for atheists

Hi! Teg! The 'proof' is all around you! And you your self! GOD is Greater then man's imagination can conceive! He did it, and the Bible is 100% historicaly accurate!
I was not created. I was made from existing matter by an evolutionary adaptation we call reproduction. I proved the second statement to untrue. You need attack my facts. That is the only way your statement can be granted validity.
We all were created in His image and not 'slime' to monkey, monkey (anthaphoid) to man, by chance! Come on! There are far better explanations then that !
Again you misinterpreted the facts. We did not come from monkeys. We are only similar to them in heritage. Life today is not a specific representation of any set path. We are simply the next step in along chain of humanoids. At one point in the past, yes our ancestors would eventually not be seen as such, but you need only look at apes to see the similarities.
You have power in your tounge that can build up someone, or destroy him! No other animal or creator on Earth has that power! You are created just a little lower then the Angalic host! You are ,although fallen, was made in the image of GOD your Creator to the Glory of GOD, not as to just to recounstitute the ground, and be worm-food at death! But you have an immortal soul & spirit that will live forever somewhere in Heaven , where God who is 'Love' would have you! Are you know, the Hell that was prepared for the Devil and his 'fallen angels' demons, but orig. not for man, but the fall of man, you would have to chose in this life! GOD's Holy Word is a far better foundation for any sociaty to build on!
Word games are not my idea of evidence. Reputations are an abstract concept invented by humans for the purpose of discrimination between the strong and the weak. Where is this holy word of god? The bible was written by human beings. People who report to hear voices are unreliable.
 
Cris

Logic by itself is useless without facts and evidence for its premises, i.e. logic needs a knowledge base for it to operate, and science is the mechanism that provides knowledge.

For one thing, you can't have any absolute knowledge of the world science explores, because you can't justify all the premises it rests on. See http://www.sciforums.com/t5801/s/thread.html . More importantly though, you seem to fail to grasp the fact that everything science observes is logic.

Everything science has ever observed is simply logical interactions of groups of other logical interactions. Science has never observed solid matter, and most everyone these days seems to admit there is no such thing as a fundamental solid particle (there's nothing like the atoms the ancient Greeks imagined, sadly). We talk about matter being a type of energy, but all our definitions of energy involve actual or potential interaction with other energy. We have no basis for science except logic -- as we look closely at things through science, we find nothing solid and physical to grab onto, we find only logic and logical interactions.

All of science is the observation of logic. That's the only thing science is capable of, it simply strives to find logic at smaller levels that makes up the more complex logic of the larger world... or in the case of scientific study of the large world itself, it's all about determining the logic of how large bundles of logical interactions interact with each other.

Of course the brain is self-aware – the brain is you. You are trying to introduce a level of abstraction and complexity that just isn't present or necessary.

It's very simple to say you have faith in logical impossibilities, I'll give you that... religious people do it all the time, just like you. :rolleyes: The fact that self-awareness is a logical contradiction should prompt you to notice that if you want to be rational you have to provide a logically valid way around the logical contradiction. Otherwise, you're worse off than the people who simply say god makes the impossible possible... at least they're attributing miracles to something instead of leaving them floating around.

It's all extremely simple. The mind and consciousness are exceptionally simple things, they don't have physical realities that would allow them to be broken down an infinite number of times to produce the complexity the physical world has. The mind is no more and no less than everything you experience, and the consciousness is simply the perception of mind, the act of observation the source of which is itself unobservable by definition. That's not advanced mathematics or something, it's very simple.

Based on that conclusion you are saying that you are not aware, since clearly you are 'something'. That, and your argument, is clearly nonsense, right?

You're obviously confusing one use of "I" for another. The conscious "I" doesn't have to be anything on its own (or if it is something, which I tend to doubt since I'd rather keep things simple, it is with certainly an unobservable unknowable thing).

"I" in the usual sense refers to the brain, mind and consciousness as a group. They are, after all, all required in order to exist in the way we know existence. Kill the brain, and the mind disappears and the consciousness loses meaning since it has nothing to be aware of. Eliminate the mind (just theoretically, obviously it couldn't actually be eliminated without eliminating the brain), and the consciousness again loses meaning since it has nothing to be aware of, and the brain simply sits there as a collection of subatomic particles, none of which have any associated consciousness.

The consciousness part of "I" (the perspective) clearly observes something. What it observes, we call thoughts or mental activity. That's what we know -- we know we experience things, and we can stick a label on the totality of experience. From those experiences we deduce that these experiences are actually all being produced by a brain -- how we deduce that I could get into some other time, but I would say it's a logical conclusion. Thus we're left with a self that has 3 interdependent logical partitions, only one of which is a so-called physical reality (the brain).

You, like countless people for thousands of years, fail to observe the importance of the logical partitioning and so identify only with the physical you, despite the fact that the physical you isn't even the one you directly experience (as is obvious from the fact that you have to learn about it).

Considering the physical reality which you cling to as your only thing seems itself to rely entirely on logical partitioning, your inability to logically partition yourself seems ironic. :rolleyes:
 
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Since you're still confused about the idea of observation and what consciousness means:

That which you directly experience is that which you completely know, by definition. To be directly conscious of something is to know it with certainty. I know my thought with certainty -- I can't report it accurately in language, and since memory is in the brain I can't know what prior thought was with certainty, but I do directly know what my current mental experience is because by definition my it's exactly what I'm experiencing. (If you see the "knowledge" thread on the general philosophy forum, I disagree with Lehrer's claim that I can be mistaken about my thought -- all his examples are simply linguistic confusion rather than an actual mistake in perception of current thought.)

If you think you are your brain and your brain observes itself (self-aware), you must then completely know your brain, by definition. If that's the case, please help out those poor neuroscientists who think they have to study it and don't realize they already know everything about it. Please, if your brain can observe itself that's great, I'm just as eager as the neuroscientists are to share in your knowledge.



Most of the remainder of your post is nonsense since you haven't understood this basic perspective.

Oh, I fully understand it and the attraction of the simplicity of it. I grew up with that perspective until I took the time to think it through and realized that I was basing my beliefs of self on ideas that contradict logical reality. (Fortunately actual logical sense can be found not far away though, and without contradicting physical reality whatsoever.)

Stop trying to imagine yourself as some form of ethereal entity floating outside of a physical body, there is no evidence for such things.

Neither the mind nor the consciousness is an entity, nor do they float (nor do they have anywhere in which to float), nor did I ever imply any such thing.

The mind isn't a substance. :rolleyes: Simply take the definition of the word "mind" as being the entirety of all which we experience... no more, no less. There's no sense debating definitions, call it "hufdahk" instead of mind, or "brain" if you insist although that simply adds to confusion when you call logically distinct things by the same name.

Of course, we all logically partition our mind into these two main partitions:
1) Mental experiences of brain states triggered by the senses. We call these mental experiences the external, or physical, world.
2) Mental experiences of brain states not caused by the senses. This is what people call either their brain or their mind, depending on if they're a materialist or not.

Materialists (that's you, Cris ;)) dump the 2nd partition into the 1st. Idealists dump the 1st partition into the 2nd. As Bambi explained so well in another thread, you can put the partition anywhere and not be changing anything because you still have the same whole no matter how you arrange the logical partitions.

Your brain is what enables you to be self-aware.

The way you seem to have meant that is a nonsensical statement. You say your brain is self-aware, and your answer to how that's possible is that the brain causes it. Great, so things can be self aware because they cause their self to be self-aware. You sound like the people saying god causes himself.

The brain does of course (by producing thought) enable the consciousness to have something to be aware of. So if you use the holistic "I" and logically partition it into the three parts, you could make some sense by saying that the brain allows another part of you to have awareness of something.

There is no competition between logic and science. Science is applied logic. Logic has no value until it is used.

Logic can be applied by the brain coming up internal experiments. No one went out and used science to prove calculus... rather, people use calculus to explain the findings of science.

If something cannot be objectively observed or detected then it either does not exist or cannot be known to exist.

If something cannot be observed, it cannot be explained. The mind, however, can very easily be observed... it's all that is observed. It can be known to exist through that, even though it can't be independently detected through anything other than logical extrapolation from the self, saying "I have a mind and you have all the same structure which seem to cause my mind, therefore I conclude that it must produce the same thing for you as it does for me."

The existence of consciousness can be logically deduced, even if nothing about it can be known (if there's anything to know).

Let's say I show you a full 360 degree panoramic shot of some nature scene. You would look at it and state that what's in the photograph is all that exists there, since it's all that can be observed. I, on the other hand, would say that the existence of a camera can be logically deduced even though you'll never be able to observe the camera in the picture. I could never guess what kind of camera, but I'd be very certain in my belief that there's a camera (meaning device that takes pictures) there.
 
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My question:

It seems that my origional post in this thread was overlooked I asked a few questions which were never answered :)

So here is my first question to tony1 and Loone and whoever else is adament about their particular style of religion:

Main question:

Are Mormons going to hell? And if so why?
 
Yes!

tony1 only posts at weekends, usually, so you are unlikely to hear from him until then.

Loone will unlikely have any opinions on the matter, but will insist you pray to Jesus and be saved, or variations on the same theme.

But also, since your questions are pretty much off topic then there isn't much incentive for anyone to answer you.

You would do much better starting a whole new thread titled - Will Mormons go to Hell. Just a suggestion.

And welcome to sciforums.

Cris
 
Originally posted by James R

Since it appears that time came into being with the universe, it seems reasonable to say that the universe came from outside time (if it came from anywhere).

:confused: By whose observations does it "appear" like that? Besides, "came" is a time-loaded verb.

<i>Moreover, there is a problem when transitioning between no-time and time; there is nothing in between. Does that mean that even if there are gods, they are forever excluded from the universe?</i>

Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps God can delegate some part of himself to exist within time?

In which case the two parts of God are completely disconnected from each other. Moreover, God has no way of inserting part of itself into the universe. IOW, you still don't solve the problem of how anything can transition the boundary.

<i>Finally, you did admit having difficulty with defining anything at all outside of time. And I would claim that is a fundamental difficulty that arises from the contradiction of a time-bound information processor (such as yourself) trying to represent an entity that is not time bound.</i>

I agree.

Then you must also agree that all attempts to conceive of such entities are illogical. Quad erat demonstratum.

<i>By that reasoning, you cannot make any claims about any god whatsoever, including claims of existence thereof.</i>

I'm not claiming God exists. I'm claiming that the possibility of His existence is a real one.

Huh?? Claiming a "possibility" of "His" existence is the same as saying there's an X% probability that "He" exists. At the same time, claiming a possibility is the same thing as claiming it possible -- on the grounds of...?? If there are no grounds for making such a claim, then the claim is illogical. IOW you're making a nonsensical claim that there is a 0% probability that "He" exists -- and therefore it is "possible".

<i>Eternal but not the foundation of all existence...</i>

But the foundation for our universe? Surely that would be a good start?

Not for Judaism. Remember, I'm disproving God -- not a god.

<i>Though neither the phrase "always there" nor even the concept of "eternity" mesh very well with an "outside of time" postulate.</i>

I agree. I don't have the answers to the problems the concept raises. I'm simply putting it out there as a possibility to consider.

But it's really simple. Haven't I done enough yet to convince you that such concepts are a logical impossibility?
 
Bambi,

IOW you're making a nonsensical claim that there is a 0% probability that "He" exists -- and therefore it is "possible".
You mean "impossible", right?
 
Bambi,

The theory that time started along with space at the big bang follows from general relativity and our most up to date cosmological theories. The big bang theory has good observational support.

I said: <i>Perhaps God can delegate some part of himself to exist within time?</i>
You replied: <i>In which case the two parts of God are completely disconnected from each other. Moreover, God has no way of inserting part of itself into the universe.</i>

How do you reach that conclusion?

<i>Claiming a "possibility" of "His" existence is the same as saying there's an X% probability that "He" exists.</i>

I agree, of course.

<i>At the same time, claiming a possibility is the same thing as claiming it possible -- on the grounds of...??</i>

On the grounds that the possibility is not ruled out by anything we know about our universe.

<i>Remember, I'm disproving God -- not a god.</i>

I thought I conceded your point about God vs. god earlier. I'm talking god, not God (for now, at least :))

<i>Haven't I done enough yet to convince you that such concepts are a logical impossibility?</i>

I'm afraid not. Sorry.
 
*Originally posted by Bebelina
Tony, however one person perceives the other, according to their different personality set-ups( includes beliefs, prejudices, anticipations, intentions), it has still never lead to any good talking to another person in a degrading manner by using expressions that are commonly known as, and will likely be received as insulting, whatever the original description of the word is.
*

What are you talking about?

*And btw, I was under the impression that anti-christ is just one person, not any person who has a disbelief in christianity?*

An antichristian is anyone who is against Christianity.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(1 John 2:18, KJV).

*I will not limit my perspective by being open to new ones, if they are "right" or "wrong" doesn´t matter, they are no limitation, they just bring new insights.*

Right and wrong don't matter?
The problem with your plan is that your "new" insights might just be old wrong ones.

*That doesn´t mean that I agree with the purposes of the new perspectives presented, only that I´m willing to understand why, and not to judge.*

In all of this, I would assume that you would want to be "right" to the extent that you remain alive.

*Originally posted by Cris
Humor, justice, happiness, are all forms of information held as physical neural networks inside human brains.
*

Not so.
A joke that has not been told yet would still be funny once it is told.
Your idea of physical neural networks is accurate enough when considering something that exists already, but fails when considering possibilities that do not exist yet.
You seem to be equating perception with the percept.

*Originally posted by Adam
Evolution developed our brains.
*

No it didn't.
There isn't any proof of undeveloped brains in earlier "versions" of man.
Evolutionists merely assert that there are with no proof.

*Originally posted by Teg
Ego. All who do not follow your version do not have truth: pretty narrow-minded.
*

You're merely assuming that because you don't believe the truth, you can create your own version of truth and believe that.
In other circles, that would be called suffering from a delusion.

*'ll bite, you could be right, but also remember that you could be wrong. *

There is some slight possibility of that.

*On the preponderance of the evidence I would say that you don't believe anything at all.*

You'd be right if "preponderance of evidence" meant anything.
After all, the preponderance of evidence is that nobody wins the lottery.
You'd be wrong if you believe that.

*I never said that a person has no chance of winning.*

You don't when the discussion is about lotteries.
However, you do when the discussion is about God.

*All the fools on your side have the exact same set of numbers.*

The winning numbers.

*We are simply trying to prove that there is no lotto, in the metaphorical sense.*

That's even worse.
Not only are you arguing that no one wins the lottery, you are also trying to argue there is no lottery.
What preponderance of evidence would there be for that?

*Your people held onto the idea that the heavens (stars) were unchanging.*

They move.
What's unchanging about that?

*So you admit that Christians are conditioned.*

How do you get "conditioned" out of "converted?"

*Discovery by observation leads to uniform conclusions.*

Agreed.
However, I'm saying the conclusions are pretty much uniformly wrong.

*That has been the only Christian argument to come along so far.*

That was your argument restated.

*Why then is there no evidence of this flood that, to have covered the earth in fossils, must have washed over every bit of dry land.*

I can't remember seeing dry land that had no evidence of being covered in water at one point.
Mind you, I haven't covered every square inch of the Earth's surface.

*No humans have been found in specific layers as deep as dinosaurs.*

What are you talking about?
Where are these dinosaur mines that you must be talking about?
Most fossils are located within a few feet of the surface if not right on the surface.

*The fact that we can distinguish the layers in terms of type of life and specific species of dinosaurs that only appear in specific layers.*

That's just imaginary.
The layers are dated by what is found in them, and what is found in them is dated by the layers they are found in.
That's just the typical circular "scientific" logic.

*Originally posted by Cris
You have 5 senses.
*

Says who?

*The Vatican has one of the largest groups of researchers in the world dedicated to investigating claims of the supernatural. I’m sure they’d shout very loud if they ever found something concrete.*

If they said they found something concrete and supernatural at the same time, I'd say they would need to define either "concrete" or "supernatural" or both.

*You and your brain are one and the same thing. *

So when people say "hello" to you, they are actually saluting your brain?

*Science is applied logic.*

If only that were true.
It remains a distant dream.

*If something cannot be objectively observed or detected then it either does not exist or cannot be known to exist.*

Or there is something wrong with your detection method.

*logic needs a knowledge base for it to operate*

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of logic.
Logic is completely independent of any knowledge.
Any logical statement can be made using symbols for the premises and conclusions, with no underlying knowledge giving meaning to the symbols.

Eg. if a=b and b=c then a=c is an example of a logical statement that does not depend on any knowledge base whatever.

*This says that if something cannot be observed then it is supernatural – that is just more gibberish.*

Your statement is little more than gibberish, too.
It should be clear that there are unobservable things which are unobservable because they don't exist, and there are unobservable things which are unobservable because they can't be observed.

Your point is consistently that all unobservable things are unobservable because they don't exist.

*Originally posted by Bebelina
And mediums, who channels another spirit than their own through their body. My grandmother for example often speaks to her dead sister and gets information, previously not known, from her that always prove to be true.
*

I'd check up on that "always prove to be true" thing.
The main problem with that is that it is another spirit, but you don't know what spirit that is.

*Originally posted by Teg
Nothing has been created to the best of our knowledge.
*

Do you live under a bridge?
No, bad example, even bridges are created.
You must own no furniture, since furniture has been created.
It didn't just grow, you know.

*Prove it.*

The universe is here.
The other options are that it created itself, which is nonsensical, and that it was always here, in which case all of the scientific research that it is 15 billion years old is nonsense.

*Matter cannot be created, by anyone.*

Prove it.

*There was no great flood in recent history.*

Prove that.
That claim is only an artifact of the scientific method.
No one has had the time to examine every square inch of the earth's surface.

*We are simply the next step in along chain of humanoids.*

So far, the evidence for that "long chain" of humanoids is the tooth of a wild pig (Nebraska man) and a knee joint and a jawbone found a few miles apart (collectively called Lucy).

*Originally posted by Bambi
By whose observations does it "appear" like that?
*

By whose observations does the universe "appear" like anything?

*Then you must also agree that all attempts to conceive of such entities are illogical.*

OK, Ms. Spock.
Such attempts are not necessarily illogical, merely difficult.

*Claiming a "possibility" of "His" existence is the same as saying there's an X% probability that "He" exists.*

You cannot prove that X=0.
 
Tony1,

*Originally posted by Cris
Humor, justice, happiness, are all forms of information held as physical neural networks inside human brains.*

Not so.
A joke that has not been told yet would still be funny once it is told.
Your idea of physical neural networks is accurate enough when considering something that exists already, but fails when considering possibilities that do not exist yet.
You seem to be equating perception with the percept.
No that doesn’t work either.

It doesn’t matter if the joke has not been told. If the joke exists then it is held in the form of neural networks inside someone’s brain. It has a physical presence. For this joke to be perceived as a joke, then the associated concept of humor must also exist as a neural network inside the same brain.

If something does not exist yet, then what is your point? If it doesn’t exist then it doesn’t exist.

If no jokes were ever created then it is probably because the concept of humor did not exist.

We can define the existence of such concepts here as anything that is represented by neural networks inside the brains of one or more humans. If no one has developed a given concept, i.e. no such neural patterns exist; then the concept does not exist.

For example: If I could devise a machine that could detect the neural patterns in the human brain that represented the concept of humor and if the machine could also destroy those patterns, and then if I used that machine on every human on the planet – then I would have effectively removed the concept of humor. Humor would cease to exist.

For humor, or justice, to exist then the neural networks that correspond to those concepts must exist in the brain of at least one human.

Now I think what you are trying to say is that humor could exist independently of whether any human brain contained any such neural network. No it couldn’t. As I said earlier, humor is a form of information. It cannot exist until a brain creates it, it can then be communicated to others.

Consider the concept of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), from the cold ware era. Can this idea exist independently of whether human brains contain the corresponding neural patterns? No. For example in the time of the Stone Age did MAD exist. No of course not since at that time no one had any such neural patterns.

OK?

Cris
 
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Originally posted by James R

The theory that time started along with space at the big bang follows from general relativity and our most up to date cosmological theories. The big bang theory has good observational support.

Hmmm, as far as I know the Big Bang is only concerned with describing the evolution of a particular three-dimensional manifold (or, if you like, describing the shape of a particular four-dimensional sculpture.) The Big Bang has nothing to say concerning the topic of where the 3+1 dimensions come from, or whether they existed prior to the Big Bang. Spacetime is defined as a sort of matter-energy matrix hanging on the space and time axes. To my knowledge there is no theory in existence as of yet to explain the nature and origin of those axes. M-theory is a good candidate, I guess...but it still has built-in axes and dimensions (e.g. brane dimensionality and size) -- whose underpinnings it doesn't even begin to postulate.

Besides, while treating time as a dimension is convenient mathematically, I personally have a really hard time swallowing time's equivalence with space. The universe could easily have one less spatial dimension and be flat or one extra spatial dimension and be who-knows-what -- but a timeless universe?? Somehow there's no equivalence there. Plus, one can only move in a single direction along time while space doesn't impose such constraints. Moreover, I have a real issue with the relativity of time as opposed to relativity of matter-energy reaction rates. IMHO one of the fundamental reasons why the GR theory is incompatible with QM is that it takes a manifold-centric approach while forgetting that it is matter and energy that measurably define that manifold to begin with (well yes, it does include the gravitational warping -- but that's only one effect connected to matter-energy; what about the rest?) And there's a totally unaddressed but central chicken-egg question of what is primary: matter-energy, or the manifold? GR says the manifold, QM says matter-energy, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's either none or both or both plus something else.

In short, there are way too many unanswered questions and oddities shoved under the rug. Which is why I don't think current theories can be validly extrapolated as far as the existence prior to the Big Bang.

I said: <i>Perhaps God can delegate some part of himself to exist within time?</i>
You replied: <i>In which case the two parts of God are completely disconnected from each other. Moreover, God has no way of inserting part of itself into the universe.</i>

How do you reach that conclusion?

Well, how does part of God end up in a time-bound universe? It had to be integral to God prior to universe's creation, and it still has to have a connection to God after the universe's creation (otherwise, it wouldn't be correct to consider it a part of God any longer.) So if God can emplace a part of itself in the time-bound universe and maintain a link to it, then there is really no reason why God can't put all (or most) of itself within the time-bound universe. Your integration-by-parts approach doesn't really address the original question: how is there any possibility of an information exchange between a time-bound universe and a hypothetical (and paradoxical) timeless enclosure? Any such linkage automatically "infiltrates" time into a supposedly timeless environment -- by the virtue of sequentially affecting something within that environment.

And again, how can anything be "started" or "created" absent the context of time? It's a logical contradiction to apply such concepts to a hypothetical timeless existence.

On the grounds that the possibility is not ruled out by anything we know about our universe.

Except: possibility of what? Any noun or adjective you could ever come up with in order to describe the undescribable would be apriori paradoxical in such a context. The ultimate and only claim you could ever make concerning the inconceivable is: it's inconceivable. Inconceivable, on the other hand, is nonexistent. Because to exist it would have to manifest itself, and manifestations are conceivable. On the other hand, absent any manifestation there is no distinction between existence and nonexistence.

<i>Remember, I'm disproving God -- not a god.</i>

I thought I conceded your point about God vs. god earlier. I'm talking god, not God (for now, at least :))

Forgive me for being mislead by your consistent usage of the capitalized "God", "His", "Him", etc.

<i>Haven't I done enough yet to convince you that such concepts are a logical impossibility?</i>

I'm afraid not. Sorry.

Ok. How about now? :D
 
You're merely assuming that because you don't believe the truth, you can create your own version of truth and believe that.
That is indeed a sad situation for you to be in. Denying truths seems easy for you though. I suppose it is because of your conditioning, I'm sorry, converted state.
You'd be right if "preponderance of evidence" meant anything.
You need not tell me that the truth is meaningless to you.
That's even worse.
Not only are you arguing that no one wins the lottery, you are also trying to argue there is no lottery.
What preponderance of evidence would there be for that?
You play the game called "invent the creator and hope you're right." Your ticket lists Christian God. I am simply saying that the game is invalid as there is no creator.
I can't remember seeing dry land that had no evidence of being covered in water at one point.
Mind you, I haven't covered every square inch of the Earth's surface.
All with great distances in time between them and some so long ago that we can't establish water marks. Most with signs of only slight erosion by lakes or streams.
That's just imaginary.
The layers are dated by what is found in them, and what is found in them is dated by the layers they are found in.
That's just the typical circular "scientific" logic.
I know you are an expert in imaginary evidence. Why is it that only like creatures are found within given areas? We can seperate complexity of life by layer. I suppose all these creatures of like groups took turns laying in the ground until all the layers were finished. If you are willing to believe that some man lived probably 1,000 years collecting animals for a boat, and finally sailing around for 40 days and nights, you are willing to believe anything.
Do you live under a bridge?
No, bad example, even bridges are created.
You must own no furniture, since furniture has been created.
It didn't just grow, you know.
I can see you are lacking for a good definition of creation. What you meant was that those objects were composed from existing matter. Matter and Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. I see you have problems with understanding even the most basic concepts, but there it is your lack of knowledge.
The universe is here.
The other options are that it created itself, which is nonsensical, and that it was always here, in which case all of the scientific research that it is 15 billion years old is nonsense
I can't see why I would think that you could comprehend something of which you know not. Scientists never said created. That is against the basics of physics and chemistry. They said that the last big bang occurred 10 or 20 billion years ago. What was before that escapes our current capacity. That we do not know what cam before, does not mean that nothing came before. That is your failure of logic.
So far, the evidence for that "long chain" of humanoids is the tooth of a wild pig (Nebraska man) and a knee joint and a jawbone found a few miles apart (collectively called Lucy).
If you have eyes and ears I know you do not use them. We have more examples than that. Those are only the notable cases. We have digs, hundreds of thousands of skulls, full skeletons, and artifacts of other origin.
 
Re: for atheists?

Originally posted by physicsforums.com
why continue living? it everything is for nothing, why live? take a gun and shoot yourself. the time you atheists are living is so small compared to infinity that your life must then be very close to nothingness. if life is ultimitely meaningless then why live? nothing in the end matters.All life on planet Earth has meaning and purpose! And 'Man', created in the 'image of GOD', has an awsome purpose and meaning to our existance! Jesus the Son of GOD came to Earth as a baby, lived the purfect life, and died( & rose from the dead, to life everlasting),(as a ransom) for us all! That we may come unto Him for forgiveness of sins! Jesus is "God with us!" He alone saves and to make all those that call on His Holy name, saved and Holy before GOD the Father! And shall never die!

Of all the universe, He chose this Earth, and made Man in His image! The only 'tarestial-being' of all the universe and beyond, to be made in His (GOD's) image! You are very special!:D LIVE!!!


so i conclude that any atheist that isn't dead isn't a true atheist.
Athiest are dead (spiritually) in their trespasses and sins! And ignorance of the 'Absolute Truth of the God of Abraham's Holy Word of GOD!' We have a supieror message to the world!
 
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Loone,

All life on planet Earth has meaning and purpose!
There is no meaning to life since life is not a message. The purpose of life is whatever living beings and creatures find for themselves. To some lifeforms the purpose of plants is to provide food, for example. For humans the purpose of living is whatever purpose they wish to place on their lives.

And 'Man', created in the 'image of GOD', has an awsome purpose and meaning to our existance!
Men are still quite limited biological lifeforms with significant weaknesses, being subject to sickness, diseases, short lifespans, etc. But ignoring the physical aspects then the intellectual deficiencies alone are significant problems. If God has the same attributes as you imply then we should pity him for being so inadequate.

Jesus the Son of GOD came to Earth as a baby, lived the purfect life, and died (as a ransom) for us all!
This is a pleasant fairy story that I notice that many children enjoy. They love the ‘baby’ part and the nativity. It is a shame that many children are being told such things as if such stories are real. The religious indoctrination of young children is one of the greatest evils of Christianity. Most sane and rational adults of course can see the deception for what it is.

That we may come unto Him for forgiveness of sins! Jesus is "God with us!" He alone saves and to make all those that call on His Holy name, saved and Holy before GOD the Father! And shall never die!
It is an interesting mythology that many are beginning to realize. But such superstitions and fairy stories are gradually being replaced by knowledge and wisdom. I suspect that for centuries to come plays and movies will continue to provide entertainment based on these storybook fantasies, where actors will portray the roles of the ignorant and misguided Christians and all the terrible wars and terror they created.

Of all the universe, He chose this Earth, and made Man in His image! The only 'tarestial-being' of all the universe and beyond, to be made in His (GOD's) image! You are very special! LIVE!!!
Primitive people have often considered themselves arrogant, superior, and special, just like this. But as we learn more about the universe and its unimaginable size we begin to see ourselves in a more accurate and humbling perspective. We have no more relevance to the universe than a single grain of sand has to the oceans of the Earth. We are currently completely insignificant and may easily become extinct when the next asteroid hits the planet.

Athiest are dead (spiritually) in their treaspass and sins! And ignorance of the 'Absolute Truth of the God of Abraham's Holy Word of GOD!' We have a supieror message to the world!
We should expect even more abrasive rhetoric from followers of this dying religion as Christianity goes through it’s death throes. But that is a good sign. There is really no significant action that atheists need to take other than simple polite reminders of the irrelevance of such religions. All the time science and the resultant knowledge and wisdom continue to grow then it is certain that religions will decline and die out in direct inverse proportion. Fortunately science is growing at a currently exponential rate indicating that Christianity cannot last very much longer, a few decades maybe.

Bye Loone,

Enjoy your dreams while you can, I’m sure it gives you great pleasure to preach here, but I’ll continue to point out reality for you, in case you ever find a need for it.

Cris
 
tony1,

Just thought I'd drop a word in to correct a few factual errors.

<i>After all, the preponderance of evidence is that nobody wins the lottery.</i>

No. Every week somebody wins the lottery. It's well publicised. People wouldn't play the game if they didn't hear about the winners.

<i>The [fossil] layers are dated by what is found in them, and what is found in them is dated by the layers they are found in.</i>

No. Relative dating is used as an adjunct to absolute dating methods. It's not a circular argument.

<i>*There was no great flood in recent history.*
Prove that. ... No one has had the time to examine every square inch of the earth's surface.</i>

Evidence for a global flood should be everywhere, so there's no need to examine every inch. Unfortunately, such evidence just hasn't been found.

<i>So far, the evidence for that "long chain" of humanoids is the tooth of a wild pig (Nebraska man) and a knee joint and a jawbone found a few miles apart (collectively called Lucy).</i>

I think you should read some of the literature. There's far more evidence than that. In fact, I suspect you know that, and are merely trying to misrepresent the strength of the evidence for your own ends. That's less than honest.
 
Hi Bambi,

<i>Hmmm, as far as I know the Big Bang is only concerned with describing the evolution of a particular three-dimensional manifold (or, if you like, describing the shape of a particular four-dimensional sculpture.) The Big Bang has nothing to say concerning the topic of where the 3+1 dimensions come from, or whether they existed prior to the Big Bang.</i>

General relativistic descriptions of spacetime at the big bang have a space of essentially zero size, and, as I understand it, a spacetime curvature such that the time co-ordinate is indistinguishable from the spatial co-ordinates. It is true it does not say where these came from (if anywhere). However, I believe that negative times (prior to the big bang) are not permitted by the theory. One possible way around this is to allow "imaginary time", such as that postulated by Stephen Hawking, but I'm not sure of the details of that theory.

<i>Besides, while treating time as a dimension is convenient mathematically, I personally have a really hard time swallowing time's equivalence with space.</i>

You really start to appreciate that when you look at reference frames in relative motion. In that case, some of one person's time can become part of another's space, and vice versa, as described mathematically by the Lorentz transformations. In general relativity, quantities come in 4-vectors, whose time and spatial components always mix under the transformations.

<i>IMHO one of the fundamental reasons why the GR theory is incompatible with QM is that it takes a manifold-centric approach while forgetting that it is matter and energy that measurably define that manifold to begin with</i>

The usual maxim is: Spacetime tells matter how to move, matter tells spacetime how to curve. Neither is primary.

<i>Well, how does part of God end up in a time-bound universe? It had to be integral to God prior to universe's creation, and it still has to have a connection to God after the universe's creation (otherwise, it wouldn't be correct to consider it a part of God any longer.) So if God can emplace a part of itself in the time-bound universe and maintain a link to it, then there is really no reason why God can't put all (or most) of itself within the time-bound universe.</i>

I agree.

<i>Your integration-by-parts approach doesn't really address the original question: how is there any possibility of an information exchange between a time-bound universe and a hypothetical (and paradoxical) timeless enclosure? Any such linkage automatically "infiltrates" time into a supposedly timeless environment -- by the virtue of sequentially affecting something within that environment.</i>

I don't see a problem with that, except for the last bit. Time would be subsidiary in some way to non-time. Non-time things could sequentially affect things in time, but not vice-versa. Once again, we hit the problem of describing a non-time from within the context of time.

<i>And again, how can anything be "started" or "created" absent the context of time?</i>

That's our problem with language and point of view, not God's.

<i>The ultimate and only claim you could ever make concerning the inconceivable is: it's inconceivable.</i>

Ok. But I'm conceiving of a timeless realm. Clearly that's not inconceivable. ;)

<i>Forgive me for being mislead by your consistent usage of the capitalized "God", "His", "Him", etc.</i>

My rule is: if I'm referring to a general conception of a non-specific god or gods, I don't capitalise. If I am referring a particular God, or God as a concious, thinking being, I use the capital. The capitalised "He" or "Her" is polite, in case She's watching. :) It's also kind of traditional.
 
Originally posted by James R

General relativistic descriptions of spacetime at the big bang have a space of essentially zero size, and, as I understand it, a spacetime curvature such that the time co-ordinate is indistinguishable from the spatial co-ordinates.

I see we're developing a nice tangent in our discussion. Oh well, I don't mind. The issue with the Big Bang is that GR hits singularities at the supposed start of time. Under such conditions no valid conclusions can be drawn, as the mathematics itself becomes inconsistent (dividing by 0, etc.) Which is of course the best-known indicator of GR’s incompleteness.

For example, is spacetime currently infinite? If you fly in a single direction with the speed of light, will you ever hit the edge of space or wrap back to your point of origin? If the universe is truly flat and infinite, then it’s a mathematical paradox to reduce its dimensions to 0 at its origin within finite time (even in 15 billion years.) You just can’t shrink the dimensions of an infinite plane into a point (or the inverse) by any sort of scaling short of introducing a rather unmathematical discontinuity. Besides, what we are talking about here are unqualified extrapolated limits, not specific measurements.

Not only that, but the reduction to “essentially” zero size applies specifically to the observable universe only. IOW it applies to the totality of all the currently observable matter 15 billion light years out into space being crammed into an infinitecimal speck. It does not say anything about possibly infinite stretches beyond the lightspeed-imposed observational limit, nor does it say anything about the coordinate system within which “spacetime” undergoes deformation.

You really start to appreciate that when you look at reference frames in relative motion. In that case, some of one person's time can become part of another's space, and vice versa, as described mathematically by the Lorentz transformations. In general relativity, quantities come in 4-vectors, whose time and spatial components always mix under the transformations.

The problem with Lorentz transformations is that they do not interpret themselves -- that task is up to you and me. Now, one could say that the transformations literally take one dimension and blend it into another. However, one could also say that the observer's measurements of the four coordinates produce outcomes that are dependent on the observer's relative velocity with respect to the object being measured. Note that under such an interpretation there is no gray area between the distinct dimensions. And indeed, I rather prefer that second interpretation -- because the same event can be measured by many distinct inertial observers and they will all record distinct measurements. That cannot mean that each of them is in a different universe just as long as they don't all travel with the same velocity -- rather it's their measurements that differ based on their different velocities relative to the event in question.

The usual maxim is: Spacetime tells matter how to move, matter tells spacetime how to curve. Neither is primary.

Can we postulate a spacetime without any matter in it? Can we do the converse?

Spacetime is defined entirely in terms of matter's behavior. The source of dimensionality is not addressed. This is a little like defining the atmosphere in terms of the sound it propagates. It completely misses the possibility that an atmosphere can have a very rich structure quite apart from the sound it carries, while at the same time sound is not a phenomenon that can be exhibited only by the atmosphere.

In short, I think modern physics is missing something major, big time.

<i>Your integration-by-parts approach doesn't really address the original question: how is there any possibility of an information exchange between a time-bound universe and a hypothetical (and paradoxical) timeless enclosure? Any such linkage automatically "infiltrates" time into a supposedly timeless environment -- by the virtue of sequentially affecting something within that environment.</i>

I don't see a problem with that, except for the last bit. Time would be subsidiary in some way to non-time. Non-time things could sequentially affect things in time, but not vice-versa. Once again, we hit the problem of describing a non-time from within the context of time.

That is even more paradoxical than what I argued. What I was trying to say is, anything happening in a time-bound system and sending feedback into some “timeless” environment will have sequential effects on that environment due to the sequential nature of the feedback being sent. And if an environment allows sequences then it is time-bound by definition. IOW any region of the universe interacting with a time-bound region must also be time-bound (how’s that for a mathematical theorem?)

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that “timeless” is actually a superset of “time-bound”. In which case, I’m having trouble understanding your definition of “timeless” as it no longer implies absense of time.

<i>The ultimate and only claim you could ever make concerning the inconceivable is: it's inconceivable.</i>

Ok. But I'm conceiving of a timeless realm. Clearly that's not inconceivable. ;)

Isn’t it, though? I can “conceive” a square circle too – that doesn’t mean such a concept is internally consistent. I’d say you aren’t conceiving; you’re misconceiving. ;)
 
All life has purpose and meaning!

Originally posted by Cris
Loone,

We should expect even more abrasive rhetoric from followers of this dying religion as Christianity goes through it’s death throes. But that is a good sign. There is really no significant action that atheists need to take other than simple polite reminders of the irrelevance of such religions. All the time science and the resultant knowledge and wisdom continue to grow then it is certain that religions will decline and die out in direct inverse proportion. Fortunately science is growing at a currently exponential rate indicating that Christianity cannot last very much longer, a few decades maybe.

Bye Loone,

Enjoy your dreams while you can, I’m sure it gives you great pleasure to preach here, but I’ll continue to point out reality for you, in case you ever find a need for it.

It is all acording to the Word of the 'Living GOD', you will one day have to face Him!:) I hope on Earth in this life! It isn't dreams, but reality! And not of my own, but of GOD's!

You are foolish to think that life has no meaning, that is a far too silly, and dumb a statment to make, even on this forum!:rolleyes:

All that is made, seen and unseen, that to which is good, and evil has meaning and purpose, and we 'Humans' created in the image of God have a high purpose and meaning in life, and that to come, to the Glory of God your Creator! Atheist have only LIES to stand on as you see! But that is a fatal mistake to really believe the lies you hold on to! It is really dangerous for you and peoples around you to hold to the lies of the Devil (Satan, the evil one, who is a spirit who deceives)! Cris, there is Absolute Truth of God's Holy Word, and they are good sound foundations for good thinking persons, if you believe in God or not! He (GOD) is a real person, Jesus is, and His teachings on meaning and purpose to life is most superior to yours and other none believers! ......The LIES of "no purpose, no meaning", have no basess in reality at all! Any way!:D Someone have to be very dumb to believe that you would take it as fact! None pending on their education etc.!

All life on Earth has meaning and purpose! And Man was created a little lower then the angelic beings! Although fallen! Still, to the Glory of his Creator GOD, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!:D

Cris
:rolleyes:Have meaning to your life!:) Have purpose to your exsitance!:) And have a more open mind to truths that super-ceids yours!:)
 
Atheist have only LIES to stand on as you see!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! :p

Sorry, couldn't resist, is stupidity a requirement to be an exorcist loone? :D

Sigh.... I'm ok now. :)
 
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