say numerous about the "heart" of man and have it be true, so we need to clarify, I think. Christ was making a contrast between worrying about what one eats with what one is, so to speak. Poor old Jeremiah was probably having a bad day. Yet, what he said is also true. God knows our heart all right, but this is changing thing, not some pre-programed m.o. caused by good intentions. Our "hearts" can deceive even us.
YOU WROTE: "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."
I am not sure where you get the "stored up" part. Out of the abundance of the heart, or the fullness of the heart, or that to which we give priority, but this can change. No one is always good. It is simply not in us to always be good. You have to watch those parables, just as you would scrutinized anything written that long ago, plus one needs to consider the point that was being made. Parables or analogies are not like factual statements, they are simply to make a point, not to create a whole concept.
YOU WROTE: "If God determined everything we did - and not us - then we are automatons and He would not have to ask our love. That's why I said we choose what we do, but ultimately everything plays into God's hands."
Now, there is a statement that means almost nothing as stated, "everything plays into God's hands." How can anyone know what you mean by that? As I said before, our choices are within limitations. They always are, and we have many limitations, from physical to financial, from emotional to intellectual, from spiritual to imaginary, but when they feel like needs, we are soon cognizant of the limitations that come with our options. Even imagination seems at times to have its limits, but that is another discussion.
Let me give you an example about will power, which is in essence a product, if there be such a thing of free will. "Will power," is mostly a joke when it stands alone. Desire is what gets us to change. When we favor one thought over another, we thing about that thought that we favor; when we favor one way of behaving over another to a great enough extent, then and then only will we change our behavior. Just to claim will power without motivation, and strong motivation at that is useless. In this same way, free will, is a fairy tale, unless we have a purpose that we are pursuing that is in harmony with this universe that God made. Anyway, that is my argument, for whatever it is worth, because to say that we have free will in so complex a world is a bit staggering, and yet we do have choices that can be really bad, or really good, but only with limitations.
I trust that I have clarified, to some point, my initial disagreement, and thank you for your courtesy. PMT
Jenyar: I do not know where you get all that, but it is not accurate, nor does it make much sense, in all due respect, of course. Pmt ”
IN ANSWER TO JENYAR, WHO WROTE: "I appreciate your opinion - that's why we're here! Please tell me where you disagree. I was trying to put my feelings about the matter into words (I think in images), but of course that doesn't mean I've taken everything into account."
Okay, let me first say that I believe you have really oversimplified in that one post. Perhaps your meaning is not clear to me, but it does sound kind of loose, if you know what I mean. You talk so much about our heart and, my argument is that you over playing a statement, possibly that "man looks on the outward appearance,but God looks on the heart." If one thinks about this statement, it should be no surprise, (and not that you said it was), but of course, man looks on the outward appearance, where else? I do not think that was any condemnation to man, but rather a reminder that God can see far more than man,...regarding man.
YOUR REASONING AS STATED BY YOU: "Here is my reasoning. Jesus said it's what comes from the heart that makes a person unclean (i.e. a sinner; Matt.18:15). If God was only interested in our actions, He would not have said that. Luke 6:45"
This verse is, first of all within a parable, and secondly, it is talking about the treasures of the heart, and what is our treasure but things that are not temporal, "where moth and trust does not corrupt, nor do thieves break in and steal." As for the "unclean" part, I think you must be referring to the verse that says it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out," and then Mark quotes Christ as saying that out of the heart of man comes evil thoughts, etc., and the that all these evil things come from within, and defile a man. This does not mean, (I would argue) that our "hearts" tell us what to do. That is rather metaphorical and needs to be laid out. There is also a verse that says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it." These cannot be taken out of context and be expected to make much sense or not be contradictory. One could could say numerous about the "heart" of man and have it be true, so we need to clarify, I think. Christ was making a contrast between worrying about what one eats with what one is, so to speak. Poor old Jeremiah was probably having a bad day. Yet, what he said is also true. God knows our heart all right, but this is changing thing, not some pre-programed m.o. caused by good intentions. Our "hearts" can deceive even us.
YOU WROTE: "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."
I am not sure where you get the "stored up" part. Out of the abundance of the heart, or the fullness of the heart, or that to which we give priority, but this can change. No one is always good. It is simply not in us to always be good. You have to watch those parables, just as you would scrutinized anything written that long ago, plus one needs to consider the point that was being made. Parables or analogies are not like factual statements, they are simply to make a point, not to create a whole concept.
YOU WROTE: "If God determined everything we did - and not us - then we are automatons and He would not have to ask our love. That's why I said we choose what we do, but ultimately everything plays into God's hands."
Now, there is a statement that means almost nothing as stated, "everything plays into God's hands." How can anyone know what you mean by that? As I said before, our choices are within limitations. They always are, and we have many limitations, from physical to financial, from emotional to intellectual, from spiritual to imaginary, but when they feel like needs, we are soon cognizant of the limitations that come with our options. Even imagination seems at times to have its limits, but that is another discussion.
Let me give you an example about will power, which is in essence a product, if there be such a thing of free will. "Will power," is mostly a joke when it stands alone. Desire is what gets us to change. When we favor one thought over another, we thing about that thought that we favor; when we favor one way of behaving over another to a great enough extent, then and then only will we change our behavior. Just to claim will power without motivation, and strong motivation at that is useless. In this same way, free will, is a fairy tale, unless we have a purpose that we are pursuing that is in harmony with this universe that God made. Anyway, that is my argument, for whatever it is worth, because to say that we have free will in so complex a world is a bit staggering, and yet we do have choices that can be really bad, or really good, but only with limitations.
I trust that I have clarified, to some point, my initial disagreement, and thank you for your courtesy. PMT
On the contrary, you would be imagining a blank BLACK VOID. That WOULD actually be nothing since it would be the product of the absence of EVERYTHING. So now that I can imagine nothing I have the right to imagine what god can do correct?
But I clearly believe that my evidence on why God cannot exist is valid. It's just as easy to contradict this idea by saying the Bible's wrong. But how many times are we going to say the bible's wrong before we just the dubb the whole book as fake? You say there is alot of evidence accepting the fact God exists, what evidence would this be?
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Votorx: Not sure you would have the time, but! that sounds flip, and I do not mean it that way. Think about this, if you will. I am most serious. Forget church, Christians that irritate you, and even the bible, for a moment. Let us talk only about God, and for a moment, say there is a God, but you honestly cannot accept this knowing what you know. What would it take, Votorx, what kind of sign, miracle, or whatever would it take? Would writing in the sky do it? Of course not. How about your being smitten on your way somewhere, and have a voice speak out the clouds..... Hmm, they would hawl you away. A physical healing? Naw, that is too easily explained away. A vision, perhaps? Probably not; the first thing Robert Monroe did was be checked for physical, mental and neurological (sp?) disorders, and if I started having vision, I too would be concerned, so I think you might. So, would it take. I know! I know! I know what it would take. It would take something from within, a reassurance so strong that it could not be denied; a feeling of a presence, not like anything else, that could not be explained away with man's words and limited knowledge; a love like you have never before known, a peace, a joy.............those types of things.
I cannot prove God to you, but I can tell you this, my friend. If you are so impressed with not believing and not caring, how could you possibly be giving yourself the opportunity to know that God is?
These questions I give you, and I trust you to allow yourself to know the answers. I do not think it is up to me to prove to people that God is. You have the same tools as I do, and the same resources. Yet, I would never hesitate to assure you that God is, and that it just might be your prejudices toward other things that are keeping you from the truth of it.
We humans have a problem acknowledging that we need one another, and it usually takes a natural disaster, or something like 9/11, to show us just how good it is to come together; so, how much more difficult it is for those in the nest of "higher learning" to acknowledge they "need" to relate to God and His creation, of which we are all a part.
Sometimes folks too educated to believe in God recommend that believers test their old ideas. I approve of this; however, your ideas will one day be old. How old will they be before you test them?
Thank you for responding. pmt
I cannot prove God to you, but I can tell you this, my friend. If you are so impressed with not believing and not caring, how could you possibly be giving yourself the opportunity to know that God is?
These questions I give you, and I trust you to allow yourself to know the answers. I do not think it is up to me to prove to people that God is. You have the same tools as I do, and the same resources. Yet, I would never hesitate to assure you that God is, and that it just might be your prejudices toward other things that are keeping you from the truth of it.
We humans have a problem acknowledging that we need one another, and it usually takes a natural disaster, or something like 9/11, to show us just how good it is to come together; so, how much more difficult it is for those in the nest of "higher learning" to acknowledge they "need" to relate to God and His creation, of which we are all a part.
Sometimes folks too educated to believe in God recommend that believers test their old ideas. I approve of this; however, your ideas will one day be old. How old will they be before you test them?
Thank you for responding. pmt
Obviously you know nothing about me PMT which, of course is not your fault or anyone else on these forums. A little backround of myself. I have been baptized, I have gone to CCD, I've studied the bible and used to commit myself to church every sunday. I've gone through commitement and even participated during the sermons. At sme time I believed whole heartedly that god existed and Jesus really did forgive our sins. Unfortunetly I became 12/13 and began wondering and questioning the bible. The questions I asked were always answered the same way, this answer would be "Faith". How could go be created? "He has always been" How come God doesn't show himself? "It is God's Plan" Why does the bible say this why does it say that, how is that possible where does this happen why doesn't it happen now how can the universe be created this way why does the bible contradict itself where did the bible come from why are there so many false stories in the bible that you even admit to being wrong? Question after question I've asked the priest and my bible teachers only be answered with a "Only God knows" or "Faith". Only family pressure eventually led me to getting my communion but after that I secretly denounced my religion. 1 to many unanswered questions led me to believe God cannot exist and I will not allow myself to follow a book which so obviously 1. Shows no reliable evidence, 2. Very little historical context, 3. Contradicts itself hundreds of times. and 4. Bases its facts on something that requires "Faith" by itself.
If the bible was made through the influence of god then it should be perfect, instead it has more flaws and unrealistic ideas than my book on the Garage eaters during first grade, which, by the way, was based on garages that attacked people.
So now I have a question for you. Is it really this "faith" this "love" which keeps you so close to your idea of god, or rather you NEED for the idea of the god or an all powerful protector, which, as seen so many times, allows billions of good people to die for no reason.
If the bible was made through the influence of god then it should be perfect, instead it has more flaws and unrealistic ideas than my book on the Garage eaters during first grade, which, by the way, was based on garages that attacked people.
So now I have a question for you. Is it really this "faith" this "love" which keeps you so close to your idea of god, or rather you NEED for the idea of the god or an all powerful protector, which, as seen so many times, allows billions of good people to die for no reason.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Votorx: Of course, I know nothing about you, and in no way do I pretend to rise above you, Sir. But I did sense that you had old prejudices, for whatever reason. I could have been wrong, but it seems I was not. Believe it or not, I understand more than you would have thought. You sound real, and boy is that nice. I do not care so much what people believe if they are real. (my preference) So, let me be straight with you. There was a time, and not a short time I might add, when I was so put out that it almost irritated me for someone to say, "I am a Christian," and when they said, "I am a born again Christian," it was almost too much for me. It took a long time for me to stop searching for "a good church for me." I am rather convinced that churches in general do not sufficiently appeal to me, for me to want to attend on any regular basis; in fact, I almost never attend. I no longer feel like I want to kick something , but I cannot keep my mouth shut, so it is best that I stay put, I think.
But, this has nothing to do with my connection with my creator. Do not get me wrong, I love Christian people, and appreciate their points of view as much as I can. They look at me with doubtful eyes, but that is okay. I am an intense person, and I believe all the way to my toes. You decide the reason, if mine is not enough for you.
I was never Catholic. My earlier life, say the first seven years will fill books, and the next seven were rather pitiful, then I went to Bible School. That was a very good experience for me. It was actually a school of higher learning, but I was kept out of sympathy, and the older ones, (17-25 or so) helped me learn more things than I could count. It was this feeling of being safe and eating well, of having solid friendships and so forth that molded me, and I shall forever be grateful. Religiously, it made me more devisive, more doctrinal, and more emphatic. For the next eight or nine years--for the most part--I may as well have been a monk. There was something good about those years, but also something not so good. It seems that from there on I have had trouble, so to speak, with church. It took years for me to realize that the intense faith I felt, the relationship I felt, the comfort I felt, did not come from church, but was in me. That is probably more than enough about me, but I have so much freedom, and I feel perfectly okay saying, "I do not believe that." But not believing "that," whatever "that" happens to be, does not compel me to toss the whole notion of God Almighty. Of course, I feel a need for God. I feel a need for water and food and air and sun. I feel connected to the earth, the universe, you and others. I do. Do I need these things. Yes, I think so. Is this need what makes me believe their is a universe? Hmm. Never thought of that, perhaps some of it is. I am part of all that is, so hmm. Maybe I believe in people, because I feel a need to; I cannot say for sure about these things.
You are right to question; you are right to doubt, but I would argue that this is not a good place to stop. I doubt different things, and let it be known to the only source I trust completely. Even with that I have to keep a window open, just in case I sieved it to suit my preference. I like to know the straight skinny, as one might say. So, I bat things around, because absolutes and "now we know" type things are deceiving. About the only thing I know for sure is that God is...if not, then I too do not exist.
Does this make any sense to you at all?
I appreciate your telling me about yourself. I do.
, but I cannot keep my mouth shut, so it is best that I stay put, I think.But, this has nothing to do with my connection with my creator. Do not get me wrong, I love Christian people, and appreciate their points of view as much as I can. They look at me with doubtful eyes, but that is okay. I am an intense person, and I believe all the way to my toes. You decide the reason, if mine is not enough for you.
I was never Catholic. My earlier life, say the first seven years will fill books, and the next seven were rather pitiful, then I went to Bible School. That was a very good experience for me. It was actually a school of higher learning, but I was kept out of sympathy, and the older ones, (17-25 or so) helped me learn more things than I could count. It was this feeling of being safe and eating well, of having solid friendships and so forth that molded me, and I shall forever be grateful. Religiously, it made me more devisive, more doctrinal, and more emphatic. For the next eight or nine years--for the most part--I may as well have been a monk. There was something good about those years, but also something not so good. It seems that from there on I have had trouble, so to speak, with church. It took years for me to realize that the intense faith I felt, the relationship I felt, the comfort I felt, did not come from church, but was in me. That is probably more than enough about me, but I have so much freedom, and I feel perfectly okay saying, "I do not believe that." But not believing "that," whatever "that" happens to be, does not compel me to toss the whole notion of God Almighty. Of course, I feel a need for God. I feel a need for water and food and air and sun. I feel connected to the earth, the universe, you and others. I do. Do I need these things. Yes, I think so. Is this need what makes me believe their is a universe? Hmm. Never thought of that, perhaps some of it is. I am part of all that is, so hmm. Maybe I believe in people, because I feel a need to; I cannot say for sure about these things.
You are right to question; you are right to doubt, but I would argue that this is not a good place to stop. I doubt different things, and let it be known to the only source I trust completely. Even with that I have to keep a window open, just in case I sieved it to suit my preference. I like to know the straight skinny, as one might say. So, I bat things around, because absolutes and "now we know" type things are deceiving. About the only thing I know for sure is that God is...if not, then I too do not exist.
Does this make any sense to you at all?
I appreciate your telling me about yourself. I do.
Yes it does make sense, but at the same time it only further proves to me that you NEED this religion which may result in you believing in it. As I had posted in a previous thread I was stating the fact that Religion is a form of psychology to keep people sane, safe and good willed. There is a mental necesity for god, people who rely on god need to feel safe and need to feel that there is always someone watching over them, which is very understandable. It gives them a sense of security and an idea that they are always being protected and watched over. Of course there is no way to prove that god exists, unless we experiance the second coming, but by then it would no longer matter now would it? So why is it that you think god needs to exist for you to exist? Are you trying to say that there is no possible way that scientist's theory of the big bang can be true? I am just wondering.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Votorx: You do a rather good job of pronouncing your disagreement without demeaning my argument. I just thought I would mention that.
I have no particular problem with the big bang theory, and love science. One of my more "scholastic" and agnostic boyfriends once took me to a three-hour lecture. His intent was admittedly to have me listen to something non-religious. I enjoyed the lecture far more than he did, which was evident when he offered to leave before it was over and I did not wish to leave. I thought it would be rude, and I was on the edge of my seat, so to speak.
Interestingly, I found nothing about the lecture (scientific in nature, with reference to the "big bang" theory), that would dispel my convictions.
None of us really know. Here is what I believe, put as simply as I can: I believe I was before I came to this earth, and that I will be . . . when I leave this mortal body behind. I do not take the entire Bible literally; you were correct about that. There are some errors; you are correct about that. I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that we are also God's sons, and I am correct about that. Kind of kidding you. Well gosh, I just may be more correct than you think!
You wrote: "people who rely on god need to feel safe and need to feel that there is always someone watching over them"
And you do not? Is this what you are saying. Please do not tell me that you never want a hug, or some kind of reassurance. We are all ministers, whether we want to be or not. We have the option of wasting or improving this earth and to aid or hinder one another. For one to ever think that we can live a life without affecting others, would be moronic, as you, of course, realize as much I do. Therefore, it is through us that God sends his messages, his love, encouragement and so forth. We are here for each other. Nature is here for us. It had best be! We are a part of it, and brother, I believe we and nature are part of God. Yet, to depend full on man or nature to always suppy our needs is futile, because this world is imperfect. In fact, it would be a bit like trusting the weather to always aid us, and yet we all appropriate benefits to do with weather.
I am probably not very good at this. It is not my thing to convince anyone of anything they do not already know. Somewhere in your conscience, ~if you believe you have one; or, in your heart, ~if you accept the metaphorical concept of the heart; or down deep in your soul, ~if that makes any sense to you . . . you know certain things, and until something changes that . . . nothing I say will make much difference, at least not now.
Perhaps someday, after I am dead, gone, you may reflect, or maybe not. But, in respect to you, I must accept where you are, and honor you for being true to yourself as much as you know how to be, and appreciate your disussing this with me. I am still in a process myself, and as true to myself as I know how to be, and doing only what I know is best for me.
As I have said before, before church, before bible school, before some confusing years, I had no doubt that God was/is/will be, and have never stopped believing in Him. Why? Who knows? Am I weaker and in more need than most. I think not. I have been through a hell of a lot, and can attribute my resilence and my "what?" Optomism, tenacity, or whatever . . . to nothing else but my ACCEPTANCE of God's riches. They are not mine exclusively, nor do they belong to Christendom exclusively; they are ours. Yours and mine! I promise.
Now, I am curious. Let us talk about science. Do you fully accept the big bang theory? Also, do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. I have no intention of trying to convince on these issues, because I do not have the means to do so, even if I wished to. As for me, I find the theory of man evolving from apes a bit extreme and therefore unbelievable, but it would not shake me up if it were proven to be true. I do not believe that it has been proven, and no amount of demagoguery is going to convince me otherwise, until science has more to offer. These bodies are temporal, so .......... Ah!As for the big bang theory, it intrigues me. In fact, science intrigues me. So, is it okay if I like science and Apostle Paul too? Just kidding.
Chow for now.
I have no particular problem with the big bang theory, and love science. One of my more "scholastic" and agnostic boyfriends once took me to a three-hour lecture. His intent was admittedly to have me listen to something non-religious. I enjoyed the lecture far more than he did, which was evident when he offered to leave before it was over and I did not wish to leave. I thought it would be rude, and I was on the edge of my seat, so to speak.
Interestingly, I found nothing about the lecture (scientific in nature, with reference to the "big bang" theory), that would dispel my convictions.
None of us really know. Here is what I believe, put as simply as I can: I believe I was before I came to this earth, and that I will be . . . when I leave this mortal body behind. I do not take the entire Bible literally; you were correct about that. There are some errors; you are correct about that. I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that we are also God's sons, and I am correct about that. Kind of kidding you. Well gosh, I just may be more correct than you think!
You wrote: "people who rely on god need to feel safe and need to feel that there is always someone watching over them"
And you do not? Is this what you are saying. Please do not tell me that you never want a hug, or some kind of reassurance. We are all ministers, whether we want to be or not. We have the option of wasting or improving this earth and to aid or hinder one another. For one to ever think that we can live a life without affecting others, would be moronic, as you, of course, realize as much I do. Therefore, it is through us that God sends his messages, his love, encouragement and so forth. We are here for each other. Nature is here for us. It had best be! We are a part of it, and brother, I believe we and nature are part of God. Yet, to depend full on man or nature to always suppy our needs is futile, because this world is imperfect. In fact, it would be a bit like trusting the weather to always aid us, and yet we all appropriate benefits to do with weather.
I am probably not very good at this. It is not my thing to convince anyone of anything they do not already know. Somewhere in your conscience, ~if you believe you have one; or, in your heart, ~if you accept the metaphorical concept of the heart; or down deep in your soul, ~if that makes any sense to you . . . you know certain things, and until something changes that . . . nothing I say will make much difference, at least not now.
Perhaps someday, after I am dead, gone, you may reflect, or maybe not. But, in respect to you, I must accept where you are, and honor you for being true to yourself as much as you know how to be, and appreciate your disussing this with me. I am still in a process myself, and as true to myself as I know how to be, and doing only what I know is best for me.
As I have said before, before church, before bible school, before some confusing years, I had no doubt that God was/is/will be, and have never stopped believing in Him. Why? Who knows? Am I weaker and in more need than most. I think not. I have been through a hell of a lot, and can attribute my resilence and my "what?" Optomism, tenacity, or whatever . . . to nothing else but my ACCEPTANCE of God's riches. They are not mine exclusively, nor do they belong to Christendom exclusively; they are ours. Yours and mine! I promise.
Now, I am curious. Let us talk about science. Do you fully accept the big bang theory? Also, do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. I have no intention of trying to convince on these issues, because I do not have the means to do so, even if I wished to. As for me, I find the theory of man evolving from apes a bit extreme and therefore unbelievable, but it would not shake me up if it were proven to be true. I do not believe that it has been proven, and no amount of demagoguery is going to convince me otherwise, until science has more to offer. These bodies are temporal, so .......... Ah!As for the big bang theory, it intrigues me. In fact, science intrigues me. So, is it okay if I like science and Apostle Paul too? Just kidding.
Chow for now.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Q25: Well, I suppose there have been days that I felt older than the universe itself.
Methinks you are making fun of me, but that is okay. I enjoy a good sense of humor.
But in all fairness, I can understand how that might sound a bit presumptuous; yet, I have to leave it there. My mama and daddy did not create me, they simply donated what nature had given them. Nothing is original, so hmm.
Methinks you are making fun of me, but that is okay. I enjoy a good sense of humor.
But in all fairness, I can understand how that might sound a bit presumptuous; yet, I have to leave it there. My mama and daddy did not create me, they simply donated what nature had given them. Nothing is original, so hmm.
Ahh but I never said that I didn't. I just find my sercurity and safety somewhere else other than the bible. It seems to me that you neither know why or really care why you believe in God, you just simply do. Well again that is your choice and my choice is to believe there is no god. LoL, may I just say you are one of the first people I have talked to on these forums who didn't instantaneously begin cusing, abusing or ridiculing me for disagreeing with their ideas? It's amazing that there is still 1 or 2 people here who are still civilized enough to hold a relatively intelligent conversation.
Now anyone care to go back to topic? or should I just accept that fact that free will DOES infact cancel out the idea of god since no one has yet to give me a valid contradiction?
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Votorx: Of course, I know why I believe in God, but that is not on topic, is it? Notwithstanding, with a topic that has to do with free will and God, I cannot agree that we were so far off topic.
I must say again, however, that we do not have absolute freewill. Our supposed free will is with limitations, physical, mental, language, interruptions by external forces, including nature and war. How can any reasonable person think that one can discuss one aspect of something without built-in footnotes, especially with such a diverse group of commentators?
Your kind comments are appreciated. I have been kidded about being ...shall I sum it up with "nice" many times, but they give me too much credit. I can be a real pill at times if I do not watch it! Yep. ............pmt
I must say again, however, that we do not have absolute freewill. Our supposed free will is with limitations, physical, mental, language, interruptions by external forces, including nature and war. How can any reasonable person think that one can discuss one aspect of something without built-in footnotes, especially with such a diverse group of commentators?
Your kind comments are appreciated. I have been kidded about being ...shall I sum it up with "nice" many times, but they give me too much credit. I can be a real pill at times if I do not watch it! Yep. ............pmt