Feminist teacher defends her prostitution

Repo Man · Aug 31, 2003

Well Pete, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it more. I enjoyed reading it when it was first published in 1993. And I like to review it from time to time. And I think many more people need to read it.

Amazon readers have given it 4 and 1/2 stars.

okinrus · Aug 31, 2003

Okinrus please explain why you compare a cocaine addiction to buying or selling sex?

1 Dangerous
2 Destroys families
3 Possible addiction

I understand you think it is your duty to protect people from themselves but in actuality ITS NOT!! You have your moral principles and others have their own. Strange how in the land of freedom everyone is busy trying to restrict their neighbors from behaviour that does not concern them.

One of my moral principles is to protect others more than myself. Do we want a culture where people stand by carelessly or do we want others to actually care for us?

Do you have any other suggestion for eradicating prostitution other than prision? Prison has not stopped the oldest profession from a continued existence.

Prison sentances have to be done on a case by basis. Anyways probation, fines, community service and job training would be good options.

It has been reported that during military exercises in Thailand marines were told that the country is 100% hiv positive and avoid the red light districts. After their shore leave it was noted that 75% of the men went ahead and procured sex anyway. So much for the warnings.

And this study was from where?

Xev · Aug 31, 2003

okinrus:

The worker makes a contract with the employer knowing full well the conditions in most cases.

This is because of labour laws (among other factors)

And why should the goverment
allow their people to go to unproductive trash because they chose to? Could these people then have to be drafted in the army? Isn't that a requirement for being a US citizen?

No.

While there are some self-evident rights, for the most part, your rights are granted to you by the goverment.

If this was true, they wouldn't be rights.

I obey my government (fairly well) because I still have a say in it. It protects my interests.
The second it fails to do so I have the right to alter or abolish it.

This is the way the founders of my country wanted things to be, not some fascist's paradise where every controlling fuckwit can infringe upon my rights at their leisure.

One of my moral principles is to protect others more than myself.

You controlling, egomaniacal fool. You have a right to do whatever you wish so long as you do not trespass unto another person's rights.
This is all you get, domineering little Jesusboy.

Do we want a culture where people stand by carelessly or do we want others to actually care for us?

Personally, I'd like them to go for me as far as I'd go for them - to defend my rights. You want a culture of oversocialized sheep, move to China - but even they are modernizing, so you might have problems there too.

Emotional harm done here is usually temporary. Drugs and prostitution cause emotional and physical harm.

Since when were you the great arbitrar of other people's choices?

Not only that, the woman has placed herself in a position where she could be abused or rape.

And throwing her onto the street, then yanking her back into jail from time to time while her clients, beloved sons of your precious Judeo-Christian patriarchy, get away scott free, so that she can face social stigma and prison rape, is humane?

You're so fucking humane, okinrus. Personally, I'd rather be buried to my neck and left to the ants than deal with humane people like you. At least the ants aren't hypocrites.

Repo Man · Aug 31, 2003

Okinrus, neither you nor anyone else have the "right" to tell me what I can ingest. If I, or anyone else, choose to throw our lives away by drinking Alcohol, smoking cigarets, or weed, or crack, or by huffing paint or snorting asbestos, that is none of your business.

Our bodies are not property of the state.

Our present drug laws are both stupid, and completely inconsistent. You can poison your body with Alcohol, but not Heroin or Cocaine? Abusing all 3 is stupid if you ask me, but it is not my place to make people live the way I think they should.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

Okinrus there are already penalties and jail terms for soliciting and it does not make a dent in the activity.

You say prostitution is dangerous? For whom? Most prostitutes carry and insist on condoms and what is more interesting is that they are MORE likely to practise safe sex than the teenage college student on spring break!

If it is an addiction that is still not your concern. You will not change anothers behaviour simply because you dislike it and are concerned; especially when you are dealing with a population that by and large does not care what you think of their actions.

How does it destroy families? Are you then also suggesting that a husband/father who has an outside affair is criminal? Shouldn't the criminality also extend itself to the mistress who has sex with a family man for no money?

You are not legislating a crime you are legislating sex! What exactly are you against anyway, having anonymous sex for money? Or just anonymous sex? If a guy pays a womans rent every month for the privilege of banging her would you feel better about it? What if he just purchased the hungry lass dinner and a new dress? Fuck all that! I say put the money on the dresser and pull down your pants

Let's call it what it is A TRADE! Not very romantic but hey!

The example I gave came from a study about sex trade workers in Bangkok. I will have to look for it and get back to you. The men were on leave from Cobra Gold, an annual military exercise in Asia.

Xev · Aug 31, 2003

And remember girls - it's bad if you peddle your ass for money. That makes you a whore.
It's good if you peddle your integrity for money - that makes you a wife.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

Hahahaha...Xev that was brilliant!

okinrus · Aug 31, 2003

Our bodies are not property of the state.

Brilliant, the perfect draft dodging scheme. Get high off whatever you want while your buddies die.

You say prostitution is dangerous? For whom? Most prostitutes carry and insist on condoms and what is more interesting is that they are MORE likely to practise safe sex than the teenage college student on spring break!

I believe condoms narrow the risk of std's to something like 5%. Just don't get upset when everyone has AIDs.

This is because of labour laws (among other factors)

I know some hispanics who know that they are working over 40 hours a week without overtime but do so anyways because of the other benifits.

Personally, I'd like them to go for me as far as I'd go for them - to defend my rights. You want a culture of oversocialized sheep, move to China - but even they are modernizing, so you might have problems there too.

Is it really that bad that you cannot make money off of sex? Your the one who accused me of treating woman like objects.

How does it destroy families? Are you then also suggesting that a husband/father who has an outside affair is criminal? Shouldn't the criminality also extend itself to the mistress who has sex with a family man for no money?

Yes, he would be a criminal but there are practical reasons to not have it enforce by law.

The example I gave came from a study about sex trade workers in Bangkok. I will have to look for it and get back to you. The men were on leave from Cobra Gold, an annual military exercise in Asia.

Thailand's an interesting place. A good example of why we have laws against prostitution.

And remember girls - it's bad if you peddle your ass for money. That makes you a whore. It's good if you peddle your integrity for money - that makes you a wife.

Integrity implies the abstance of peddling.

Repo Man · Aug 31, 2003

Good night, where to begin with your fractured logic. What exact draft would I be dodging? And beside that, the perfect draft dodge would be to pretend I was gay. After all, I'm sure that you of all people don't think they should be in the military.

The reason that we have laws against prostitution was that Christian hypocrite busybodies were much more in the drivers seat in the past than they are now. Nevada has legal brothels, and they are nothing like what goes on in Thailand.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

Okinrus you fail to see my point, legislation will not and has not contained the activity, Cobra Gold was just an example of that.

You can check this site for the results of condom use against hiv:

http://www.neahin.org/programs/reproductive/condoms.htm

http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modules/BARRIER/s2pg11.htm

Anyway, women who independently CHOOSE the sex trade industry for whatever their reasons are not sex objects. Objects don't make choices.

Integrity means honesty and prostitutes are honest peddlers.

I understand that you think prostitution is wrong so I suggest you never procure one. You do not have the moral high ground to try and legally force your convictions on a community that cares for your lifestyle as much as you do for theirs.

What I would like to see is the change where women (usually underaged and nonconsenting) in undeveloped countries are not forced into the situation by tradition, dire economic need or sold into the situation involuntarily. But when it comes to women who choose this lifestyle voluntairly for whatever their reasons then I say it is no ones business if they do.

okinrus · Aug 31, 2003

Lucy can you explain in more detail your moral system. From what I read I conclude that it's based upon two principles

1. Do not harm anyone else
2. Some set of personal morals that only apply to you.

When I look at it this scheme in more detail, the only way that we can know if something is harmful to an abstract someone is to apply it to ourselves. We know that stealing harmful, for example, because we've had stuft stolen from us and we know that lying is harmful because we've been lied to. This can all be applied abstractly by imagining someone stealing from us or lying to us. So the specialization into what is harmful implies that principle 1 is already based on your own personal morals and the set of personal morals is what we consider harmful to ourselves. However if you saw someone commiting harm to themselves, you'd have to stop them with some means so as not to contradict principle 1, but finding out what is harmful to themselves can only be based upon your own personal set of morals. My conclusion is that you have faith in the faithlessness of your own morals, which does not make too much sense. It's better to be truely honest. If you think that prostitution is bad for you, then suggest a way to stop prostitution. After all, Jail time is not the only solution.

okinrus · Aug 31, 2003

Also prostitution has been in the chrisitan tradition sort of. Thomas Aquianas thought that prostitution should be allowed to relieve sexual tension that might lead to more serious crimes such as rape. It was really the Calvin's followers who cracked down on prostitution.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

Okinrus I don't consider prostitution immoral. Like Swedishfish I have known women who relied on the trade for a variety of reasons. It is not anything I would deem wrong for myself if that is what I chose. Unlike yourself I do not link prostitution with chemical addictions or deem prostitution as fundamentally wrong.

You wrote: Also prostitution has been in the chrisitan tradition sort of. Thomas Aquianas thought that prostitution should be allowed to relieve sexual tension that might lead to more serious crimes such as rape. It was really the Calvin's followers who cracked down on prostitution.

And? What are you for it now because Thomas has given you permission?

okinrus · Aug 31, 2003

And? What are you for it now because Thomas has given you permission?

No, of course Thomas felt that prostitution was sinful.

Okinrus I don't consider prostitution immoral. Like Swedishfish I have known women who relied on the trade for a variety of reasons. It is not anything I would deem wrong for myself if that is what I chose. Unlike yourself I do not link prostitution with chemical addictions or deem prostitution as fundamentally wrong.

Then what's the problem with people who do consider it immoral passing laws restricting it? We have laws against stealing because the majority of the population thinks that it is immoral. Now if a married man goes to a prostitute is that immoral? If so, does the prostitute have a moral requisite of making sure that her customer is not married?

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

No Okinrus I do not find a married individual having an outside affair 'immoral'. I do not believe marriage to be a sanctified institution. People will remain faithful for only as long as they desire; forced monogamy is bullshit as far as I am concerned.

The problem with restricting prostitution is that it continues anyway but without any protection. To decriminalize the activity would mean utilizing police enforcement in a direction where they can do the most good instead of penalizing two people for having concensual sex. It also offers the women legal rights within their profession by eliminating the 'pimp', perhaps even containing the activity to certain red light districts, which means prostitution is safer.

When you steal from someone you deprive them of something and this is why it is criminal. Prostitution does not deprive anyone of anything. The man receives the service he payed for, the woman receives money for the service. So where is the criminality in this? Who is being deprived?

Xev · Aug 31, 2003

okinrus:

Brilliant, the perfect draft dodging scheme. Get high off whatever you want while your buddies die.

What the hell do you get this from?

I believe condoms narrow the risk of std's to something like 5%. Just don't get upset when everyone has AIDs.

How will everyone have aids, you hysterical fuck?

I know some hispanics who know that they are working over 40 hours a week without overtime but do so anyways because of the other benifits.

Uh, this has relevence somehow?

Is it really that bad that you cannot make money off of sex?

No. It's bad that misogynistic little slave moralists like you are forcing your sick ideology on decent people.

Your the one who accused me of treating woman like objects.

You are. Reducing a human to her sexuality is as vile as you are, okinrus.

Integrity implies the abstance of peddling.

No. It is possible to be honourable and to trade - there are honourable businesspeople.

It is not possible to be honourable if you trade your body and your emotions in order to have a pretty white dress and financial security.
You are one sick, hateful little boy. I daresay you'd not be so obsessed with the way some women arrange their sexlives if you had a sex life of your own.

Lucysnow:

People will remain faithful for only as long as they desire; forced monogamy is bullshit as far as I am concerned.

I disagree. Nobody forces men or women to marry. If you choose to be in a monogamous relationship and promise not to fuck anyone else, you are bound by your promise so long as you are bound by your relationship.

We shouldn't coddle those stupid enough to enter relationships that they can't handle.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Aug 31, 2003

To Xev who wrote:I disagree. Nobody forces men or women to marry. If you choose to be in a monogamous relationship and promise not to fuck anyone else, you are bound by your promise so long as you are bound by your relationship.

We shouldn't coddle those stupid enough to enter relationships that they can't handle.

I see your point. I just don't understand how anyone can expect anyone to promise tht they will remain faithful forever and a day. I am sure everyone believes their word at the time given...most are not honest enough to admit to their partners that their love has waned or are sexually peaked by another.

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

I take marriage so seriously that I have avoided it precisely because I did not think I could make such a promise of life-time fidelity. I am not saying it is not possible I just have yet to meet someone who inspires such an oath.

okinrus · Sep 1, 2003

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

We could extend adultry to cheating in premarital relationships. The prostitute does not care if it's a married man or a man with a significant other --- it doesn't matter as long as the bills are green. And there is no way that the prostitute could obtain such information anyways. So while the prostitute is not directly reponsible for the crime, she is giving the man a loaded gun.

Xev I thought nothing was truely good or evil? Does this extend to me as well? If it does, then there is a possibility that you are vile and evil and you are merely seeing a reflection.

Mrs.Lucysnow · Sep 1, 2003

Yes Okinrus but a married man can just as easily go pick up a woman at a bar and not tell her he is married and get laid anyway. There is no 'loaded gun'! It makes no difference to the prostitute if her customer is married or not because it is none of her business.

PS: I think Xev is probably the least 'vile' or 'evil' of any of us here.

Xev · Sep 1, 2003

okinrus:

So while the prostitute is not directly reponsible for the crime, she is giving the man a loaded gun.

He has no free will? He is incapable of not deciding to purchase sex?
In any case, if it was such a great relationship he wouldn't be off paying to get laid, eh?

Xev I thought nothing was truely good or evil?

Huh?

If it does, then there is a possibility that you are vile and evil and you are merely seeing a reflection.

Do I despise an entire gender just because I am a stupid little Catholic and think that women are dirty? No.
Do I try to force other people's personal lives to conform to my standards? No.
Do I make war upon the principles my country was founded on? No.
Do I lack any sense of honour or decency? No.
Am I a fascist? No.
Am I servile? No.

So no, I'm not seeing a reflection okinrus.

Lucysnow:

I see your point. I just don't understand how anyone can expect anyone to promise tht they will remain faithful forever and a day. I am sure everyone believes their word at the time given...most are not honest enough to admit to their partners that their love has waned or are sexually peaked by another.

Yup. And most give their word too freely. I more prefer the Nietzschen ideal of someone whose "word is gold and who always does more than he promises".

To be that person means never giving your word unless you are sure that you agree with it.

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

This is true. Which goes back to what I said at the top of my post: if a man is paying for sex, the relationship is either dysfunctional or open (i.e he likes something his wife doesn't, she doesn't want to partake but she doesn't want her man to be unsatisfied)