for atheists

[Bebelina]

So when you feel sad, for example, you dimiss it as just a malfunction in the brain?
Hmm...maybe you are a droid?

Many( most people I would even say) has experienced non-physical experiences, unable to explain them in physical or other terms and not willing to run to the nearest laboratory to get their brains examined. People are afraid of being labeled as insane and most people with non-physical experiences can´t perform the event again, on demand, for the laboratory personell to examine.
And then there is of course the constant dilemma of the impossibility of proving something non-physical within the physical world. To get proof, you must experience it yourself, and to do that you must open your mind to the possibility to begin with. Unless you are one of the lucky ones..that will get in anyway, without asking. I think you are, and I look forward to that day.
The ghosts of Christmas passed will pay you a visit....

However, I´m sure I´ve seen programmes on TV about such laboratory experiments concerning astral projection for example, which succeded in proving the phenomena.
Maybe you should read some books on the subject, it´s interesting whether you believe it or not. Maybe a lot of non-physical phenomena has already been scientifically proven in some way, and you just don´t know about it, since you don´t read that kind of litterature...

 

[Cris]

Bebelina

So when you feel sad, for example, you dimiss it as just a malfunction in the brain?

I don’t understand why you would consider an emotion as a malfunction. The brain = mind = consciousness = self.

The neural networks in your brain are what make you you. They are entirely responsible for all your thoughts, dreams, ideas, and all emotions, e.g. everything that make you a unique individual. These ‘brain patterns’ are entirely physical.

Can you point me at any article that claims to have proven a supernatural phenomenon please, and I’ll take a look.

Cris

 

[Bebelina]

That was just a joke of course, I don´t consider emotions as malfunctions, just insinuated humourously that you did.
But what creates the brainpatterns, what creates the neural network, what creates this physical reality?

Sorry I can´t, you will have to look it up yourself. Go to the library.
Not meaning to sound rude, just haven´t got time to investigate myself, and unfortunately I don´t have any such articles stuffed in my back pocket.

 

[Adam]

Evolution developed our brains. The more we thought, the more our neural pathways grew and changed. They still grow and change throught one's life, by the way. Emotions are chemical activities which help us interact with our world and particularly with other creatures, and most importantly with others of our own species.

What creates this physical reality? First, it is important to note that this physical reality is not a part of our philosophy. Our philosophy is a part of this reality.

 

[Teg]

If you're an unbeliever than you don't believe anything at all.

Ego. All who do not follow your version do not have truth: pretty narrow-minded.

What you think you "believe" is untrue, therefore you believe in nothing.

I'll bite, you could be right, but also remember that you could be wrong. On the preponderance of the evidence I would say that you don't believe anything at all.

Sucker!
That is merely another way of saying no one ever wins a lottery since the weight of probability is that you don't.
I think I've mentioned it before; you are very weak in math and logic.

Do I have to explain your lack of judgement in that scenario again? I never said that a person has no chance of winning. It is likely that when you compound enough fools, one of them will win. That is not applicable to this situation. All the fools on your side have the exact same set of numbers. We are simply trying to prove that there is no lotto, in the metaphorical sense. I never said that you have no chance of being right. I am simply stating that you have no support for your conclusions. The ideas in your book are not far from legends of dragons eating the moon. Your people held onto the idea that the heavens (stars) were unchanging. It is not unlike a mass-delusion.

You simply think that Christians are born.
Well, no one is born Christian.
Everyone has to be converted to Christianity.

So you admit that Christians are conditioned. Relenting this means everything, sorry that you missed the point. Numbers, science are independent of culture. Discovery by observation leads to uniform conclusions. Christianity is based on a fluke of events. It proliferates only because of current popularity. Thus its claim on absolute truth is not based on anything concrete. That should be the point where I claim victory, but knowing your inability to comprehend complex ideas, it will not.

No one believes in God on that basis, however, as you can see yourself (maybe), God cannot be precluded.

That has been the only Christian argument to come along so far. From my observation that must be the basis for your belief. I hear much about proof for believers and unkown arguments. Is there a reason that you have not let loose these big guns? I can only conclude that like your god they do not exist.

Why don't you try presenting some to argue with?

The explanation for dinosaur bones has been the flood lately. Why then is there no evidence of this flood that, to have covered the earth in fossils, must have washed over every bit of dry land. That is direct contradictory evidence against the biblical flood and it disputes the conclusion that dinosaurs are a resultant. In fact there is more. No humans have been found in specific layers as deep as dinosaurs. The fact that we can distinguish the layers in terms of type of life and specific species of dinosaurs that only appear in specific layers. There was no such fllood, recently. There earth is older than your book states. That is a large lapse in truth. How much more of it could be lies?

 

[Cris]

Bebelina,

Ya know I must be a droid, I didn’t see the smiley and thought you were being serious, being a droid I have no emotions and didn’t recognize humor, perhaps my real name is Data. But why couldn't droids have emotions?

But what creates the brainpatterns, what creates the neural network, what creates this physical reality?

You have 5 senses. From the time your brain is formed you have a bunch of raw neurons in your brain each with thousands of tentacle like dendrites flailing around. As your senses develop and you start using them, sensory input causes the dendrites to start making connections to other neurons. Your brain begins to form patterns (neural networks) that correlate directly with sensory input. Input that is repeated frequently tends to reinforce the corresponding networks; in fact the dendrites and the synaptic connections are physically strengthened by a glue-like coating (i.e. your brain has learnt). Even within the womb your brain is continually being bombarded by sensory data which it continues to relate to either existing networks or it creates new ones. When you are young you have relatively very few neural networks, since you are just at the start of the learning process. As we grow older we continue to learn and form new neural networks but nowhere near the rate of that of a baby.

Everything you experience even from the time you are in the womb is associated with neural networks. And everything has come to you via your 5 senses. But we also have the ability to process the stored networks and create new networks via that process. Every thought, idea, concept, memory and emotions, are held in your brain. Your brain is you.

As for evidence of the supernatural: I thought you might know something for sure. All the claimed scientific studies I’ve seen do not class as science. Pseudo-science maybe, but they all fail to use the scientific method correctly and their conclusions become just meaningless speculations.

For now as far as I can tell the supernatural appears no more than a creation of human imagination.

Cris

 

[Yes!]

The real question...

Ok.
A lot of talk about the logical need for God and whether the Judeo-Christian God is the True God (that last part mostly form Sir Loone and tony1).


So here is my first question to tony1 and Loone and whoever else is adament about their particular style of religion:

Main question:

Are Mormons going to hell? And if so why?

Follow-up:

Are Islamic folk going to hell? Why?
Are Jews going to hell? Why?
Are Chinese or Native-American Animists going to hell? Why?
Are Buhddists?
How about Hindu?
Or Vodoun?
And what happened to all those people who lived before the
diffusion of religion across the world, did they go to hell simply because they never had the chance to be saved?

But all I really want answered is the Mormon one (I bet you can guess why).

 

[Bebelina]

Adam, trancending the physical reality in thought is an ability most humans have, to think longer than the eye can see. What does your philosophy within the physical world tell you about where it came from, how it started before matter was created?
This question can be to you too, Cris. Since my original question had nothing with the answer you provided to do. Where did matter come from ( don´t give some looong big bang theory now..), what created the physical reality, including big bang? Because it had to be something, it can´t have been nothing, right?

Sorry for being lazy Cris, I don´t even know where to look. Maybe at universities that investigate these things.
And still, since imagination is real ( can even be proven scientifically? ), then everything created by it must also be real. What the mind produces with its thought slowly takes form in the physical reality. If many people think the same thing, then it forms faster and has a larger impact.
That is why the world is like it is today. The change must come from within.

 

[Hoth]

Originally posted by Cris
Everything you experience even from the time you are in the womb is associated with neural networks. And everything has come to you via your 5 senses. But we also have the ability to process the stored networks and create new networks via that process. Every thought, idea, concept, memory and emotions, are held in your brain. Your brain is you.

Everything you experience is associated with neural networks. If you'd just stop there, where you have reasonable logical grounding, you'd be fine. However, to say that everything you experience is neural networks or that everything you are is neural networks is just illogical. First, you'd be forced to say the brain is self-aware. To argue that something can be self-aware contradicts logic: the existence of the observed logically shows that there's an observer. If "you" is defined as that which is aware of things, then the brain can't be you, because like everything else in the universe the brain has to obey the logical fact that it can't observe itself. If you have a brain observing itself, you have to be making an exception to basic logic -- which means you can pretty much throw out the entire universe, because it would no longer be required to make the slightest bit of sense anywhere if it didn't want to... at that point religion would suddenly become a better path to wisdom than science.

Besides just the consciousness distinct from the brain, there's also the simple logic Bebelina mentioned, of the imagination (and everything else in the mind). Even if everything in the imagination is associated with neural networks (and my guess, probably just because I like things as simple as possible, is that that's the case), it remains unintelligible and logically false to claim that you're conscious of neural networks themselves. For one thing we'd know a lot more about the brain if we were directly conscious of neurons , and more importantly to be conscious of a large group of atoms is a meaningless idea -- it would not involve thought, only observation of complex physical interaction (although it's hard to imagine what this observation would be like without being able to think about the interactions going on). From the reality of the fact that we don't directly observe the existence of subatomic particles in our head, it's obvious that the brain produces another sort of thing out of itself that's what we're conscious of. (Thought -- which is directly observed, so the one nice thing about it is unlike with the external we can say with accuracy that it's exactly what we experience.)

Simple logic beats science every time, because science depends on logic for its own existence. Yet here you are trying to ignore the foundation of science just because you like things that can be verified with external experiments. Of course there's nothing here that contradicts science in any way either, it's just outside the realm of what can be objectively observed and so science has no mechanism for exploring it... leaving logic as the rational method.

Originally posted by Cris
For now as far as I can tell the supernatural appears no more than a creation of human imagination.

Well, for one thing "supernatural" is kind of a contradiction in terms. If it exists it's natural... although maybe religious people call god unnatural?

If by supernatural people mean nonphysical, then they should keep in mind that nonphysical means not independently observable -- no more, no less. So, it'd have to be something in the subjective realm. Thoughts certainly fit that, although since you can observe their causes so you can almost get around it... you can guess at their nature even if you can't actually observe thoughts themselves, so long as you make the presumption that the nature of thought to other people is similar to what it is for you. Consciousness, of course, it totally non-observable. So, thoughts and consciousness are the only nonphysical things I see any reason to believe in... anything else nonphysical that you can observe would be almost by definition a thought... which doesn't degrade it at all of course.

Originally posted by Bebelina
And still, since imagination is real ( can even be proven scientifically? ), then everything created by it must also be real.

Bertrand Russell went as far as to say that things in the imagination have the same level of reality as what the senses observe from the external world. Of course he wasn't saying imagined things are in the external world, just that observations of hallucinations for example are the same sort of thing as observations of the external world.

 

[Cris]

Bebelina,

What does your philosophy within the physical world tell you about where it came from, how it started before matter was created?

Where did matter come from ( don´t give some looong big bang theory now..), what created the physical reality, including big bang? Because it had to be something, it can´t have been nothing, right?

OK. There wasn’t a big bang. And I guess you are insisting that for every effect there has to be a cause, right?

Latest theory from MIT indicates there may be an infinite number of big bangs all in various states of expansion, decaying, or starting. Our local big bang bubble is just our small observable part of an infinite universe.

Every theory for the start of the universe requires something that started it. If you follow the entire line of reasoning you end up with a need for something to be infinite, perhaps a god, or the universe itself. But even with a god there is the question of who created the god, until again you have an infinite series, e.g. the creator of the god, and the creator of that creator etc. Kinda dumb. Others might say that a creator god is the first uncaused first cause. But that is just an attempt to rationalize an already irrational belief in the hope for a god. We can reduce all of that to the obvious conclusion and the simplest.

Since there is nothing that indicates that there are any gods and using Ocams Razor (i.e. the simplest explanation of a phenomenon is usually the truth), then an infinite universe is the obvious conclusion.

To quote Stephan Hawking –

One could say: 'The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary.' The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 136.]

So really the idea that was no time before matter existed and the universe just IS, sits quite well with my view of the universe.

Don’t worry about trying to find proofs for the supernatural. I’m sure if there were any real conclusive proof we would have heard about by now. The Vatican has one of the largest groups of researchers in the world dedicated to investigating claims of the supernatural. I’m sure they’d shout very loud if they ever found something concrete.

Cris

 

[Hoth]

About the beginning and end...

Thanks to the definition of time itself, and the fact that at the beginning and the end there's no time but our perspective we're talking about it from is obviously within time, both the beginning and the end are better understood as limits. Movement is time, and there can be no beginning time or end time since by the lack of things there it'd automatically be outside time. So, looking either direction things approach and grow infinitely close to these limits, but logically can never reach them. At least, that's my best conception of it.

 

[Cris]

Hoth,

… to say that everything you experience is neural networks or that everything you are is neural networks is just illogical. First, you'd be forced to say the brain is self-aware.

Of course the brain is self-aware – the brain is you. You are trying to introduce a level of abstraction and complexity that just isn’t present or necessary.

To argue that something can be self-aware contradicts logic:

Based on that conclusion you are saying that you are not aware, since clearly you are ‘something’. That, and your argument, is clearly nonsense, right?

.. the existence of the observed logically shows that there's an observer. If "you" is defined as that which is aware of things, then the brain can't be you, because like everything else in the universe the brain has to obey the logical fact that it can't observe itself.

No. You haven’t understood what I’ve said. You are your brain; they are indistinguishable. You cannot treat them as independent objects. Your brain is what enables you to be self-aware. You and your brain are one and the same thing.

Most of the remainder of your post is nonsense since you haven’t understood this basic perspective.

Stop trying to imagine yourself as some form of ethereal entity floating outside of a physical body, there is no evidence for such things.

Simple logic beats science every time, because science depends on logic for its own existence.

There is no competition between logic and science. Science is applied logic. Logic has no value until it is used. The concept of logic beating science is gibberish.

Yet here you are trying to ignore the foundation of science just because you like things that can be verified with external experiments.

Ignore the foundation of science? Like experiments? What are you talking about? Experimentation and observation are the foundations of science, which are a major part of the scientific method.

Of course there's nothing here that contradicts science in any way either, it's just outside the realm of what can be objectively observed and so science has no mechanism for exploring it... leaving logic as the rational method.

If something cannot be objectively observed or detected then it either does not exist or cannot be known to exist. Logic by itself is useless without facts and evidence for its premises, i.e. logic needs a knowledge base for it to operate, and science is the mechanism that provides knowledge. It doesn’t matter how much you attempt to use logic, if there is no evidence then logic cannot reach a conclusion. You have no choice but to use science if you want to discover anything.

The processes of theorizing and hypothesizing are the scientific methods used to help search and find evidence and define new knowledge. All such processes are fully dependent on logic for their success.

If by supernatural people mean nonphysical, then they should keep in mind that nonphysical means not independently observable -- no more, no less.

That is a very peculiar definition of the supernatural. This says that if something cannot be observed then it is supernatural – that is just more gibberish. If something cannot be observed or detected then it either does not exist or it cannot be known to exist. Attempting to conclude that something does exist without being able to show evidence is illogical and irrational.

So, it'd have to be something in the subjective realm.

No, just an irrational conclusion.

Thoughts certainly fit that,

No there is no certainty to that conclusion at all. Thoughts are either the result of neural networks or their nature is unknown.

Consciousness, of course, it totally non-observable.

That is an invalid conclusion. Again Consciousness is either the result of neural networks or its nature is unknown. You do not have enough evidence to make any other conclusion; hence your logic is invalid.

So, thoughts and consciousness are the only nonphysical things

Again invalid logic. You cannot conclude any such thing. That is pure unsupported speculation.

Cris

 

[Teg]

So when you feel sad, for example, you dimiss it as just a malfunction in the brain?

Generally that is just another function of the brain. Depression is the malfunction.

Many( most people I would even say) has experienced non-physical experiences, unable to explain them in physical or other terms and not willing to run to the nearest laboratory to get their brains examined. People are afraid of being labeled as insane and most people with non-physical experiences can´t perform the event again, on demand, for the laboratory personell to examine.

How are you defining this experience? I think that schizophrenia would probably fall into this category. It has been observed to change the composition of brain patterns. Many mental disorders have observable chemical imbalances. These are ussually the cases of truthfulness. It would easy to say that you had a vision. It would also be easy to believe that you had a vision. Also remember that there are substances and gases that might induce such visions. There are reports of post- death images of white lights and an out-of-body experience. Strictly on science this would be expected. The brain actually creates that tunnel during the shut down.

Adam, trancending the physical reality in thought is an ability most humans have, to think longer than the eye can see. What does your philosophy within the physical world tell you about where it came from, how it started before matter was created?

I assume you are still speaking of drugs. Failing that I see no instances of transcendentalism. It is more of an egocentric way to seperate humans from other "lesser" creatures.

Where did matter come from ( don´t give some looong big bang theory now..), what created the physical reality, including big bang? Because it had to be something, it can´t have been nothing, right?

We are limited beings. It is hard for us to comprehend matter as a property of the universe. We like to seperate it from energy and other phenomena. The truth is that they are just a consequence of the laws of physics. You like to assign beginnings. When was all this matter created? You forget that matter cannot be created. What does this mean? That just as time, space and everything else, matter too is infinite. No beginning, no ending.

There is actually a glaring hole in that question. If your postulate requires that everything is made, then what made god? You see that it is actually easier to prove that matter is naturally occuring.

 

[Bebelina]

Ok, this was a lot to answer to....

I wouldn´t say that psychic diseases would fall into that category, they are something completely different. Although everything has a non-physical equal experience, but a disease as such, that is painful for the individual, I wouldn´t cassify as just purely that, it´s very physical too, and very real to the person that suffers from it.
Classical and easy to define non-physical experiences can be astral projection for example, which I and many with me have experienced. Just ask your friends if they ever have floated out of their body sometimes. I did when I had had my first such experience, and to my BIG surprise almost ALL of my friends and aquntainces had. And that is not because all my friends are total nutcases, as you might want them to be, they are people from all categories of life. Very sane, all of them.
And mediums, who channels another spirit than their own through their body. My grandmother for example often speaks to her dead sister and gets information, previously not known, from her that always prove to be true.
I really suggest you all read some books on these issues, because I´m not an encyklopedia.
However the tunnel of white light is created to begin with, it will still lead to something. The energy that was you will move on to another form.

I come to think of this experiment that they showed on Discovery channel some time ago, about the aliens. They exposed people for sound waves that produced the images of aliens and made the test persons think they were abducted. Now, this can be interpreted in at least two ways. That aliens are just a "ghost" residing in the brain, a picture that everybody sees for whatever reason, when exposed to these particular sound waves. Then the other is that aliens can contact us through these sound waves, when humans are exposed to these, we hook up on the alien frequency and can interact with them. I think the latter explanation is the most likely one, needless to say. Why would we have a grey ghost in our brain?

Trancending the physical reality has nothing with the ego or drugs to do at all. Why do you think that, Teg? Do you believe that you will dishonor the physical reality by thinking beyond it? I don´t see any creatures or experiences as lesser than others, all are equal. It´s our human nature to want to know more. To shed light where there is none. To bodly go....

I don´t see any contradiction in wanting to know how physical reality was created and how "God" was created. I want to know how "God" was created too. From nothing came something, maybe it was like that, maybe not, I really don´t know. But I´m willing to give it my best shot. To see beyond my human limitations, that only become limitations if we see them as such.
Matter is energy, the soul is energy, they are the same, but are manifesting their energy on different frequencies. I don´t dismiss the thought of everythigns origin as impossible to find out, I enjoy that thought very much. The final mystery, nobody knows...guessing is all we do. We can apply the theory that seems most likely to us as individuals , to feel at ease and not be disturbed by the thought anymore, but I don´t, a good mindboggle is the best there is.
My theory about the physical universe is that it expands with us who lives here. We will never be able to travel to the end of it, because we create new matter with our mind, to fill up the void, and therefore it expands. It´s a real illusion. Illusions are real.

I don´t know how things work in the scientific world, if it´s best to keep your results secret and only use them for your own benefit, of the other way around, to shout it out to get appropriately admired for the discovery. I´m sure both options apply to many. The Vatican would probably keep them secret, they keep everything else secret....

Hoth, I liked that Bertand Russel theory. I agree, but with the addition that it will enter even the physical world in time, when and how depends on the vividity of the imagined event.

Well, I have just awakened and have a big fat cat in my lap, so don´t kill me right away, will you...
Maybe I will be back later today with some more lucid thoughts, this was a bit messy I admit...
Must have coffee...

 

[Teg]

Just ask your friends if they ever have floated out of their body sometimes. I did when I had had my first such experience, and to my BIG surprise almost ALL of my friends and aquntainces had. And that is not because all my friends are total nutcases, as you might want them to be, they are people from all categories of life. Very sane, all of them.

I have had conversation of that nature. It always involves terms such as marijuana or near death. Both can be explained through physical means. How do you define non-physical? From my perspective that seems a bit of a paradox.

And mediums, who channels another spirit than their own through their body.

Frauds are common amongst human beings. I have noticed that one of two scenarios takes place.
1. The person wants to believe. They cling to the memory of the dead person. The fraud floats names like John and Jane. They proceed to say "something about shoes" in a questioning matter. That is not supernatural. It simple probing. Who doesn't wear shoes? If they don't it would be labeled as abnormal and the "medium" converts his/her words into the negative.
2. The person is an obvious mark. The "psychic" knows too many details. The person never disagrees. Identify this by the fact that the "psychic" will only go into detail for that person, and return to vague statements for his/her victim.

My grandmother for example often speaks to her dead sister and gets information, previously not known, from her that always prove to be true.

Senility can be a harsh fact of growing old. She may just be bringing up secrets or lost knowledge that she has yet to reveal. Occum's Razor.

I come to think of this experiment that they showed on Discovery channel some time ago, about the aliens. They exposed people for sound waves that produced the images of aliens and made the test persons think they were abducted. Now, this can be interpreted in at least two ways. That aliens are just a "ghost" residing in the brain, a picture that everybody sees for whatever reason, when exposed to these particular sound waves. Then the other is that aliens can contact us through these sound waves, when humans are exposed to these, we hook up on the alien frequency and can interact with them. I think the latter explanation is the most likely one, needless to say. Why would we have a grey ghost in our brain?

Have you seen the Cosmos hosted by Carl Sagan. He provides the the neccessary arguments to defeat the idea of alien abductions. There have been no credible accounts of that either.

Trancending the physical reality has nothing with the ego or drugs to do at all. Why do you think that, Teg? Do you believe that you will dishonor the physical reality by thinking beyond it? I don´t see any creatures or experiences as lesser than others, all are equal. It´s our human nature to want to know more. To shed light where there is none. To bodly go....

You just sounded like a follower of the Consciousness expansion movement. I have yet to see credible evidence for supernatural experiences.

I don´t see any contradiction in wanting to know how physical reality was created and how "God" was created. I want to know how "God" was created too. From nothing came something, maybe it was like that, maybe not, I really don´t know. But I´m willing to give it my best shot. To see beyond my human limitations, that only become limitations if we see them as such.

My point was that we need to explore the possibility that the act of creating is impossible. Nothing has been created to the best of our knowledge. Everything has been and will be. Nothing created, nothing destroyed. That does not mean that it cannot happen. That just makes that an unlikely possibility.

I too wish to explore possibilities. I have explored that path. On the preponderance of its evidence I do not find value in it. We can theorize about any number of god/gods, but we must always remember that they are just imaginings. A civilization requires a basis in knowledge, too.

 

[Sir. Loone]

God's Glory is forever!

Originally posted by Teg

My point was that we need to explore the possibility that the act of creating is impossible. Nothing has been created to the best of our knowledge. Everything has been and will be. Nothing created, nothing destroyed. That does not mean that it cannot happen. That just makes that an unlikely possibility.Very wrong there 'Teg', the act of creating the universe is not impossible for GOD the Almighty one! No! He had spoken it into existance! You can create from that which exist, But GOD can do it out of absolutly nothing! No 'Big Bang', but not to say it could be 'spoken into being' in that way! And death and destruction is all around, and creation! GOD is the only one here that really knows about what really happened at creation! You and I where not there when it happened! So I have Faith in what the Bibles says, and science is a good tool, but most are theories that give us mortals a picture of how things appear to happen in the universe!

I too wish to explore possibilities. I have explored that path. On the preponderance of its evidence I do not find value in it. We can theorize about any number of god/gods, but we must always remember that they are just imaginings. A civilization requires a basis in knowledge, too.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD! The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! The Jeudeo-Christian God! And He is very real and we all was created in His image, and not 'evolved' from anything else! Man was created fully formed! And a civilization requires Faith in a 'Greater Power', and wisedom with knowledge! Knowledge alone will not be enough for any nation to stand on for long! No! Ask the Nazi's! !

 

[Teg]

Very wrong there 'Teg', the act of creating the universe is not impossible for GOD the Almighty one!No!

Prove it.

He had spoken it into existance! You can create from that which exist, But GOD can do it out of absolutly nothing!

The act of creating from that which exists, really isn't creating. How can you prove that there is a god? How can you prove that secondly this god has a capacity to create? Matter cannot be created, by anyone. That is a fact that your theory must deal with.

No 'Big Bang', but not to say it could be 'spoken into being' in that way! And death and destruction is all around, and creation! GOD is the only one here that really knows about what really happened at creation!

The fact that you claim it to exist shows that you do not believe that. Death maybe, but not destruction in the way you think. Matter cannot be destroyed. It may change matrices, but will never be destroyed. It is convenient for you to believe that a god out there has all the answers. By admitting that you do not know everything you also admit that any claim about a god must be taken with a grain of salt.

You and I where not there when it happened! So I have Faith in what the Bibles says, and science is a good tool, but most are theories that give us mortals a picture of how things appear to happen in the universe!

Any claimed event would have also occurred prior to the writing of that book. They too would have no knowledge of that which they were writing. It is a simple fact of dating. Their accounts were taken from oral stories. These are historical facts. Also most of the events, including creation have significant failures in logic. There was no great flood in recent history. You cannot dispute these facts.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD! The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! The Jeudeo-Christian God! And He is very real and we all was created in His image, and not 'evolved' from anything else! Man was created fully formed! And a civilization requires Faith in a 'Greater Power', and wisedom with knowledge! Knowledge alone will not be enough for any nation to stand on for long! No! Ask the Nazi's!

Read the post concerning the Nazi's. Hitler was a religious man. You can profess this until you are blue in the face, but lacking any evidence it will remain a mere hypothesis. In fact most hypothesi have some basis in observation. For those standards your assumptions do not have such a backing.

I would not be so harsh if your testimony included facts. You know what all theists know, facts can be disputed, therefore you fear them as if they meant the endangering of your life. Without religion you fear your life is empty, meaningless. I make the point that death is not destruction.

 

[Sir. Loone]

God's Glory is forever!

Hi! Teg! The 'proof' is all around you! And you your self! GOD is Greater then man's imagination can conceive! He did it, and the Bible is 100% historicaly accurate! And is wisedom above that of men! Yes! We all were created in His image and not 'slime' to monkey, monkey (anthaphoid) to man, by chance! Come on! There are far better explanations then that ! You have power in your tounge that can build up someone, or destroy him! No other animal or creator on Earth has that power! You are created just a little lower then the Angalic host! You are ,although fallen, was made in the image of GOD your Creator to the Glory of GOD, not as to just to recounstitute the ground, and be worm-food at death! But you have an immortal soul & spirit that will live forever somewhere in Heaven , where God who is 'Love' would have you! Are you know, the Hell that was prepared for the Devil and his 'fallen angels' demons, but orig. not for man, but the fall of man, you would have to chose in this life! GOD's Holy Word is a far better foundation for any sociaty to build on!

Look up! And see that the Creator is good! He gives you a life time to come to the truth of His Words of Truth!

 

[Markx]

So teg, Can I say we all are accident? I mean we are here right? But if there is no Creator then we are all must be evolved. It is just hard for me to digest thou. I mean when an archeologist finds a pot from ruins he looked at it and can tell what kind of civilization made it or how old it is or what kind of people existed back in that time.....And then when we looked at universe we can say, that it all just happened?. It just doesn't make sense. I mean every thing must got created. If we through bunch of woods in a jungle, It won't produce Table and Chairs by it self. Or same if we throw bunch of iron in a big box it won't produces Lexus by it self. I mean every thing we use have to be created by some one then why not universe? What is so difficult to understand here? It is all confusing when I heard two different kind of arguments. Any one maybe able to give some good example I hope.

 

[Markx]

Re: God's Glory is forever!

Originally posted by Sir. Loone
Hi! Teg! The 'proof' is all around you! And you your self! GOD is Greater then man's imagination can conceive! He did it, and the Bible is 100% historicaly accurate! And is wisedom above that of men! Yes! We all were created in His image and not 'slime' to monkey, monkey (anthaphoid) to man, by chance! Come on! There are far better explanations then that ! You have power in your tounge that can build up someone, or destroy him! No other animal or creator on Earth has that power! You are created just a little lower then the Angalic host! You are ,although fallen, was made in the image of GOD your Creator to the Glory of GOD, not as to just to recounstitute the ground, and be worm-food at death! But you have an immortal soul & spirit that will live forever somewhere in Heaven , where God who is 'Love' would have you! Are you know, the Hell that was prepared for the Devil and his 'fallen angels' demons, but orig. not for man, but the fall of man, you would have to chose in this life! GOD's Holy Word is a far better foundation for any sociaty to build on!

Look up! And see that the Creator is good! He gives you a life time to come to the truth of His Words of Truth!

Sir Loone. sorry no offense to you but your ignorance is amazing. How many people or how many time do we have to prove you that Bible is not 100% accurate. It is probably little more then 15% accurate and that is also because we try to make it accurate all along. If you don't believe me then read the Encylcopeida Of bible and read for your self. Form your so called trinity to Son of God all are add ons to make me more spicy. Sorry but seems like you need to get out and learn the truth.