Free will cancels out the idea of god

[P. M. Thorne]

Go Paula! Basically, we agree on not much of anything Votorx. What makes you think you are the one to decide what we believe. I am with you Paula, for whatever that is worth. Now, I have to go make a choc. cake. Yummy! pmt

 

[Paula]

Votorx you have twisted my words to suit your meaning. I am trying to remain respectful towards you and I would like you to do the same towards me.

I am not certain why it is that Americans and Christians are the only groups left against whom it is acceptable to exhibit prejudice, rudeness and malice, but the atheists in this forum remind me of an empty vessel when the wind blows against it. It always makes the most raucous sounds but is, in the end, still empty.

Incidentally, for those who have clamied otherwise, Christianity has grown from 1 billion to 2 billion persons since 1985 and Islam has grown from 700 million to 1.2 billion in the same time period. The countries with the highest rate of religious belief and active practice are India (Hindu), Indonesia(Muslim), Lebanon (Muslim and Christian), Mexico (Christian) and the US (Christian), all countries where one is free to practice or not practice a religion and in the case of India and the US, the two countries which provide the bulk of the world's scientific research.

I have to say, I have never seen such an angry and crass mob as the atheists on this board. I will be praying for all of you.

 

[P. M. Thorne]

I do not mean to intrude, but you get my vote again, Paula, and I am someone that likes just about everybody, but I do understand such disrespect for another's point of view. I have known many atheists, agnostics and so forth, and maybe it is because we do not see or know each other, -something like the hostility of drivers. They say things and call names that would never happen with folks you know and see every day.
It is not a good thing. I think some people are rather stupid too, but I am wise enough to know that it is not a good thing to say so. I can find that I am wrong. Perhaps some folks just cannot feel safe considering they could be wrong. I do not know. Sometimes conversations seem meaningful, and then they slip right back into a sort of "I despise anyone stupid enough to believe in God, and everything I say will make this clear." Why? As I do not know the answer to my question, I carry no hard feelings, but it is just too bad, like scholastic quagmire, or not???

 

[Votorx]

I fail to see how I was being disrespectful. Or do you just consider it rude when someone disagrees with you Paula?

Votorx you have twisted my words to suit your meaning.

I am only pointing out that your replies contradict the bible, that is all.

What makes you think you are the one to decide what we believe

You can believe what you want, I am simply explaining how god cannot exist if we have free will.

 

[Vienna]

How can free will cancel out the idea of god - no one knows god well enough to make this claim. All anyone knows about god is from some books, Wow! - Big Deal!

What if god does exist and is nothing like these books describe?

No one can make any claims, only assumptions.

 

[Votorx]

If it's just stupid books then why was it created from god's influence? Why do people take it so seriously? Why do people believe in this stupid book? You are saying that there is no reason to believe in the bible. Take Vienna's view and abolish Christianity since it's just a book.

 

[mario]

Do you think that god, himself, has free will? Like if he is all-knowing and therefore knows what will happen in the future...does he also know what he is going to do in the future as well? For example, when he finally decides to make a special guest appearance by sending jesus back to earth in the 2nd coming (as foretold in revelations) does he already know exactly what day he will be doing that? Or hasn't he decided yet. Can he ever change his mind without first knowing what he will change his mind to? If he "knows all" then he should know exactly what he will be thinking or doing at any given second too. Man! It's weird enuff to know what the universe will be doing at any given time but when it also involves yourself...well that's just freaky!

 

[Vienna]

If it's just stupid books then why was it created from god's influence? Why do people take it so seriously? Why do people believe in this stupid book? You are saying that there is no reason to believe in the bible. Take Vienna's view and abolish Christianity since it's just a book.

No - I am saying there is no reason for ME to believe in the bible.

Votorx, where do I say abolish christianity?

 

[Jenyar]

No one can make any claims, only assumptions.

Is that a claim or an assumption?

No - I am saying there is no reason for ME to believe in the bible.

If you propose that the basis of your decision is reason, logic and evidence, and not just a subjective personal choice, then you are in effect saying that everybody else who have the same faculties and information at their disposal have no reason to believe the Bible either. That implies two things: everybody who believes in the Bible are unreasonable, or they made their decision on premises that you have rejected.

 

[Votorx]

Votorx, where do I say abolish christianity?

Not once did I say that you said to abolish christianity, I simply proposed that we should since according to you, there is no reason to follow such a stupid book.

Like if he is all-knowing and therefore knows what will happen in the future...does he also know what he is going to do in the future as well?

If he knows what he's going to do in the future then he knows how to alter it to his desire.

 

[mario]

>>If he knows what he's going to do in the future then he knows how to alter it to his desire.<<

But then he would see that in the future as well...the alterations that he would be doing. And if he still wasn't happy with the alterations then he could change them too. But of course he would know of that too since he can also see those changes to the changes in the future as well.

huh?

nevermind

 

[Jenyar]

You see knowledge as a static thing - bound to time. That's our limitation, not God's. The problems you have with it is because you apply our limitations (as finite beings) to God (who is an infinte being).

It's only when God applied his knowledge to our finite lives that it becomes "static". It manifests in a prophecy, a law, or something similar. But as the prophecy is fulfilled, the law broken, and the circumstances change, we become aware that we need God's constant guidance. His words always remain true, but it unlocks different reactions in us over time. The final "key" was Christ, who made everything subject to Him.

All our knowledge ends with God, but that doesn't mean all God's knowledge ends with us.

 

[P. M. Thorne]

First, I reply to Vienna's statement:
"All anyone knows about god is from some books, Wow! - Big Deal!"

Nay! This is incorrect. Never have I read a more powerful statement of faith than what I shall paraphrase, if you will forgive my limited time this day, which is from the gentle philosopher, Spinoza, whom much Christianity has tried to doom as atheistic and off limits for their converts. He said something like this: "If all the bibles in the world were burned or otherwise destroyed, if all paper and ink or other ways of recording were taken from us, we would still have the Word of God. What a statement. Let me say that again: What a true statement that is!

It was only in the past few years that I came to realize how bigger the Almighty God is than man's thoughts. We carry our bibles and with superstitious dedication we cling to every word. Then there are those who, because of one prejudice or another, with to give it credence whatsoever, but spend much of their time ranting about some supposed lack of any validity to its words and even denying that the writer's existed. I ask you, do you really believe that the Creator is confined to man's words? Because, that would be the only way to destroy Him with destroying or otherwise disallowing man's words about Him. And to you who believe, to whatever extent, do you think that He is limited to the modern Christian concept. He is quoted as having said "other sheep have I," and other statements.

Going with saying the universe can work for us, works for me, because I know who created the universe, and I believe, dear people, that it has all been done. All the good that comes to me, comes with some kind of harmony with the universe, I think. When I am out of sorts, it is not God that has forsaken me, because, He already did it. It is simply a loose connection, or something like that. I can tell when I am focusing and working from within, and when I have scattered energy that is serving no one well.

It is up to us to make things better. We have the power, the knowledge, the ability to love, to nurture, to fix. We will make the difference, -nothing else.
One at a time, dedicated to his purpose; one at a time, in tune with the creative forces that heal and lift.

If you think this is a crock, sobeit. I cannot make you believe anything, but I tell you, we give entirely too much energy to what is wrong with this and that and the other thing, and not nearly enough to what works! Our free will? The most free we can be is to be in God's will. When His will becomes our desire . . . for this earth, for us, we will begin to understand what harmony really is.

Love you for sure. Pmt

 

[P. M. Thorne]

TO JENYAR. You wrote: "All our knowledge ends with God, but that doesn't mean all God's knowledge ends with us."

That is really a good statement. Exciting, is it not? When we begin to realize that there is a purpose to things, and that we can nurture this earth instead of destroying it, we do see, in the dimness of reality, that somewhere ahead lies the answers we only dream of.. Good statement. Thank you. ....pmt

 

[rainbow__princess_4]

If it's just stupid books then why was it created from god's influence? Why do people take it so seriously? Why do people believe in this stupid book? You are saying that there is no reason to believe in the bible. Take Vienna's view and abolish Christianity since it's just a book.

Yeah but obviously, for the sake of argument about free will, we just FOR NOW HAVE to assume that this Christian God crap is real, so that we can make the point.

 

[Votorx]

Yeah but obviously, for the sake of argument about free will, we just FOR NOW HAVE to assume that this Christian God crap is real, so that we can make the point.

What are you talking about?

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Votorx asks a good question, what are you talking about? What point are you attempting. A valid point is always welcome here, I think.

 

[Nebula]

nebuchazzwhatever;

"Not by a long shot. Most events described in the bible have shown to be historically correct. Many wars described in the bible really happened, many kings talked about existed, all the disciples and Jesus were real people, this has been proven."

A link or something would be nice.

 

[Votorx]

All our knowledge ends with God, but that doesn't mean all God's knowledge ends with us."

Which is exactly what I'm trying point out. If God knows all then he must know our future. By know our future promotes the idea of predestination. Predestination means absolutely no free will. Without free will we are contradicting the bible once again.

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Yo! Votorx: Umm. Perhaps if you do not try to make predestination an absolute, like we have choices within perimeters. We cannot fly, but we can chose whether to lie down, stand, sit, walk, or run, Those are numerous choices. I too, (assuming that someone else does), tend to give predestination a place in my theories.

Cheers! pmt