Female Genital Mutilation: An Islamic Practice

[SkinWalker]

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. The practice is older than the hills in the region. There is also evidence that it may have developed independently in Australian aborigines and some other primitive cultures. Male circumcision is still carried out for reasons of hygiene even in nonreligious societies.

Your ifs are groundless and based on nothing more than uneducated bigotry.

Sam, you've demonstrated that you will go on and on spamming the board with pro-islamic religious cult defense to the end, so I won't pretend that I can keep up with your spam. I will, however, point out that you are demonstrably ignorant of the topic, though perhaps you will be educated as the thread develops. I'm sure you'll find a few sources here and there as you look into it. But this is a phenomenon that I studied a bit.

I'm not sure what it is, specifically, that you're arguing against here, since you haven't exactly been clear (true to your form when you debate... you seek argument not facts or education).

But if you're contention is that the practice isn't one supported by the cult of islam, then you are completely and utterly wrong. Indeed, I'll quote the Muslim Womens' League:

Religious leaders in many of the communities that practice FGM also support the custom, linking the moral benefits listed above [cleanliness, chastity and minimizing the sexual appetite of women, thus reducing the likelihood that they will bring shame on themselves or their families through sexual indiscretions] to religion; therefore, a devoted believer who wants to carry out religious duties to her or his utmost is convinced that FGM is associated with righteousness and purity, both valued by all religions…

And, according to :

According to this narration, the circumciser woman was one of a group of women who had immigrated with Muhammad. Having seen her, Muhammad asked her if she kept practicing her profession. She answered affirmatively adding: "unless it is forbidden and you order me to stop doing it." Muhammad replied: "Yes, it is allowed. Come closer so I can teach you: if you cut, do not overdo it (la tanhiki), because it brings more radiance to the face (ashraq) and it is more pleasant (ahza) for the husband

I haven't accessed the links in over two years, but perhaps they're still active. I'll include them in the references.

References:

Abu-Sahlieh, Sami A. Aldeed (2005) Muslims' Genitalia in the Hands of the Clergy: Religious Arguments about Male and Female Circumcision 1998 [accessed 4/8/2005]. Available from http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/Gentalia.htm.

Muslim Women's League (2005). Female Genital Mutilation. Muslim Women's League 1999 [accessed 4/8/2005]. Available from http://mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/fgm.html.

 

[S.A.M.]

You're quoting religious leaders (in Islam there are no religious leaders, except perhaps in Iran) and oral traditions collected 100 years after Mohammed died, from a translation of a translation to support your hypothesis?

People use this kind of reasoning to take advantage of the ignorant. If it was Islamic, you'd also find it in the educated, like male circumcision, which is required for Muslim men.

And, your links don't work.

Please educate me how your Bedouin information is more current than that on the Egyptians and Pitta-Patta aborigines.

 

[S.A.M.]

Some more interesting background:

The history of female circumcision, also known as female genital mutilation (FGM), has been traced back as far as the 2nd century BC, when a geographer, Agatharchides of Cnidus, wrote about female circumcision as it occurred among tribes residing on the western coast of the Red Sea (now modern-day Egypt). Based on current geographic locations of FGM, the practices seems to have originated in Egypt and has spread south and west.

Origins
Some believe that female circumcision was rooted in the Pharaonic belief in the bisexuality of the gods. According to this belief, mortals reflected this trait of the gods; every individual possessed both a male and a female soul. The feminine soul of the man was located in the prepuce of the penis; the masculine soul of the woman was located in the clitoris. For healthy gender development, the female soul had to be excised from the man and the male soul from the woman. Circumcision was thus essential for boys to become men and girls to become women.
Prior to the rise of Islam, Egyptians once raided territories to the south for slaves, and Sudanic slaves were exported to areas along the Persian Gulf. Reports from the 15th and 16th centuries suggest that female slaves were sold at a higher price if they were ''sewn up" in a way that made them unable to give birth. After the region converted to Islam, this practice was no longer possible because Islam prohibits Muslims from enslaving others of their own religious beliefs.


So why does the practice of female circumcision linger in so many countries?

It is very difficult to understand why female circumcision remains if it was supposed to fade out of practice once Egypt converted to Islam, but the best explanation is that the practice continues because it is considered a tradition. Few individuals who practice female circumcision are aware of the early mythology, but several do stereotype uncircumcised girls as more masculine.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ehtoddch/politics/historyfgm.html

References
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ehtoddch/politics/references.html

 

[Medicine*Woman]

hi MW, how are you?

MW, do you agree that FGM is a form of slavery, 3rd-class status, a mind-control method (via aversion therapy to sex) & the objectification of women?

*************
M*W: Great to hear from you!

Yes, I agree that FGM, also called "female circumcision" and "female castration," and "female clitoraldectomy." It is the most barbaric form of female slavery and child abuse. It has always been my stance that females were the first slaves. In fact, many of these young girls die from infections that arise from the use of non-sterile surgical objects like sharpened rocks, bones and rusty metals. Here is an article based on Muslim thoughts about FGM.

http://www.islamic-world.net/sister/h6.htm

 

[DiamondHearts]

Sam, you've demonstrated that you will go on and on spamming the board with pro-islamic religious cult defense to the end, so I won't pretend that I can keep up with your spam. I will, however, point out that you are demonstrably ignorant of the topic, though perhaps you will be educated as the thread develops. I'm sure you'll find a few sources here and there as you look into it. But this is a phenomenon that I studied a bit.

Being Muslims, we have the right to defend unfair portrayals of our religion. Apparently your studies didn't go far enough, this practice is forbidden in Islam and I will prove it.

I'm not sure what it is, specifically, that you're arguing against here, since you haven't exactly been clear (true to your form when you debate... you seek argument not facts or education).

Personal attacks from a moderator. How disturbing.

But if you're contention is that the practice isn't one supported by the cult of islam, then you are completely and utterly wrong. Indeed, I'll quote the Muslim Womens' League:

And what exactly is the Muslim Womens' League? Are they a reliable source to use to make a generalization against Islam?

Also the hadith you quoted is da'eef which means weak. The fiqh scholars have deemed this hadith as fabricated.

Please study harder.

As for the rest of the people on this forum who wish to provide proof it is acceptable in Islam. Provide a clear fatwa from a major scholar, preferably from either Al Azhar or Madinah University.

Being a Muslim, I have studied this and asked many of my teachers who have deemed this act haram (unlawful) in Islam.

 

[pjdude1219]

there is nothing in the quran about this it had nothing to do with islam it was practiced before islam and when islam entered areas people kept on doing it

 

[SkinWalker]

Those that adhere to Islamic superstition may not want to accept that FGM is an Islamic cultural tradition, but they can do little to rebuke it, particularly since there is so much written within Islamic literature about it. I fixed the link in my previous post by adding a link from the Internet Archive, but I'll re-link the citations here as well.

Abu-Sahlieh is actually arguing against the notion that FGM or even male circumcision is necessary under Islam and cites several reasons why. But he also acknowledges the reasons that Islam has embraced circumcision to date, a very objective and reasoned process of speaking out against it -unlike several of those that adhere to Islamic superstition here.

Here are some additional quotes from the paper I cited in my previous post here, which demonstrate the Islamic embracement of FGM. I'll include Abu-Sahlieh's original citations:

Professor Al-Adawi from Al-Azhar said that female circumcision is makrumah, that is helps the woman "to remain shy and virtuous. In the Orient, where the climate is hot, a girl gets easily aroused if she is not circumcised. It makes her shameless and prey to her sexual instincts, except those to whom God shows compassion"[Adawi: Khitan al-banat, pp. 97-98.].


Judge Arnus said that female circumcision diminishes sexual instinct which, if not kept in control, reduces the person to the condition of an animal, but if this sexual instinct does not exist, then circumcision reduces her to a lifeless state. He favors moderation and notes that intact men and women have, more often than not, a "one track mind"[Arnus: Khitan al-banat, pp. 93-94].


Salim, Chairman of the Muslim Supreme Court (abolished in 1955), reiterates that female circumcision is a makru�mah, a meritorious action, that the woman is under no obligation to submit to, but preferably she should. He adds that circumcision protects girls from infection, swelling of her external genitalia and from strong psychic reactions, and sexual excitement which, if repressed, lead to neurosis or, if unleashed, lead to the path of vice. This happens especially during youth, when hormones of reproduction are at their peak. Salim goes on to describe this circumcision. The procedure consists of cutting off the bulging part of the clitoris which is out of the hood "so as not to become a cause of arousal while the girl is moving, rubbing against her clothing, riding animals, etc... Thus its name khafd: to lower the level"[Salim: Khitan al-banat, pp. 81-82].


Jad-al-Haq (died 1996), Great Sheik of Al-Azhar, adds that our times call for female circumcision "because of mixing of the sexes at pu�blic gatherings. If the girl is not circumcised, she subjects herself to multiple causes of excitation leading her to vice and perdition in a depraved society"[Jad-al-Haq: Khitan al-banat, in Al-fatawi al-islamiyyah, vol. 9, 1983, p. 3124].

In another paper, Abu-Sahlieh (2002) cites data that supports the assertion that FGM is primarily propagated by Muslim cults, though it is also a travisty committed by Jewish and Christian cults to a much lesser degree.

Annually, about 15 millions of people are mutilated, thirteen millions are boys and two millions are girls. With each heartbeat, a child passes under the knife[1].

Female circumcision was and continues to be practiced in the five continents by Muslims, Christians, Jews, animists and atheists. But it is especially common in 28 countries, mainly African and Muslim[2]. The Muslims are therefore the principal religious group that practice male and female circumcision. In Egypt, 97% of women are circumcised: 99.5% in the countryside and 94% in urban areas[3].

Like DiamondHearts mentioned, the hadith quoted by the Muslim Women's League is a weak hadith, and the League can be quoted, "[t]his is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable..."

The MWL isn't arguing that Islam is wrong since it justifies FGM. Its arguing that Islam is right and those that use weak hadiths and vague koranic references are wrong. I cited the work to demonstrate that there are those that use Islam as an excuse to practice FGM.

Whether members of Islamic cults chose to admit it or not, their cult is a source of attrocity. Religious nutters in Islam are using Islam to justify torturing young girls. It is definitely *not* a practice with Islamic origin when examined closely, but a practice that is justified by many -not just a few- who call themselves Muslim.

References:

Abu-Sahlieh, Sami A. Aldeeb (2002). Male and Female Circumcision: the Myth of the Difference. [accessed 6/15/2007] www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/myth.htm [via Internet Archive].

Abu-Sahlieh, Sami A. Aldeed (2005) Muslims' Genitalia in the Hands of the Clergy: Religious Arguments about Male and Female Circumcision 1998 [accessed 4/8/2005]. Available from http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/Gentalia.htm [via Internet Archive].

Muslim Women's League (1999). Female Genital Mutilation. Muslim Women's League 1999 [accessed 6/13/2007]. Available from http://mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/fgm.html.

References [from Abu-Sahlieh]:

Adawi, Abd-al-Rahman: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 97-98.

Arnus, Mahmud: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 91-94.

Salim, Muhammad Ibrahim: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 81-82.

Jad-al-Haq, Jad-al-Haq Ali: Khitan al-banat, in: Al-fatawi al-islamiyyah min dar al-ifta' al-masriyyah, Wazarat al-awqaf, Cairo, vol. 9, 1983, pp. 3119-3125.

[1] Ad hoc working group of international experts on violations of genital mutilation, POB 197, Southfields, New York 10975, USA.

[2] Mutilations sexuelles f'minines: dossier d'information, WHO, Geneva (1994); Toubia, Nahid; Izett, S: Female genital mutilation, an overview, WHO, Geneva, 1998.

[3] Egypt Demographic and Health Survey 1995, National Population Council, Cairo, September 1996; Le Monde, 26 June 1997, p. 3.

 

[pjdude1219]

Those that adhere to Islamic superstition may not want to accept that FGM is an Islamic cultural tradition, but they can do little to rebuke it, particularly since there is so much written within Islamic literature about it. I fixed the link in my previous post by adding a link from the Internet Archive, but I'll re-link the citations here as well.

Abu-Sahlieh is actually arguing against the notion that FGM or even male circumcision is necessary under Islam and cites several reasons why. But he also acknowledges the reasons that Islam has embraced circumcision to date, a very objective and reasoned process of speaking out against it -unlike several of those that adhere to Islamic superstition here.

Here are some additional quotes from the paper I cited in my previous post here, which demonstrate the Islamic embracement of FGM. I'll include Abu-Sahlieh's original citations:



In another paper, Abu-Sahlieh (2002) cites data that supports the assertion that FGM is primarily propagated by Muslim cults, though it is also a travisty committed by Jewish and Christian cults to a much lesser degree.



Like DiamondHearts mentioned, the hadith quoted by the Muslim Women's League is a weak hadith, and the League can be quoted, "[t]his is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable..."

The MWL isn't arguing that Islam is wrong since it justifies FGM. Its arguing that Islam is right and those that use weak hadiths and vague koranic references are wrong. I cited the work to demonstrate that there are those that use Islam as an excuse to practice FGM.

Whether members of Islamic cults chose to admit it or not, their cult is a source of attrocity. Religious nutters in Islam are using Islam to justify torturing young girls. It is definitely *not* a practice with Islamic origin when examined closely, but a practice that is justified by many -not just a few- who call themselves Muslim.

References:

Abu-Sahlieh, Sami A. Aldeeb (2002). Male and Female Circumcision: the Myth of the Difference. [accessed 6/15/2007] www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/myth.htm [via Internet Archive].

Abu-Sahlieh, Sami A. Aldeed (2005) Muslims' Genitalia in the Hands of the Clergy: Religious Arguments about Male and Female Circumcision 1998 [accessed 4/8/2005]. Available from http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/Gentalia.htm [via Internet Archive].

Muslim Women's League (1999). Female Genital Mutilation. Muslim Women's League 1999 [accessed 6/13/2007]. Available from http://mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/fgm.html.

References [from Abu-Sahlieh]:

Adawi, Abd-al-Rahman: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 97-98.

Arnus, Mahmud: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 91-94.

Salim, Muhammad Ibrahim: Khitan al-banat, in: Abd-al-Raziq, Abu-Bakr: Al-khitan, ra'y al-din wal-'ilm fi khitan al-awlad wal-banat, Dar Al-i'tisam, Cairo, 1989, pp. 81-82.

Jad-al-Haq, Jad-al-Haq Ali: Khitan al-banat, in: Al-fatawi al-islamiyyah min dar al-ifta' al-masriyyah, Wazarat al-awqaf, Cairo, vol. 9, 1983, pp. 3119-3125.

[1] Ad hoc working group of international experts on violations of genital mutilation, POB 197, Southfields, New York 10975, USA.

[2] Mutilations sexuelles f'minines: dossier d'information, WHO, Geneva (1994); Toubia, Nahid; Izett, S: Female genital mutilation, an overview, WHO, Geneva, 1998.

[3] Egypt Demographic and Health Survey 1995, National Population Council, Cairo, September 1996; Le Monde, 26 June 1997, p. 3.

are you stupid or something it tends to be culturally accepted by groupd that tend to be muslim but islam says nothing about. you cannot rationally atribute fgm to islam in areas when it was practiced before islam existed. just be cause the two tend to appear together doesn't mean one caused the other or vice versa

 

[Huwy]

apparently we are expected to belief that it is not an islamic practice, much like we are expected to believe that Aisha was actually 16, not 9 years old, when Mohammed the prophet first penetrated her.

 

[Huwy]

I should add here that despite having full respect for those who were circumcised (it wasn't their decision), i am also strongly against the practice of male genital mutilation, and believe that those who continue to practice it today should be imprisoned.

 

[S.A.M.]

apparently we are expected to belief that it is not an islamic practice, much like we are expected to believe that Aisha was actually 16, not 9 years old, when Mohammed the prophet first penetrated her.

You are only expected to use reason (as in the case of Aisha) and aim for resolution of an issue . Many women in those countries do not even recognise the issue.

I should add here that despite having full respect for those who were circumcised (it wasn't their decision), i am also strongly against the practice of male genital mutilation, and believe that those who continue to practice it today should be imprisoned.

Skanky.

 

[John99]

You are only expected to use reason (as in the case of Aisha) and aim for resolution of an issue . Many women in those countries do not even recognise the issue.



Skanky.

What do you mean by skanky, it seems out of context? S.A.M

Why did you change your title? ha ha ha...SPAM

What would you change mine to?

 

[S.A.M.]

Those that adhere to Islamic superstition may not want to accept that FGM is an Islamic cultural tradition, but they can do little to rebuke it, particularly since there is so much written within Islamic literature about it. I fixed the link in my previous post by adding a link from the Internet Archive, but I'll re-link the citations here as well.

Its not practised by educated Muslims except perhaps Egyptians since it seems about 97% of the women over there have undergone FGM and women who do not undergo it are considered masculine.

All Islamic scholarly research is cited for accuracy; all educated Muslims recognise and understand this fact.

 

[John99]

Its not practised by educated Muslims except perhaps Egyptians since it seems about 97% of the women over there have undergone FGM and women who do not undergo it are considered masculine.
.

Thats terrible.

 

[w1z4rd]

I love how people can justify pedophilia and child mutilation in the name of religion. Sis.

 

[S.A.M.]

I love how people can justify pedophilia and child mutilation in the name of religion. Sis.

Its not a question of justification; its a question of cultural sensitivity

FGM has been documented in individuals from many religions, including Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Some proponents of the practice claim that it is required by the Islamic faith. However, scholars and theologians of Islam state that female circumcision is not prescribed by their religious doctrine, emphasizing that the procedure is almost never performed in many major Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan.17

Kopelman18 has summarized four additional reasons proposed to explain the custom of FGM: 1) to preserve group identity; 2) to help maintain cleanliness and health; 3) to preserve virginity and family honor and prevent immorality; and 4) to further marriage goals, including enhancement of sexual pleasure for men. Preservation of cultural identity has been noted by Toubia19 to be of particular importance for groups who have previously faced colonialism and for immigrants threatened by a dominant culture. FGM is endemic in poor societies where marriage is essential to the social and economic security for women. FGM becomes a physical sign of a woman's marriageability, with social control exercised over her sexual pleasure by clitorectomy and over reproduction by infibulation.

Culturally insensitive measures do not work

An educational program about FGM requires, above all, sensitivity to the cultural background of the patient and her parents and an appreciation of the significance of this custom in their tradition

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=8736673&dopt=Abstract

Traditional female genital circumcision, or female genital mutilation, performed upon women in some non-Western cultures has provoked considerable international controversy since the late 1970s. Western feminists, physicians, and ethicists condemn such practice. Having made moral judgement against female genital mutilation, however, what is the next step? There is clearly an impasse between cultural relativism on the one hand and universalism on the other. Those at the forefront of the debate on female genital mutilation must learn to work respectfully with, instead of independently of, local resources for cultural self-examination and change.

Bringing religion into it only complicates the issue even further.

 

[John99]

FGM

Female Genital Mutilation

Somehow you cannot put a positive spin on that one.

 

[lucifers angel]

i dont care why its done, it just shouldnt be!!

do these people have somthing against female orgasms?
also the men will somtimes sow the woman up when he goes away to make sure she doesnt stray while he is away, and when he comes back he will rip her open with a knife.

 

[S.A.M.]

FGM

Female Genital Mutilation

Somehow you cannot put a positive spin on that one.

No one is putting a spin on it. Addressing the issue is important, and if educated people overlook the impact of culture, it will only push it underground.

 

[John99]

do these people have somthing against female orgasms?
also the men will somtimes sow the woman up when he goes away to make sure she doesnt stray while he is away, and when he comes back he will rip her open with a knife.

oh, your killing me this morning