P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
ATHEROY: I tend to agree that "absolute free will" if anything, is an illusion. Even when we have choices those choices have limitations, some exterior and some innate.
PMT
PMT
Free will cancels out the idea of god
- Thread starter Votorx
- Start date
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
GRECO: I will respond. Why should we not? We institutionalize the mentally ill, and so far as I am concerned, we would be better off to treat criminals in similar manner. Then I must add that to say we have no free will, gives a very inadequate impression.
PMT
PMT
P.M.Thorne:
I like your idea of trying to think like God, and to try and imagine impossibilities becoming possible, to imagine what it is like to know the unknown. where time is irrevelant, creating life where and when you want, create another universe in another dimension, and to know absolutely everything - just imagine, where anything is possible.
When mankind can understand how the universe works and why, we will have reached the tip of the iceberg in knowing who or what God really is. I doubt very much if this will ever happen, but to keep our minds open to all possibilities at least points us in the right direction.
However - I honestly believe that mankind will die before finding the answers; just like the goldfish, but I sincerely hope I am wrong.
I like your idea of trying to think like God, and to try and imagine impossibilities becoming possible, to imagine what it is like to know the unknown. where time is irrevelant, creating life where and when you want, create another universe in another dimension, and to know absolutely everything - just imagine, where anything is possible.
When mankind can understand how the universe works and why, we will have reached the tip of the iceberg in knowing who or what God really is. I doubt very much if this will ever happen, but to keep our minds open to all possibilities at least points us in the right direction.
However - I honestly believe that mankind will die before finding the answers; just like the goldfish, but I sincerely hope I am wrong.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Vienna: Not whether you are male or female, but you are sensitive. At first, I was not sure what you were saying, after just reading that bit before your post, which about criminals. Boy, we get around on these threads, huh?
Mainly what I was saying was more "to keep an open mind," rather than giving oneself to imagination. Folks ask me a lot of question, for two reasons, I think. One, I am opinionated, and two, I will answer as honestly as I know how, regardless of where it puts me in the light of the inquirer's intelligence. When people ask me what I think is like, I reply that I do not have the foggiest, nor do I really care. I sure do believe in an almighty power, that I call God. However, I am a long way from having the mind of God, and I agree with you on that. Not in this life, but I will not be perfect in this life either, but that is my goal. I believe in aiming high. Of course, there are unknowns, but I believe...truly believe, with everything that is in me, "now, through a glass darkly, but then face to face, now in part but then I will know even as I am known." I had to paraphrase a bit. That is good enough for me. I seem to know enough to keep me busy.
Thank you for your comments. Interesting response, Vienna.
Mainly what I was saying was more "to keep an open mind," rather than giving oneself to imagination. Folks ask me a lot of question, for two reasons, I think. One, I am opinionated, and two, I will answer as honestly as I know how, regardless of where it puts me in the light of the inquirer's intelligence. When people ask me what I think is like, I reply that I do not have the foggiest, nor do I really care. I sure do believe in an almighty power, that I call God. However, I am a long way from having the mind of God, and I agree with you on that. Not in this life, but I will not be perfect in this life either, but that is my goal. I believe in aiming high.
Of course, there are unknowns, but I believe...truly believe, with everything that is in me, "now, through a glass darkly, but then face to face, now in part but then I will know even as I am known." I had to paraphrase a bit. That is good enough for me. I seem to know enough to keep me busy. Thank you for your comments. Interesting response, Vienna.
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
POSTED BY GRECO: "To lump all criminals as sick is un-warranted. Man must take responcibility for his actions or else he's an automaton. I'm writting this post out free will and no-one or anything is making me do it."
I agree, and I did not, and, of course, we must take responsibility for our actions, but I have dealt with people who seem to be in trouble most of the time enough to know that their thinking patterns perpetuate their behavior. It does not take a genius to know this. When one has never taken responsibility of one's actions, and suddenly someone says, "You now will," they see it not as "facing the music," but as being misunderstood. I will say no more at this time. Perhaps you have further thoughts on the matter, now that I have shed further light on my previous comment.
Thank you for letting me know that I was leaving an inadequate impression. >> pmt
I agree, and I did not, and, of course, we must take responsibility for our actions, but I have dealt with people who seem to be in trouble most of the time enough to know that their thinking patterns perpetuate their behavior. It does not take a genius to know this. When one has never taken responsibility of one's actions, and suddenly someone says, "You now will," they see it not as "facing the music," but as being misunderstood. I will say no more at this time. Perhaps you have further thoughts on the matter, now that I have shed further light on my previous comment.
Thank you for letting me know that I was leaving an inadequate impression. >> pmt
Nebuch...,
Can you quote any evidence that proves Jesus actually existed?
Kat
No they haven’t.
Agreed, and many places described in the bible actually existed and many still exist. But then many good fiction novels describe places and events around which to weave their stories.
There is no historical evidence for any of these alleged people, least of all Jesus. The stories that surround these characters were manufactured by the myth makers of those early times.
Can you quote any evidence that proves Jesus actually existed?
Kat
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Josephus mentioned Jesus in his history of the Jews, but why do I tell you, I am sure you will have an answer for that as well, right?
Votorx
But god ordered us not to eat that fruit. We would need free will to disobey his command and eat the fruit in the first place.
But adam (not us) ate the fruit not realising that there were ramifications to his actions. Only after he ate the fruit was he able to realise what he'd done was wrong. The adam before the fruit does not exhibit 100% free will. For free will constitutes the ability to reason through the consequences of ones actions. God set adam up to fail.
Really...I would have sworn the bible said we do contain free will. Is this yet another subject the bible if false on (or you?)? If so, it seems like a majority of the book is false, isn't it reasonable to discard the bible as a lie by now?
It's only my interpretation. I'm putting it out there to see if anyone can poke any holes in it so I can further develop or change my interpretation.
Greco
Why should we put anybody in jail if we have no free will?
It's not 'no free will', it's limited is all. There are biological cues that we can't consciously fathom that are going on that affect our decisions. It's kind of predetermined by our subconscious in a way.
And thanks for replying again Vienna
But god ordered us not to eat that fruit. We would need free will to disobey his command and eat the fruit in the first place.
But adam (not us) ate the fruit not realising that there were ramifications to his actions. Only after he ate the fruit was he able to realise what he'd done was wrong. The adam before the fruit does not exhibit 100% free will. For free will constitutes the ability to reason through the consequences of ones actions. God set adam up to fail.
Really...I would have sworn the bible said we do contain free will. Is this yet another subject the bible if false on (or you?)? If so, it seems like a majority of the book is false, isn't it reasonable to discard the bible as a lie by now?
It's only my interpretation. I'm putting it out there to see if anyone can poke any holes in it so I can further develop or change my interpretation.
Greco
Why should we put anybody in jail if we have no free will?
It's not 'no free will', it's limited is all. There are biological cues that we can't consciously fathom that are going on that affect our decisions. It's kind of predetermined by our subconscious in a way.
And thanks for replying again Vienna
Okees...
It was my understanding that the fruit contained the ability to tell right from wrong, not free will. As someone already said, we had to have that to choose to eat the fruit.
Something that's bothered me so far is the view of the future. I think someone suggested something like this already too, but what about the future as a myriad of possibilities which God knows all of. The possibilities are set by our choices: our free will.
And we seem to assume, because we're so enlightened now, that we know enough to have the answers to this type of thing. There is one hell of a lot that we don't know. I don't think we can presume that we have the most enlightened understanding ever.
I also suggest that with the huge impact Jesus had, surely the guy must have existed in some way?
It was my understanding that the fruit contained the ability to tell right from wrong, not free will. As someone already said, we had to have that to choose to eat the fruit.
Something that's bothered me so far is the view of the future. I think someone suggested something like this already too, but what about the future as a myriad of possibilities which God knows all of. The possibilities are set by our choices: our free will.
And we seem to assume, because we're so enlightened now, that we know enough to have the answers to this type of thing. There is one hell of a lot that we don't know. I don't think we can presume that we have the most enlightened understanding ever.
I also suggest that with the huge impact Jesus had, surely the guy must have existed in some way?
He still disobeyed a direct order from his supreme being which would have resulted from free will. There is no 10% free will or 50% free will. If you have free will then you have it all the way.
Really? I would have sworn that was called rationalizing. I would have sworn that free will was the ability to make independant choices as well...hmm...
1. The judical system still believes we have free will therefore we hold full responsiblity for our actions.
2. Even if there was no free will it doesn't excuse that person from being a danger to the rest of society.
Ofcourse they do, otherwise there'll be anarchy.
If there is no free will what would determine what action would we make? Free will to me is a function of higher intelligence, if I'm faced with a choise of options, I would try to think what is the best choise for me and then take the appropriate action.
As you examine the lower strata of life the less the intelligence the less the exercise of free will. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think that a blade of grass would exercise free will on what spot it's going to grow although somebody is going to argue differently.
Free will not only allows you to make choises that improve your survival but also what is good for the society you live in. In Adams case the poor man dint have a chance, we simply dont know what program God used to boot him up and what applications were installed. Obviously the man was missing considerable code, code that would have allowed him to make a better choise considering the outcome.
Which again reflects on the programer(God), perhaps God wasnt a good programer.
But a blade of glass doesn't have free will. Just because you have less intelligence than someone else doesn't necessarily mean they have less free will. They can still tell the difference between right and wrong. Adam was a perfectly obedient being to god untill god gave him free will, along with this free will came disobediance, and with this disobediance came the eating of the apple, which led to what we see today.
P.M.Thorne,
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html
A quote from the article -
“Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the passage is a forgery.”
Kat
Absolutely. The writings that are claimed to be from Josephus that reference Jesus have been shown to be forged. There is much on the web about this but here is just one article that you may find useful.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html
A quote from the article -
“Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the passage is a forgery.”
Kat
Votorx
He still disobeyed a direct order from his supreme being which would have resulted from free will.
But adam had no idea of what he was doing. It's all good and well to be told not to do something but if it doesn't mean anything to you how can you be blamed for your actions?
There is no 10% free will or 50% free will. If you have free will then you have it all the way.
I have to disagree. Would you say you have complete free will? Because you don't. Like I said earlier in this thread; there are biological mechanisms which manipulate our conscious decisions through our subconscious. Your concept of free will would exclude such biological mechanisms so I'm going to ask you to rethink your perception of what free will we actually exhibit, in parts or in totality.
Really? I would have sworn that was called rationalizing.
It is rationalising; but to me rationalising is an important part of free will. That is my understanding of free will anyway. What is the use of making choices or decisions when you don't understand the ramifications? It's like putting a lolly in a 3 year olds mouth and telling them not to suck. Do they realise that by sucking on the lolly they damn the entire human race to the prospect of hell? No. Adam and eve were no better off.
I would have sworn that free will was the ability to make independant choices as well...hmm...
Whatever, we can agree to disagree here. I'm not going to be smart and try to beat you with definitions when clearly our ideas on free will differ.
He still disobeyed a direct order from his supreme being which would have resulted from free will.
But adam had no idea of what he was doing. It's all good and well to be told not to do something but if it doesn't mean anything to you how can you be blamed for your actions?
There is no 10% free will or 50% free will. If you have free will then you have it all the way.
I have to disagree. Would you say you have complete free will? Because you don't. Like I said earlier in this thread; there are biological mechanisms which manipulate our conscious decisions through our subconscious. Your concept of free will would exclude such biological mechanisms so I'm going to ask you to rethink your perception of what free will we actually exhibit, in parts or in totality.
Really? I would have sworn that was called rationalizing.
It is rationalising; but to me rationalising is an important part of free will. That is my understanding of free will anyway. What is the use of making choices or decisions when you don't understand the ramifications? It's like putting a lolly in a 3 year olds mouth and telling them not to suck. Do they realise that by sucking on the lolly they damn the entire human race to the prospect of hell? No. Adam and eve were no better off.
I would have sworn that free will was the ability to make independant choices as well...hmm...
Whatever, we can agree to disagree here. I'm not going to be smart and try to beat you with definitions when clearly our ideas on free will differ.
Nebuchadnezzaar
Registered Senior Member
Katazia said:
Jesus is mentioned in non-christian writings
Josephus the Jewish historian born AD 37, mentioned Jesus in his writings:-
(3)[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day
Taken from: Flavius Josephus. The Works of Flavius Josephus.
and
First Proof of Jesus Found?
By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News
Oct. 21 — The first archaeological evidence of Jesus' existence has come to light, literally written in stone, according to one of the top world experts in deciphering ancient Near East inscriptions.
"Amazing as it may sound, a limestone bone box, called an ossuary, has surfaced in Israel that may once have contained the bones of James, the brother of Jesus," André Lemaire, professor of Hebrew and Aramaic philology and epigraphy at the Sorbonne University in Paris, wrote in the upcoming issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.
"We know this because an extraordinary inscription incised on one side of the ossuary reads in clear Aramaic letters: 'James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus,'" he wrote.
"If its authenticity is proven beyond doubt, this will be an outstanding discovery in modern scholarship," Paul Shalom, Professor of Jewish History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, told Discovery News.
Until now, the most significant finds related to New Testament figures have been the ossuary of Caiaphas, the high priest who handed Jesus over the Romans for crucifixion, and a dedication tablet on a monument. It mentions Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea who passed the death sentence against Jesus.
and
CAN WE PROVE JESUS WAS A REAL PERSON?
by
Eric Lyons, M.Min.
Even though the New Testament proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus actually lived, it is by no means the only historical evidence available. Around the year A.D. 94, a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus mentioned Jesus’ name twice in his book, Antiquities of the Jews. In section 18 of that work, Josephus wrote: “And there arose about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure” (emp. added). Then, in section 20, Josephus documented how a man named Ananus brought before the Sanhedrin “a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others” (emp. added).
About 20 years later, Tacitus, a Roman historian, wrote a book surveying the history of Rome. In it he described how Nero (the Roman emperor) “punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called).” He went on to write that “their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus” (Annals 15:44, emp. added). Even though Tacitus, Josephus, and other historians from the first and second centuries A.D. were not followers of Christ, they did have something to say about Him—and they even verified that Jesus was a real person Who was so famous that He even attracted the attention of the Roman emperor himself!
Another obvious reason to believe that Jesus was a real person is because our entire dating method is based upon His existence. The letters “B.C.” stand for “before Christ,” and the letters “A.D.” (standing for Anno Domini) mean “in the year of the Lord.” So when a history teacher speaks of Alexander the Great ruling much of the world in 330 B.C., he or she is admitting that Alexander lived about 330 years before Jesus was born.
I like the last reading best of all.
If you don't believe that Christ existed, what year is it? (BC AD and all of that nonsense)
P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Katazia
Absolutely. The writings that are claimed to be from Josephus that reference Jesus have been shown to be forged. There is much on the web about this but here is just one article that you may find useful.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html
A quote from the article -
“Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the passage is a forgery.”
Kat
.........And, just why would I believe that? Folks believe what they want to believe. With all the evidence that Christ lived, this nonsense has been spouted by scholastic eager beaver for more years than I have been on this earth. How do I know you are real. What proof will you leave that you lived; your birth certificate? What if it was forged? You like to read? Try "Rays of Messiah Glory, Christ in the Old Testament," by David Baron. What is your agenda that you feel such an urge to disprove such an historical figure that has affected so many lives, and had such an effect on this world? Do you feel particularly informed? Well, I do not thing so. You read those web sites if you like, this is nothing new to me. There is a crop every year of zealots who would cast doubt and do away with any kind of belief in God if they could.
I do not attend church, but I know God is, but you are not interested in a legitimate arguement. You just want to keep things stirred, and that is okay, go for it. There are others who have not been hearing this stuff as long as I have. There was a time when I would have taken you on, but see, I have learned, there is no end to it. How could I expect one from young folks who are not sure whether anything exists unless they perceive it? / My best to you. I have nothing against you; it is just the same old tired words and accusations that I have heard over and over and over again.
Okay? .........pmt
Absolutely. The writings that are claimed to be from Josephus that reference Jesus have been shown to be forged. There is much on the web about this but here is just one article that you may find useful.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html
A quote from the article -
“Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the passage is a forgery.”
Kat
.........And, just why would I believe that? Folks believe what they want to believe. With all the evidence that Christ lived, this nonsense has been spouted by scholastic eager beaver for more years than I have been on this earth. How do I know you are real. What proof will you leave that you lived; your birth certificate? What if it was forged? You like to read? Try "Rays of Messiah Glory, Christ in the Old Testament," by David Baron. What is your agenda that you feel such an urge to disprove such an historical figure that has affected so many lives, and had such an effect on this world? Do you feel particularly informed? Well, I do not thing so. You read those web sites if you like, this is nothing new to me. There is a crop every year of zealots who would cast doubt and do away with any kind of belief in God if they could.
I do not attend church, but I know God is, but you are not interested in a legitimate arguement. You just want to keep things stirred, and that is okay, go for it. There are others who have not been hearing this stuff as long as I have. There was a time when I would have taken you on, but see, I have learned, there is no end to it. How could I expect one from young folks who are not sure whether anything exists unless they perceive it? / My best to you. I have nothing against you; it is just the same old tired words and accusations that I have heard over and over and over again.
Okay? .........pmt
Free will does not cancel out the law of gravity. Free will does not cancel out the human life span. Free will does not keep you from having cancer when you will yourself not to have it. There are endless limits on our free will. In any given situation our options are finite and will lead to a finite number of results. I believe it is this way in relation to God and free will. God knows all the possible outcomes but we are allowed to make the choices anyway since a relationship with God is meaning less if one is compelled. Living a life free of error is simple if one is never presented with an opportunity to err.