A near death experience can cause the pineal gland to produce DMT, a potent hallucinogen. The visions it stimulates do not appear to be illusory.
For the atheists
- Thread starter grover
- Start date
Oh my mistake, I didn't know in addition to actually reading it you actually heard it too. That means it must be true.
So God killed his son because people were misbehaving. Is that something like when a drunk abusive father gets druink and kills the kids new kitten because they are misbehaving?
And you know this how?
Because you don't give any reasons.
I am being honest with myself. And I honestly think what you're saying makes zero sense.
What are you basing this assertion on?
You got that right. Although, I doubt you see the irony in your comment.
No, even if Dawkins were to percieve a God, it is still not necessarily true, and he might not believe it. The human mind is volnerable to hallucinations, dreams, mass delusion, optical and auditory illusions, and other forms of incomplete and inaccurate perception.
That's not his position. One can come to some conclusions about the probability of certain myths. There is the psychological phenomenon of superstition caused by selective attention. There is the creative and explanatory power of myth, however false. There's the entertainment value of stories, and the power of stories to continue cultural values into the next generation. All these contribute to the well-supported notion that religious mythology is artificial.
Well as someone that has had a NDE (as defined by Greyson's NDE scale)I can say that I am skeptical in regards to NDE being defined as a religious experience or confirmation of an after life. I am a better person because I appreciate the fact that so many people worked so hard to save my life and that I am happy not to be dead, pretty simple to understand. I did not find it convincing enough to make me believe in an after life or make me more religious actually it was a defining moment that allowed me to remove thoughts of an after life firmly from my life, which I might add makes living much easier and better in my opinion.
Here is an interesting study published in Neurology, April 11, 2006; 66:1003-1009.
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/7/1003
"Suppression of an activated locus ceruleus could be central to an arousal system predisposed to REM intrusion and NDE."
grover,
There are sites with evidences for existence of God, abound on the internet, which gives reasons outside of scripture (i assume by magic book you mean scripture), why don't you give it a whirl?
What I know doesn't enter in to it, it is a matter of belief.
You believe God does not exist based on the one and only fact that you cannot see God.
No they can't, they have to be told that they are.
I know that from my perspective, but I don't believe my perspective is all there is.
Can you quit with the accusations, there's a good fellow.
So what if people think it is a necessary prerequisite, how is that thought dangerous, especially as such a war seems to be looming, with or without religion?
No you're not. You're saying that people base their belief in God because it says so in the scripture, not for any other reason. I would like you to simply back up your statement.
Scriptoral injunctions please.
The only rational argument you can provide for your belief that God does not exist, is I cannot see him with my own eyes therefore he does not exist.
But you are irrational in that you use this as a reason to believe that God does not exist.
Because it isn't just "thought", it is a delusion.
Then based on your simple logic, you are defending the same act without the thought process.
No you didn't.
Jan.
There are sites with evidences for existence of God, abound on the internet, which gives reasons outside of scripture (i assume by magic book you mean scripture), why don't you give it a whirl?
What I know doesn't enter in to it, it is a matter of belief.
You believe God does not exist based on the one and only fact that you cannot see God.
No they can't, they have to be told that they are.
I know that from my perspective, but I don't believe my perspective is all there is.
Can you quit with the accusations, there's a good fellow.
So what if people think it is a necessary prerequisite, how is that thought dangerous, especially as such a war seems to be looming, with or without religion?
No you're not. You're saying that people base their belief in God because it says so in the scripture, not for any other reason. I would like you to simply back up your statement.
Scriptoral injunctions please.
The only rational argument you can provide for your belief that God does not exist, is I cannot see him with my own eyes therefore he does not exist.
But you are irrational in that you use this as a reason to believe that God does not exist.
Because it isn't just "thought", it is a delusion.
Then based on your simple logic, you are defending the same act without the thought process.
No you didn't.
Jan.
is there really, amazing. Funny how nobody has ever seen any evidence, though.
if you have evidences for proof of god/gods we would all be interested in seeing them and I mean we as in the whole darn planet.
I and randi would give you a millions dollars each if you can prove god. http://www.randi.org/research/index.htm so put your money where your mouth is, thank you kindly.
No.
Matter of belief. So this means that by believing in it it's true? Thats called magical thinking.
No, actually children have to be taught they are "true." A child that has not been forcibly indoctrinated will recognise them for what they are: make-believe.
So from youe perspective living in a whale's stomach is impossible but there might be some other perspective where this is literally possible?
No, I can't. I think people that hold literal beliefs pertaining to scripture are dangerously out of touch with reality and I'm done keeping my mouth shut about it. If you believe something crazy, you should be called on it. You anly have a right to deny reality as long as your delusion doens't impinge on me.Can you quit with the accusations, there's a good fellow.
How can you be that dense? They think World War III is a good thing. They're fucking nuts.
Do you really not get it? If so you are being deliberately dense.
The point is that peoples "religous beliefs" are making a rational avoidance much less likely. I can imagine reasoning with an enemy, I can't imagine reasoning with someone that thinks World War III is a good thing, a thing that needs to happen so that their superhero can come and save the day. It's disgusting.
You are really desne. I have argued in numerous threads that God is believable. What I am arguing is that fundamentalists actually have very bad reasons for believing the things they do. This total abandonment of rationality has led them to believe totally unbelievable things with absolute certainty. They have a form of socially sanctioned insanity and its time for the light of reason to shine on this insanity. Don't worry though, any God that actually exists can also be rationally defined. By no means do I think we will be living in a meaningless void once these insane notions are done away with anymore than you find living without Zeus makes the univrse meaningless.
I do believe in God. I just don't think it is a person. I don't think hes a person thats going to fly down form the sky to save the day once the precondition of Apocalypse has been met.
No Jan, their "thought" process allowed them to commit an atrocity. You are defending their "thought" process not me. I am saying if a crazy person moves in next door to me and has a Superior Being that they take orders from and that Superior Being is ordering them to kill I'm not going to act all surprised when that person does kill - because they've been telling me all along. I'm also not going to make excuses for that person and say "well, he did have a magic book." No, I'm going to call a spade a spade - he's crazy and dangerous. And people that defend him are crazy and dangerous.
Correct. He didn't say he believes Christianity's god or Islam's god could exist - matter of fact he does bring up mythological connections in christianity. He says that the possibility (remote as it might be) exists that some sort of god-like being might be around, and he's not in possession of all the knowledge in the universe to say definitively whether any such being exists...
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This is classic. I'm sure I'd be more inclined to belief if I hear the same words (that I can read myself) regurgitated...
The problem here is that you blindly accept this as history rather than a story.
How generous!
Convenient. So if your god had the ability to create one human perfectly (as defined by himself), why not 6.6 billion of us?
As created by him (according to christianity)...
...that he created himself, to put a fallen angel to rule. A condemnation (for sins) that he decreed himself.
Worship or burn. Lovely.
Sigh...Jan do you see what we mean yet?
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Enterprise-D,
And how does he know this?
Is it possible that God is beyond the scope of scientifiic analysis, and can ony be percieved via developed human consciousness?
If it is possible, why demand ONLY scientific evidence as proof?
So what? That is his opinion, for which he has nothing but the simple logic that if he cannot see God, then God does not exist. Do you think that is sufficient to stop all belief in God?
set up a strawman God
prove that he cannot exist because he cannot seen with the eyes
then say lets sit and wait until we can see him
Hmmm....tricky.
Yeah if the questions are known in advance, but straight of the bat, with someone with an incling of intelligence, he's all over the place. The reason being, he doesn't know what he is
talking about, outside of i cannot see God with my own eyes therefore God doesn't exist.
He gets caned everytime.
It has no power and awe anymore. Who controls, the banks, the media, education, food, medicines, these are the people who have power.
The day of religious institutional rule is over.
I cannot comment on the Pope, as he/they never actually talk about God in any depth.
So what?
On the contrary I understand why people don't laud and join me, its really quite simple. Is that the length and breadth of your reason? Its quite puny, really, isn't it?
Why do you think Dawkins uses the term "sky fairy" instead of the term "God".
The most insufficient what?
He believes that God doesn't exist because he cannot see him with his eyes, and if one is going to worship, then worship that which you can see with your own eyes. That can be his only premise.
Since people start using its name to justify their fanatical ideas, namely telling people what they should and should not think.
There's nothing wrong with science, it is a great tool to gain understanding of the material world.
That doesn't mean "religion" is the reason.
The reason is obvious, there seems to be an attack of muslim countries and peoples, ie. iraq, palastine, afganistan, and people are cheesed of.
If it was as you say, then the muslims in my town would be murdering left right and center, but they're not.
So there behaviour isn't acceptable because it is, as you put it, spured
on by religion?
Why don't the muslims who live on the next street to me, murder the infidels in my area, God knows there are plenty of us. I have never heard of one incident where a muslim has even had a mild argument with an infidel, based on religion. So what is the logical basis of your claim?
*bombs dropping overhead*
"hang on honey I'm just going to call the police and have them put a stop to this infidel bombing"
I would do, but as a result of idiotic youth behaviour, houses in neighbourhoods where people are civilised, have shot up in price, for that reason,
and houses in my neighbourhood, cannot be sold for love nor money.
This is a joke...isn't it.
What does religion currently enjoy?
Why are you accusing me of wanting people to join me?
Where have I stated this, or where has any theist in this thread stated this?
You cannot challenge me, as you don't care to understand what it is I believe, outside of what you think it is. If you care to understand then still, you do not need to challenge me as the basis of my belief can be found in any scripture.
Why pussyfoot, lets go the whole hop, and accept it for what it is, a belief that God does not exist.
This cannot be stopped, have you not read your scripture?
I merely enjoy debating and discussing these issues, in between recording and mastering my songs.;
I fear the war, regardless of religion, or not.
I fear violent youths who know they cannot be touched, inflicting their violence on innocent people, spiraling because the government doesn't do anything to curb it.
I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy, what to speak of you.
I fear that the organised religion will eventually be taken over by a regime which will openly discriminate against people who believe in the one God by
accusing them of murder, and being a party to murder because of what they
belief, by placing people in mental institutions, because they believe they are deluded based on nothing but a personal preference which would have, by now, become the norm.
Jan.
And how does he know this?
Is it possible that God is beyond the scope of scientifiic analysis, and can ony be percieved via developed human consciousness?
If it is possible, why demand ONLY scientific evidence as proof?
So what? That is his opinion, for which he has nothing but the simple logic that if he cannot see God, then God does not exist. Do you think that is sufficient to stop all belief in God?
set up a strawman God
prove that he cannot exist because he cannot seen with the eyes
then say lets sit and wait until we can see him
Hmmm....tricky.
That is your opinion. The interviews always have the newscaster/interviewer challenging Dawkins with the favourite theist tactics and questions. I call that a challenge. And Dawkins readily bats 1000, or rather hits sixes (cricket
Yeah if the questions are known in advance, but straight of the bat, with someone with an incling of intelligence, he's all over the place. The reason being, he doesn't know what he is
talking about, outside of i cannot see God with my own eyes therefore God doesn't exist.
He gets caned everytime.
It has no power and awe anymore. Who controls, the banks, the media, education, food, medicines, these are the people who have power.
The day of religious institutional rule is over.
I cannot comment on the Pope, as he/they never actually talk about God in any depth.
So what?
On the contrary I understand why people don't laud and join me, its really quite simple. Is that the length and breadth of your reason? Its quite puny, really, isn't it?
Why do you think Dawkins uses the term "sky fairy" instead of the term "God".
The most insufficient what?
He believes that God doesn't exist because he cannot see him with his eyes, and if one is going to worship, then worship that which you can see with your own eyes. That can be his only premise.
Since people start using its name to justify their fanatical ideas, namely telling people what they should and should not think.
There's nothing wrong with science, it is a great tool to gain understanding of the material world.
That doesn't mean "religion" is the reason.
The reason is obvious, there seems to be an attack of muslim countries and peoples, ie. iraq, palastine, afganistan, and people are cheesed of.
If it was as you say, then the muslims in my town would be murdering left right and center, but they're not.
So there behaviour isn't acceptable because it is, as you put it, spured
on by religion?
Why don't the muslims who live on the next street to me, murder the infidels in my area, God knows there are plenty of us. I have never heard of one incident where a muslim has even had a mild argument with an infidel, based on religion. So what is the logical basis of your claim?
*bombs dropping overhead*
"hang on honey I'm just going to call the police and have them put a stop to this infidel bombing"
I would do, but as a result of idiotic youth behaviour, houses in neighbourhoods where people are civilised, have shot up in price, for that reason,
and houses in my neighbourhood, cannot be sold for love nor money.
This is a joke...isn't it.
What does religion currently enjoy?
Why are you accusing me of wanting people to join me?
Where have I stated this, or where has any theist in this thread stated this?
You cannot challenge me, as you don't care to understand what it is I believe, outside of what you think it is. If you care to understand then still, you do not need to challenge me as the basis of my belief can be found in any scripture.
Why pussyfoot, lets go the whole hop, and accept it for what it is, a belief that God does not exist.
This cannot be stopped, have you not read your scripture?
I merely enjoy debating and discussing these issues, in between recording and mastering my songs.;
I fear the war, regardless of religion, or not.
I fear violent youths who know they cannot be touched, inflicting their violence on innocent people, spiraling because the government doesn't do anything to curb it.
I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy, what to speak of you.
I fear that the organised religion will eventually be taken over by a regime which will openly discriminate against people who believe in the one God by
accusing them of murder, and being a party to murder because of what they
belief, by placing people in mental institutions, because they believe they are deluded based on nothing but a personal preference which would have, by now, become the norm.
Jan.
grover,
I don't believe my perspective is all there is, that is what I said.
Okay if you wish to keep up with the accusations and personal insults, i see no point in conversing any further. The ball is in your court.
How do you conclude that every christian believes the war is a good thing based on their belief?
And can you provide some kind of evidence which backs up this claim?
Derrrrr.....
How naive.
I'm sure you haven't been this stupid in other posts you have made.
You're taking the piss, aren't you?
I hope you are, it would be a shame to lose you this madness.
Jan.
I don't believe my perspective is all there is, that is what I said.
Okay if you wish to keep up with the accusations and personal insults, i see no point in conversing any further. The ball is in your court.
How do you conclude that every christian believes the war is a good thing based on their belief?
And can you provide some kind of evidence which backs up this claim?
Derrrrr.....
How naive.
I'm sure you haven't been this stupid in other posts you have made.
You're taking the piss, aren't you?
I hope you are, it would be a shame to lose you this madness.
Jan.
spidergoat,
So you're saying Dawkins does not give a monkeys whether God exists or not?
So God can never be believed by the so-called rational, even if he exists?
Listening to atheists, that makes a whole lot of sense.
Thanks
Jan.
So you're saying Dawkins does not give a monkeys whether God exists or not?
So God can never be believed by the so-called rational, even if he exists?
Listening to atheists, that makes a whole lot of sense.
Thanks
Jan.
You act as though personal perception of a God is some kind of proof. It is not.
But what we were specifically talking about whether a man can live in a whales stomach. You seem to think there is some perspective from which this is a literal possibility. What perspective is that?
I'm not insulting in you. I'm letting you know my opinion that I thik you hold indefensible, irrational, dangerous, crazy beliefs. I see no point in conversing any further with someone who holds totally irrational beliefs. There is no point in trying to reason with someone that is irrational.
I'm not in the mood to do intenet research. But I have seen the claim many times that Armageddon is a necessary prerequisite. I have heard evangelicals make this claim.
Irony. Do you really think the fact that what's going on in the middle east is made easier to solve by all the relgious dogma involved? The religous dogma is making a bad political situation into a completely untenable situation in which everyone is imagining that they are doing God's will. Each religion has incompatible claims. You either believe or you don't. I fou don't you are going to hell. There are even minor differences within the religion (Sunnia against Shia).
Let me get this straight, you say I'm insulting you because I say your beliefs are crazy (which they are) and then in the same post you proceed to call me naive and stupid. You are a typical theist - hypocritical to the core.
spidergoat,
This is a very interesting comment. What is proof of God?
Jan.
This is a very interesting comment. What is proof of God?
Jan.
Just a couple of things..
Incorrect, there are religious programmes on British TV. One example: Songs of Praise (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/songsofpraise/).
Thing is, programmes that could be deemed anti religious are far from being 'unchallenged'. They'll whine and piss about it all week long. How many atheists have ever made formal complaints about songs of praise?
A) Things can be heard through those plugs.
B) She was still alive, no blood had been drained from her at that time!
Try again.
Incorrect, there are religious programmes on British TV. One example: Songs of Praise (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/songsofpraise/).
Thing is, programmes that could be deemed anti religious are far from being 'unchallenged'. They'll whine and piss about it all week long. How many atheists have ever made formal complaints about songs of praise?
A) Things can be heard through those plugs.
B) She was still alive, no blood had been drained from her at that time!
Try again.