Female Genital Mutilation

[Baron Max]

i dont want to get on with people who believ mutilating female genitalia is good. are we clear?

Where did I ever say that I believed that the mutilation was good?? Please show me.

Baron Max

 

[duendy]

Where did I ever say that I believed that the mutilation was good?? Please show me.

Baron Max

sheeesh ....try this. say yo have a freind who batters his partner. yes? now...are you. gonna mind your own business and allow them to do what they do, OR are you gonna speak out about it which could mean you losing your friendship?...ie., would you just want to get along with your frien like you would wanna get along with people who want to mutilate othrs' genitalia?

 

[Baron Max]

sheeesh ....try this. say yo have a freind who batters his partner. yes? now...are you. gonna mind your own business and allow them to do what they do, OR are you gonna speak out about it which could mean you losing your friendship?

If my friend's partner is a willing participant, then everything is fine with me. I know of many masochists who partner with sadists for fun n' games on a regular basis ...it's against the law in most places, but they do it anyway.

The women in Africa willingly participate in the rituals because it's their culture to do so. Who are we to interfere with their cultural rituals? There are tribes in both Africa and in South America who "tatoo" their faces in what most would term "horrible scaring", but it's their culture, their way and they do it willingly. Are you going to try to force them to change? If not, why not?

And when you finish forcing those people to change their culture, who's next on your list? What other culture don't you like? Are you going to change every culture on Earth to conform to your ideas of right n' wrong?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Baron:

Okay ...ye're right ....and that's perfect justification for attacking Iraq and getting rid of the Saddam regime!

It's a little more complicated than that, but I know you're not one for subtleties or overcomplication, so in essence, yes.

Oppression??? Do tell. Cutting the female's pussy out is cultural tradition, James, and has been for a gazillion years ...AND, most importantly, many/most of the young girls submit to it willingly and voluntarily.

I disagree. The young girls aren't of an age where they can make a free, informed choice in the matter.

I have no problem with FGM if it is consented to freely by a girl of age 18, say.

See?

Oppression? By whose definition?

Lots of people. I could mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights again, but you don't believe in it.

 

[duendy]

If my friend's partner is a willing participant, then everything is fine with me. I know of many masochists who partner with sadists for fun n' games on a regular basis ...it's against the law in most places, but they do it anyway.

me:::::::dear god you've got a prepared anser for every fuker init?
i didn't SAYa couple into S&M. of course tats teir business. i mant--and you surely knowe it, a woman who is NOT enoying getting battered. it can happen to men too!

The women in Africa willingly participate in the rituals because it's their culture to do so. Who are we to interfere with their cultural rituals? There are tribes in both Africa and in South America who "tatoo" their faces in what most would term "horrible scaring", but it's their culture, their way and they do it willingly. Are you going to try to force them to change? If not, why not?

And when you finish forcing those people to change their culture, who's next on your list? What other culture don't you like? Are you going to change every culture on Earth to conform to your ideas of right n' wrong?

Baron Max

i am also not on about friggin tatoos. i am on about what this thread is about. pay attention you beligerent.......

 

[Baron Max]

The young girls aren't of an age where they can make a free, informed choice in the matter. ..... I have no problem with FGM if it is consented to freely by a girl of age 18, say.

But, James, as I understand the practice, it's done on females just prior to their marriage and just prior to becoming mothers! Surely that must be considered as that culture's "age of consent"???

And besides, just who is to say, who is the all-knowing authority on the age of a person relative to the ability to make free decisions? I.e., you say a young girl of 18 would be the proper age, yet 17.9 would not? ...16.9 would not? (I believe that in England, it's 16, isn't it? Perhaps we should invade England and force them to change their laws???)

And again, who are WE to make that determination for OTHER cultures of the world? And even our own children can "mutilate" their bodies with piercings and tatoos when they're UNDER the age of consent. Hmm, we can't even control our own childrens' mutilations, can we?

I could mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights again, but you don't believe in it.

Sure I "believe" in it! In fact, I believe in it so strongly that I think the nations who've agreed to and signed it should take up weapons and invade, conquer and force all nations of the world to abide by those agreements! Do you "believe" in it that strongly, James?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Baron Max:

But, James, as I understand the practice, it's done on females just prior to their marriage and just prior to becoming mothers! Surely that must be considered as that culture's "age of consent"???

This may be a cultural tradition, but that doesn't make it morally right. As I said, the question should be whether these girls are of sufficient maturity to make a free, informed choice.

And besides, just who is to say, who is the all-knowing authority on the age of a person relative to the ability to make free decisions? I.e., you say a young girl of 18 would be the proper age, yet 17.9 would not? ...16.9 would not? (I believe that in England, it's 16, isn't it? Perhaps we should invade England and force them to change their laws???)

Ideally, this should be decided on an individual basis. However, since that is completely impractical, it is usual to draw a line at an age where people, on average, have the necessary capacities.

And again, who are WE to make that determination for OTHER cultures of the world? And even our own children can "mutilate" their bodies with piercings and tatoos when they're UNDER the age of consent. Hmm, we can't even control our own childrens' mutilations, can we?

In most places, children have to get parental consent to mutilate their bodies. If they do not, it is illegal.

Sure I "believe" in it! In fact, I believe in it so strongly that I think the nations who've agreed to and signed it should take up weapons and invade, conquer and force all nations of the world to abide by those agreements! Do you "believe" in it that strongly, James?

Yes, but I disagree completely with your proposed force-of-arms approach to "enforcement".

 

[Baron Max]

This may be a cultural tradition, but that doesn't make it morally right.

And thus we've come full circle back to the ONLY stance that people like you can take ....morality! And just who are YOU to make such decisions/judgements on the "morality" of others? ...which is an issue that has been discussed ad nauseum since humans began to walk upright on the African plains, with no conclusions!

...but I disagree completely with your proposed force-of-arms approach to "enforcement".

Well, if you can't make people do what you say, then perhaps you shouldn't say it?! And is telling people what they should and shouldn't do a form of "bullying"? Surely you, of all people, wouldn't approve of such tactics.

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Baron Max:

And thus we've come full circle back to the ONLY stance that people like you can take ....morality! And just who are YOU to make such decisions/judgements on the "morality" of others?

Everybody makes judgments on the morality of others, all the time. I'm as entitled to have my say as anybody is.

Well, if you can't make people do what you say, then perhaps you shouldn't say it?!

That's the same line you always run. You assume that the only way to change somebody's behaviour is by force. You are wrong.

And is telling people what they should and shouldn't do a form of "bullying"?

No. It is encouragement to think. As you said, I'm not forcing people to change.

 

[Bells]

But, James, as I understand the practice, it's done on females just prior to their marriage and just prior to becoming mothers! Surely that must be considered as that culture's "age of consent"???

In many cultures where female genital mutilation occurs, the girls are yet to reach puberty. As with male genital mutilation when boys are circumcised, many cultures do it when the girls are still very young. In many places, it is done with anything sharp at hand, including lids of tin cans, pieces of glass, etc.

And again, who are WE to make that determination for OTHER cultures of the world? And even our own children can "mutilate" their bodies with piercings and tatoos when they're UNDER the age of consent. Hmm, we can't even control our own childrens' mutilations, can we?

We make such determinations all the time. We can call it morally wrong and unjust to violate the girl's sexual organs, but the practice continues. What you have yet to realise Baron is that these girls do not have a choice in what is done to their bodies. It is their parents and their community who decide that they are to have their clitoris removed and their vagina's sewn shut. The result can be catastrophic as when the girl begins to menstruate, the tiny hole left behind for that purpose may not be big enough. Not to mention the high risk of infection can also lead to infertility or even death. It is not the children who consent to the genital mutilation, but their parents.

Sure I "believe" in it! In fact, I believe in it so strongly that I think the nations who've agreed to and signed it should take up weapons and invade, conquer and force all nations of the world to abide by those agreements! Do you "believe" in it that strongly, James?

I'd think education would be the key to prevent the future generations from continuing the practice, don't you?

And just who are YOU to make such decisions/judgements on the "morality" of others?

The same question could be asked on just who are YOU to support the invasion of other countries to suit a political need. Surely you could not support the genital mutilation of any child? Or are you the type of person to turn a blind eye because it does not affect you in any way.

 

[Hapsburg]

Man, fuck both of ya'll and your yankee northerner morals.
If these culture practice this, then they have a natural human right, fuck politics, to do that.

 

[duendy]

Man, fuck both of ya'll and your yankee northerner morals.
If these culture practice this, then they have a natural human right, fuck politics, to do that.

well that attitude sits perfectly well wit someone who agrees with mutilation...yeah!

i am not going round in circles wit this debat no more. it is a farce abd disrespects the ACTUALITY of this barbarity. you here wo agree wit te mutilation of young girls sexual parts, shame on you. you hafvenot one ounce of inteligence, humanity, or compassion. you harp on about the 'human right' of othe cultures being allowed to mutilate, yet NOT the HUMA rights of the ones being mutilated .......you then ay some WANT it? well some kids here--more and more want to self-mutilate. its called self-harm. so what ou do if a child o yours does that. do you say its fine? no, you would try and encourage her NOT to mutilate her body....SURELY?

so that's my final speech.

 

[Nysse]

you here wo agree wit te mutilation of young girls sexual parts, shame on you. you hafvenot one ounce of inteligence, humanity, or compassion.

Well, that's not very fair, Duendy. :bugeye:
Just because someone does not agree with your opinions does not mean they lack any of those things, they merely see it from a different angle.
I agree with genital mutilation under the right circumstances, and I know I have at least a little humanity and compassion, even if I don’t have much intelligence.

.......you then ay some WANT it?

But obviously some do want it!

so what ou do if a child o yours does that. do you say its fine? no, you would try and encourage her NOT to mutilate her body....SURELY?

Not necessarily.

 

[duendy]

Well, that's not very fair, Duendy. :bugeye:
Just because someone does not agree with your opinions does not mean they lack any of those things, they merely see it from a different angle.
I agree with genital mutilation under the right circumstances, and I know I have at least a little humanity and compassion, even if I don’t have much intelligence.



But obviously some do want it!



Not necessarily.

would you agree i cut your tongue out?

why not?

give me an elborate answer please?

i want an answer for why if you would want it now?
and if you would have wanted it to happen when you were 6.

 

[Baron Max]

We make such determinations all the time. We can call it morally wrong and unjust to...

And such determinations has led the human wars and conflicts, and has been the cause of the death of millions/billions, since the beginning of human history .....and yet you support it?

I'd think education would be the key to prevent the future generations from continuing the practice, don't you?

Prevent the future cultural practices? Educate them to the western cultural ways/methods? Try to change their way of life just because you don't agree with it? How would you like it if other groups of people tried to change YOUR way of life, your ideas of living, by "educating" you to either own ways/methods?

What happened to the idea of tolerance for all things that are different? What happened to the idea of "live and let live"? What happened to the idea of keeping your nose out of other people's business?

The same question could be asked on just who are YOU to support the invasion of other countries to suit a political need.

But that's not much different to the ideas that you support in your post above! Oh, sure, you make the distinction between military might, and "educational" might, but isn't it the same basic principle? I.e., if you had the power to change their practice of genital mutilation, wouldn't you do it? And is that so much different to forcing that via other means?

I keep wondering what else y'all don't like in the life of others on the planet ...that you want to change? Where does it stop? Or is it that you won't stop until all people, all over the world, are just exactly like you?

Baron Max

 

[Nysse]

Oh, please tell me we are not going to go through this again, Duendy... :bugeye:

would you agree i cut your tongue out?

If I desired my tongue be cut out, I would let you do it, sure.

why not?

Why would I not want it cut out?
Well, because I quite like my tongue how it is. But, that is merely my personal view. Someone might very well want to be rid of their tongue. And who are we to stop them?
Personal preferences, that’s all.

i want an answer for why if you would want it now?

Why? If I would want it done now?
Well, I don’t know why I would. I don’t know why someone else would, either. How could I if I am not the sort to have it done? I suppose it would depend on how I thought it would benefit me, and how I was feeling. You could ask exactly the same question as to why I pierced, or “mutilated”, my tongue, but we have already “discussed” the whole Body Modification thing.

and if you would have wanted it to happen when you were 6.

I’m not sure, maybe I would have, if I was the sort of person who had the desire for it.
I have already said I only agree with it when the person whom it is being done to knows the consequences and all the facts, and has strongly agreed to get it done.

Duendy, have you ever heard of Apotemnophilia? Someone wanting one or two limbs removed? Would you try and stop them from getting their limbs removed because you thought it wrong? Try and stop them from being happy and comfortable within their bodies? I saw a program on certain people who had had their limbs removed because of this, and they were happy with themselves after the operation. Is that so wrong because it is not conventional or natural?

I said it before, if we find nothing wrong with women getting breast implants because they dislike their breasts, what is so wrong with getting your genitals modified to please you? If you find a part of your body so displeasing and want it changed, why do people find the need to force their ideals and opinions on you because they don’t agree, or understand?
Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is right, normal, or natural, for a person to feel about their bodies, or want done to them?

 

[Bells]

And such determinations has led the human wars and conflicts, and has been the cause of the death of millions/billions, since the beginning of human history .....and yet you support it?

As individuals, we are allowed to agee and disagree with practices of other countries and cultures. Surely you're not saying that you agree with what everybody does in the world?

Prevent the future cultural practices? Educate them to the western cultural ways/methods? Try to change their way of life just because you don't agree with it? How would you like it if other groups of people tried to change YOUR way of life, your ideas of living, by "educating" you to either own ways/methods?

I think it is more a case of supporting and helping the women who have suffered through genital mutilation and who are now speaking out against it. It is those women who have gone through genital mutilation who are at the forefront of trying to change said cultural practice. They are doing everything they can to educate their own culture against the practice and personally I think these women should be applauded and helped in everyway because they face opposition from their male dominated cultures and families and some even face threats of violence and death in protesting against what was done to their bodies as young girls. I think in helping these women and supporting them in their plight and in trying to educate the women in their families and community is a good idea. I don't advocate invading them and enforcing our rules, etc. I do however support the women from those cultures who are trying to change this cultural practice.

What happened to the idea of tolerance for all things that are different? What happened to the idea of "live and let live"? What happened to the idea of keeping your nose out of other people's business?

I'll keep this little quote of yours in mind to remind you of it when you start ranting and raving about homosexuals, women, religions and liberals.

Oh, sure, you make the distinction between military might, and "educational" might, but isn't it the same basic principle? I.e., if you had the power to change their practice of genital mutilation, wouldn't you do it? And is that so much different to forcing that via other means?

You can only educate people who wish to be educated. I don't support forcing Western culture on these women. I do however support helping the women from these cultures who are attempting to stop the practice in their own way.

I keep wondering what else y'all don't like in the life of others on the planet ...that you want to change? Where does it stop? Or is it that you won't stop until all people, all over the world, are just exactly like you?

I personally don't like child abusers, spousal abusers, anti-gun control NRA members, etc. And would I want everyone to be just like me? LOL! The way you carry on, you expect everyone to agree and be just like YOU. Diversity is vital. But in being diverse, we must also recognise that some practices are dangerous and we should support and help the people who have suffered under these practices and want to change it, to do so. But what am I saying. You're quite happy to be oblivious as long as you can sit on your veranda with your shotgun in your lap.

 

[Baron Max]

As individuals, we are allowed to agee and disagree with practices of other countries and cultures. Surely you're not saying that you agree with what everybody does in the world?

No, but where it doesn't affect me or my nation directly, then I do my damnedest to ignore it. And African tribes cutting the pussy out of a few women sure as hell doesn't affect me or my nation.

I think it is more a case of supporting and helping the women who have suffered through genital mutilation and who are now speaking out against it. It is those women who have gone through genital mutilation who are at the forefront of trying to change said cultural practice.

Okay ...how many of them? How many have undergone the "surgery" versus the number who are speaking out against it? If it's only a very few, which is what I understand, then ye're backing those few against all of the other women in that tribe or nation or whatever the fuck it is?

I do however support the women from those cultures who are trying to change this cultural practice.

How are you supporting them? You mean with just some sentimental words and rabid condemnation of the practice? If you could, would you forcefully stop the practice?

Part of the problem that I see is that simple ideal of "helping" others is just another way of trying to force our viewpoints and our ideals onto others. I don't like that, because I don't like others doing that to me. Do you? Seemingly you approve of such tactics! And that worries me.

Along with another topic here at sciforums: How would you like it if China were to conquer the world and force you to stop having babies? And worse, what if they took your child as soon as it was old enough, and put it to work in a factory sewing uniforms for the Chinese army?

You seem to approve the tactics when it suites you, but I'm betting you wouldn't like the shoe on the other foot!

You're quite happy to be oblivious as long as you can sit on your veranda with your shotgun in your lap.

Perhaps that's what's wrong ....not enough people in the world are doing just that! Instead of minding their own business, their sticking their noses into the business of everyone else ......sometimes even when it doesn't even affect them one way or the other.

Perhaps we need more shotguns and more verandas in the world?

Baron Max

 

[emtkooter]

The doo-gooder western nations should get together a coalition and invade those countries and FORCE them to quit doin' whatever it is that we don't like!!! Dammit, I'm tired of other nations gettin' to do anything they want ....just who the fuck do they think they are?

Invade, take over, force those nations and all cultures of the world to be westernized or suffer the consequences!!

Baron Max

This has nothing to do with this topic and for that I'm sorry. But I must say, I'm new to this site and have seen several of baron's posts. By golly, I think I've fallen in love with this crazy ass. I swear we share the same brain, baron is just a little better with the words. I LOVE YOU BARON!!!! haha.

 

[emtkooter]

Ok, now that I actually read through most of the thread, there is something I would like to say.

I don't claim to know much about the mutilations (nor much of anything else for that matter), but I don't see much difference between this and the circumcision of infant boys. And before you people jump all over this, I'm not talking about the physical differences. I know a boy has a penis and a girl doesn't. Grow up.

At a very young age, and certainly without my consent, I was circumcised. Do I think it's wrong; NO! It's part of my culture, and I was raised being told that it is acceptable. You don't hear Duendy or Bells speaking out against this and I'm willing to bet it's because they never thought about it. And do you know why I believe they never thought of it? Because it's part of thier culture. It's not shocking to thier conscious.

I have not yet perfected the art of quoting, but I need to quote Bells. Bells was replying to a post made by Baron and he said, "What you have yet to realise Baron is that these girls do not have a choice in what is done to their bodies. It is their parents and their community who decide..."

I'm feeling somewhat left out here Bells. You speak out so adamantly for these poor, poor girls who are being mutilated without thier consent. Well what about me? Why aren't you speaking out for me because a sharp knife of some sort was taken to my penis before I hit puberty. Before I hit the age of consent. Against my will. I guarntee you I did not sign up for the procedure! It was decided by my parents and thier decision was influenced by the community they belonged to.

So in an attempt to stop beating the dead horse, it comes down to....you guessed it....CULTURE!! CULTURE is a wonderful thing.

Is it something that I would want done to my daughter/wife/sister or friend? Of course not. But that's because of where I was raised. If I were raised where this practice takes place, then I would have said Yes!

I know none of this is going to change your mind and your going to give me some retort about it being immoral. And to that I ask you, who are you to say what is moral and what is not?

I look forward to your response, as I'm guessing it will be a review session of everything else you've already said.

-Kooter