Faster Than Light

[zonabi]

light speed
its the basis of sci fi novels and the appearant speed limit of the universe.
OR IS IT ?

relativity (einsteins main squeeze) dictates that nothing is faster than the speed of light. absolutely nothing.
according to these theories, Light-Speed is the fastest speed information can be processed.

side note: the calculated speed of light is approx 299,792,458 meters per second. roughly 300 million meters per second. Zoom Zoom!
I believe this calculation is limited to Our Galaxy Only. I believe that Light Speed Varies from Galaxy to Galaxy, and Possibly within Solar Systems as well.

with all the arguments about what light actually is, people dispute and debate but in reality it doesnt matter. either it is a wave or perhaps a light particle (some believe) or a mix of the two (i believe) the question is not what is light but how can we get to that speed?

is FTL (faster than light) travel possible?

I believe it is.

although i dont have scientific proof, i did find one piece of evidence.

If in fact Alien Crafts have been recovered on Earth with Alien Bodies inside of them, then there is no doubt where it came from.
Outer-Space.
So, after you establish that, you realize that this Craft came from another planet. Well, pick one, any one- and tell me how far away it is- in LIGHT-YEARS. Even if these Crafts came from a MODERATELY CLOSE PLANET, it would take thousands of years to get here (and thats travelling at Light-Speed). Now, These Crafts were manned by Aliens (usually around 2 per ship) - this proposes two things:
-either the aliens have extremely supernatural long LIFESPANS
-or they were travelling FASTER THAN LIGHT.

i doubt the first idea is true, a living creature living for thousands of years.
doesnt it seem more probable that these Alien Lifeforms have developed FTL travel? We are new kids on the galaxy block, whose to say other lifeforms who have been living long before us have had the time to develop the technology for this?

conclusion: theres is Faster Than Light Speed.

*note:
i believe that when light-speed is surpassed, the object travelling loses all of its color, and furthermore, any lifeform travelling FTL will not be able to see ANYTHING.

 

[VRob]

The closest star is 4.2 light years away, so they wouldn't necessarily have to break the light speed barrier, or travel for thousands of years, if they were coming from Alpha Centieri.

However, I believe there is a more simple answer than attempting to reach Light speed. It revolves around the idea that the fastest way to get from point A, to point B, is a straight line........ Well, maybe it isn't.

 

[zonabi]

Yes, but i dont think any life can live on Alpha Centauri. Does it have planets revolving around it or is it merely a star ?

However, I believe there is a more simple answer than attempting to reach Light speed. It revolves around the idea that the fastest way to get from point A, to point B, is a straight line........ Well, maybe it isn't.

precisely! you speak of wormholes and black holes as shortcuts?
I think that would qualify as Faster Than Light Speed.
(light cannot escape b.holes)

My post isnt about reaching Light Speed, its about FTL Speed.
Point being that you can travel faster than light. somehow.
Other lifeforms have developed technology to do so, and we need to get on the ball.

*note: the US government had classified detailed documents on energy systems that would completely revolutionize our economy and help us get out into space soon. They are WITH HOLDING these important Documents because they have to do with UFO technology, and Because of the impact the Oil Indutry has on the world

 

[Mystech]

Listen to you going on about how the aliens are from other planets. Have you completely discounted the posability that they are extradimentional, or time travelers?!

 

[blackholesun]

Alpha Centauri is a trinary system. Proxima Centauri is the closest of the bunch. I'm pretty sure no planets have been found around it or the others yet, if there are even any.

Also the speed of light wouldn't change in other solar systems, or other galaxies. The Universe is bound by laws and parts of it just don't disregard it. The may be ways around the light speed barrier, but I doubt we'll figure out how mechanically any time soon.

 

[SpyMoose]

I sure hope the Oil companys are suppressing revolutionary ways of generating energy, because in about 50 years we will be sucking the last barrels of oil out of the earth, and the shortages will begin decades before that. Its sort of comforting to know that these powerful knowledgeable industrys that already own power distributing infrastructures are sitting on sources of energy that will allow us to live better than we even are now, once all the oil is gone.

 

[zonabi]

Mystech no i have not discounted those kind of aliens

i simply didnt mention them because they can give a shit about travel faster than light, they are from other dimensions!
time-travelers- same thing, why would they be concerned with how fast they can travel? they can cut thru time silly!

Spymoose - so you'd rather waste your money on gas and electricity all your life, (and consume all the earth's natural resources) instead of using EVIRONMENTALLY SAFE, ZERO-ENERGY LOSS power systems ?

dude come on.

 

[sly1]

Im not exact on this but I do believe that scientist have already proven that you can change the speed of light. I read somewhere that some european and american scientist have found a way to speed up light 5X faster than normal. They said it was soo fast that the beam of light they spead up existed in two places at once. They have also found a way to slow the speed of light to somehwere around 35 miles per hour. The main use for this new research is mainly for advanced communications rather than space flight or transportation. You might want to check out more info over google or on these links

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/02/990223083631.htm

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/constant_changing_010815.html

 

[zonabi]

one question for blackhole:

how do you know the speed of light is exactly the same here on earth as say, inside the andromeda galaxy?
Did you measure it ? oh some scientists did. Where did they make this calculation? From earth, oh that makes sense. yea right !
U are going strictly by what other scientists said, and i bet if they said FTL speed is possible 2morrow, you would change your mind.

Bottom Line: you dont know how fast light travels anywhere else but here. We are stuck in our "reference frame" if you will. all outside assumptions shall be NULL and VOID!

We cannot apply LAWs to the UNIVERSE, thats utter nonsense. I respect Mathemeticians very greatly, but they failed to see that we can only account for what happens HERE, in our galaxy at the most.

which brings me back the my topic- we need to get going on this FTL travel, or any other type of space travel. Then we can really see how fast light goes.

oooh, and sly1 just posted some very good information! right-on !

 

[blackholesun]

one question for blackhole:

how do you know the speed of light is exactly the same here on earth as say, inside the andromeda galaxy?!

How do you know it isn't? You seem so sure. I mean...where is YOUR analysis?

We cannot apply LAWs to the UNIVERSE, thats utter nonsense. I respect Mathemeticians very greatly, but they failed to see that we can only account for what happens HERE, in our galaxy at the most.

Math is what nature is built upon. Look at all the patterns in nature. Don't you think a galaxy would form differently under different conditions? Don't you think we'd see those differences? That's not what astronomers see. They see similar conditions; light undergoing doppler shift to a specific degree as predicted by current theory.

which brings me back the my topic- we need to get going on this FTL travel, or any other type of space travel. Then we can really see how fast light goes.

Just look at particle accelerators. Wonder why they can't accelerate particles past 99.999999% c? Because they are obeying relativity just as predicted.

 

[TredLightly]

..."how do you know the speed of light is exactly the same here on earth as say, inside the andromeda galaxy?"

Um, are you forgetting that the vast majority of the observable EM spectrum reaching Earth, from other stars, (whether or not observed as particle or wave) is "extra-galactic" in origin? We do not simply switch on a light bulb and apply the results to the whole of the universe. We also average in the calculated speed of light reaching us from those other galaxies/stars...and YES we do average. Gravity and matter density can and and do slow the speed at which light travels. The speed of light here on Earth is slightly slower then that in the vacuum of space...but nowhere has it conclusively proven to accelerate beyond the equations of relativity. There is no barrier that causes the speed of light to change once it enters our own galaxy, other then matter and gravity...


edit:Just thought I would also throw this in there...The speed of light is not something that Einstein cooked up. He merely identified it as a natural, universal speed limit. Scientists have been attempting to calculate the average speed of light for the better part of 300+ years, and has been theorized on longer. It is one of humanities longest, continuous scientific observations.

 

[Ellimist]

Logic - 1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic *modal logic* *Boolean logic* (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason *the logic of war*
–lo£gi£cian \l*-*ji-sh*n\ noun


Work on that.

 

[zonabi]

some interesting stuff i found about the trinary star system alpha centauri.

talking about possible life within alpha centauri

....we know that Proxima Centauri is a definite no-go. It is too small, a flare star, and does not emit enough light or heat.

But Alpha Centauri A and B are very possible life-harbouring stars.
Both planets are not a lot bigger/smaller than the sun. Nor are they too hot. Though there remains some discussion around the fact if whether the spectral type of AC-B is right for life, the spectral type of A is perfect (as discussed earlier it has the same spectral type as our sun being G2)
Due to this right spectral type, elements needed to harbour life, are for sure in the core of these stars.
Scientists know for a fact that the binary pair is old enough for life, but have doubts if C is.

http://www.eso.org/outreach/eduoff/edu-prog/catchastar/CAS2002/cas-projects/nether_alphacen_1/lifepos.html

There is no barrier that causes the speed of light to change once it enters our own galaxy, other then matter and gravity...

but my question is, how do you know there isnt?
if in fact, i said if, the speed of light is altered once it enters our galaxy, we wouldnt be able to know that it has changed, we would simply observe what we have.
plus- one thing to think about:

We also average in the calculated speed of light reaching us from those other galaxies/stars...and YES we do average. Gravity and matter density can and and do slow the speed at which light travels. The speed of light here on Earth is slightly slower then that in the vacuum of space...

average meaning that the observed speeds from different sources were slightly different?
if so, i think this could account for what im trying to say. let me explain.
lets say light leaves a galaxy at a certain speed 'A'
once it reaches the vacuums of space it is said to gain speed, this would be 'A + x' (im keeping it real dumbfoundedly simple)
now youve got a faster speed of light, but when it enters our galaxy, the vacuum of space is Gone and the Light is slown down once again.
this would be a new speed, speed 'A + x - y'
Y would relate to our galactal light-speed limit, the 300 million meters per sec.

sorry guys im not trying to argue with yall
just tryin to open your minds to new ideas

 

[VRob]

Ellimist,

Where exactly did we loose you in this discussion?

 

[TredLightly]

"sorry guys im not trying to argue with yall
just tryin to open your minds to new ideas "

If we weren't open minded, we would not be open to replying to you with serious answers...

Anyway, back to the speed of light.

"once it reaches the vacuums of space it is said to gain speed, this would be 'A + x' (im keeping it real dumbfoundedly simple)
now youve got a faster speed of light, but when it enters our galaxy, the vacuum of space is Gone and the Light is slown down once again."

As far as I am aware, light is subject to the same laws of motion as anything else within the universe...As in, once the speed is reduced, it can not re-accelerate (at least not under its own momentum).

Let us use your own simple equation: If A + x is the speed of light in a vacuum, then that is the maximum velocity at which light can travel. Once the speed is reduced to A, it can not again gain + x without there being some outside force acting upon it. In fact, depending on what resistance acted upon it, light would only further decrease in velocity to A - y (Note: this reduction is infinitesimally small, and could probably only be estimated by some mathematical formula in theory)

"if in fact, i said if, the speed of light is altered once it enters our galaxy, we wouldnt be able to know that it has changed, we would simply observe what we have."

Wrong. If the speed of light drastically decreased upon entering out Galaxy, the measured Doppler (red/blue) shift would be so skewed that it would become unreliable. When light moves towards the lower energy...the wavelength increases. In the visible spectrum, this means red. If speed was drastically decreased upon entering the Galaxy, the wave length would increase giving the illusion of redshift...even if the source were moving closer toward the observer. The fact that there is even a measurable blue shift counts that out...at least for a drastic reduction in speed/energy, anyway.

I am not a scientists, so if I am wrong in any of this...please correct me.

[Notes on the Spead of Light:

The speed of light in vacuum is exactly 299,792,458 m/s (metres per second)

In 1983 the SI (Systeme International) defined a metre as:


The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.
When people refer to the speed of light, they refer to the definition above - the speed of light in a vacuum.

The speed of light is normally rounded to 300 000 kilometers per second or 186 000 miles per second.

The speed of light depends on the material that the light moves through - for example: light moves slower in water, glass and through the atmosphere than in a vacuum. The ratio whereby light is slowed down is called the refractive index of that medium.

In general, the difference in the speed of light in other mediums is ignored.

Some more Notes on Red Shift for those not familiar:

A redshift is a shift in the frequency of a photon toward lower energy, or longer wavelength. The redshift is defined as the change in the wavelength of the light divided by the rest wavelength of the light, as

z = (Observed wavelength - Rest wavelength)/(Rest wavelength)

Note that positive values of z correspond to increased wavelengths (redshifts).

Different types of redshifts have different causes.

The Doppler Redshift results from the relative motion of the light emitting object and the observer. If the source of light is moving away from you then the wavelength of the light is stretched out, i.e., the light is shifted towards the red. These effects, individually called the blueshift, and the redshift are together known as doppler shifts. The shift in the wavelength is given by a simple formula

(Observed wavelength - Rest wavelength)/(Rest wavelength) = (v/c)

so long as the velocity v is much less than the speed of light. A relativistic doppler formula is required when velocity is comparable to the speed of light.

The Cosmological Redshift is a redshift caused by the expansion of space. The wavelength of light increases as it traverses the expanding universe between its point of emission and its point of detection by the same amount that space has expanded during the crossing time.

The Gravitational Redshift is a shift in the frequency of a photon to lower energy as it climbs out of a gravitational field.

 

[Mystech]

Spymoose - so you'd rather waste your money on gas and electricity all your life, (and consume all the earth's natural resources) instead of using EVIRONMENTALLY SAFE, ZERO-ENERGY LOSS power systems ?

dude come on.

Read his post a little closer. I think the idea is that he reallizes he CAN'T use fossile fules all his life, they're due to dry up in the next ten years or so, and he'd be glad to think that those happy alternatives do exist and the oil companies are just holding them back for the time being.

 

[Ellimist]

Look, science cannot be thought of based on hunches and this conversation cannot be taken seriously if the premise is the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligence that somehow figured out FTL travel.

I believe this calculation is limited to Our Galaxy Only. I believe that Light Speed Varies from Galaxy to Galaxy, and Possibly within Solar Systems as well.

And that is exactly what it is. A belief.

 

[zonabi]

and you Believe the speed of light is unvariable. u never actually measured it but since alot of ppl agreed, you "Believe" it too. quite like religion, except ur proof is numbers not words.

i am simply trying to bring the IDea that FTL travel might be plausible, and i want to debate with what other people think.

U guys always doubt these E.T.s
we can learn alot from them !
but, some dont even think they exist

 

[blackholesun]

Well see here's the thing. There is a lot of proof that backs the c speed limit theory and relativity. If you do a quick search, you'll see a lot of the research people did to achieve those conclusions. They just didn't make shit up for the sake of it.

U guys always doubt these E.T.s
we can learn alot from them !
but, some dont even think they exist

More than some bucko.

 

[zonabi]

well- firstly i dont necessarily disagree with the mathematics, just the assumption that its constant across the entire universe when no one has even stepped outside of our own solar system.
secondly, the reason there is so much backup (when u search the theories, and i do) is because people gave it a chance and over time it has gained alot of proof and backup.
point being- if we can consider that FTL speed and ZPE devices and that kind of stuff can really happen, then we can move to the next step which would be studying it and finding out "whats the deal" so we can progress our human race-
our close minded theories will keep us stuck on this run of the mill planet forever unless we consider new ideas.

- i would expect more believers of extra terrestrial life here on sciforums