Faith, and taking a chance

[muscleman]

I have heard many times over and over again atheist claiming "BIBLE IS SELF-CONTRADICTORY", and noone can prove you wrong otherwise because you ask the wrong christians, christians who are not educated concerning their faith, WELL HERE I AM, A CATECHIST TEACHER, ASK ME NOW AND TELL ME ABOUT THE SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS, AND I WILL ANSWER IT CORRECTLY AND WILL PROVE TO YOU THAT IT IS FREE OF CONTRADICTION, BIBLE IS FLAWLESS WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, MANY YEARS SCHOLARS HAVE DEVOTED THEIR TIME ON UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE, PRIEST GO TO SCHOOL FOR OVER 8 YEARS, JESUIT PREIST EVEN MORE, I WENT TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS, I HAVE FOUND NOTHING IN THE BIBLE CONTRADICTORY, IF YOU THINK SO THEN POST IT HERE...IM WAITING.....

 

[Empty Dragon]

Muscle Man- This post HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE. It is not called Finding faults in the bible its names ;

Faith and Taking a chance

Please muscle man be rational, Most of us here jsut want to intellignetly debate philosophy (Well most of us...Xev). I wish to accept you the way you are, I will treat you with the same respect you give me. I most of us here are not God haters (Xev excluded) and wish you nothing but joy and happiness. If your way of life is fufilling to you then by all means do so. I realize that many christians have the god intention of spreading the word of god and I respect that you wish to save our souls. I am truley honored by such an act.

I once heard a story about how Jesus is like changes your life:

If you let Jesus in the door he will go through your, kitchen repaint, get new forks, knives and rebuild it. Then he will move through the rest of the house and do the same. But as he gets to your room (the most intimate part of your house) You stop him and say " Hey I've got some dirty sock lying around, underware just hanging from the ceiling fan. I don't want you to go it there. Jesus replyed "What ever you have in there I will accept, I will not hate you for it. But If you do not want me to enter I will not. I will not force my self upon you, it always your choice and you have the right to make it. But I will wait, and I will not enter untill you are ready" Do see what i mean?

Xev....*sigh
You are such an intelligent person and you could most deffinitly teach us a thing or to about life. Every person you meet can teach you a lesson, Even if you make fun of them and they listen with an open heart, THEY walk away with a little bit moreand if you keep your mind shut you just walk away pissed off. Who walks away a better person?

Xev athiestism isn't a hatred for god and the church. How can you not believe in something you hate? I don't knwo you personally so I could be wrong...

Sorry Xev i really do not mean to single you out here.

 

[ThatJerk]

You're right, dragon, atheism has nothing to do with hating religion; that's a subject unto itself. I hate religion; I hate how ignorant it makes people and how hate-filled (ja ja, nail me for hypocrisy if you like) it makes them. I hate how it represses people's actions and thoughts with a set of arbitrary rules that are not open to question. I hate how it inspires people to go out and kill people who believe differently from them.

I am also atheist; I don't hate religion BECAUSE I am atheist. Rather, my atheism gives me the intellectual freedom to make judgements on sacred cows like bible and God. Whether I am repulsed by what I see or not has nothing to do with my lack of belief in it. I hate Christianity, Islam and Judaism because these three religions are responsible for a disproportionate chunk of the world's hatred and grief. I am ambivelent toward Buddhism, because while Buddhists actually follow their tenets about not killing people I still have issues with some of their beliefs. Hinduism, I know very little about, though I find it fascinating. The ancient religions of the classical civilisations (Greece, Rome, the Hatti, etc.) I find very interesting, mostly because the myths are very cool.

Perhaps Xev has had some bad experiences with Christianity in her past, and has some (or lots) of residual bitterness toward it, even while she is atheist.

Or, she has similar issues to what I outlined above and is slightly more vocal about it (and I do mean slightly).

Either way, I suggest you be more careful in your assumptions about 'God haters'.

P.S. If Jesus wanted to fix up my house for free I'd let him... especially my room. It's a dreadful mess. Then I'd kick his pansy ass out on the street.

 

[notme2000]

I'm only here to learn. It is why I've never let myself get sucked in to a bitter fued. Except for Tiassa, but Tiassa taught me a valuable lesson; ego is the death of intelligence. I try to apply this every second of my life, and I have learnt much. I try to teach as many as I can, realizing I have just as much to learn from them. It all depends on what your priorities are. If you want to make yourself feel better by insulting other people, fine, but you don't really gain much. But if you want to learn and better yourself then treat everyone with respect, even the person dissing yo' momma, lol. I have been doing this ever since Tiassa showed me it's benefits, and it has done wonders for me! And if you go around marveling at how right you are, then even if you are right, it's for the wrong reasons. But chances are you don't know even a fraction of the truth, so be humble about it and let experience guide you.

Just my opinion

 

[~The_Chosen~]

More insults...amazing

Originally posted by ThatJerk
Following this gem came this, after I called him for placing words in my mouth...

Where did I place words in your mouth? You have proved nothing.

My 'inept reading skills' aren't being helped by your sub-par intelligence and tact. Why on earth would you ask such a thunderingly stupid question as "Do you deny the Israelites ever existed?"?

Since you said that there is little evidence of them, I am asking you if you deny the existence of the Israelites or not. Well, do you?

Does anybody else find it pathetically amusing how he tries to backpedal after doing everything BUT accusing me of being thoroughly ignorant of history?

I did not accuse you of anything, if you think that the Iraelites did not exist, then you are ignorant of history and what "history is", if not, then great.

It's called sarcasm. I find it useful when dealing with twits such as yourself. Dumbass.

More insults? Wonderful.

And that means jackshit when discussing great literature. Why do you insist on calling the bible great literature for following these rules when any fool could do so?

Any fool could do so? Are you implying that the authors of the Synoptics and John are fools?

Yes, that means you aren't alone. Go cry on muscleman's shoulder.

Semantics. I used the word genius, you used the word intelligent. I meant exactly what you meant.

Genuis and intelligent are two different words, understand? Do not even try to move the goal posts. If you argue, you quote your opponents word for word, it's called having a verbatim debate and that minimizes "speaking for the other person"

So then, what WAS the point of that? That the bible is self-contradicting?

You don't seem to understand. Authors write for a purpose, and sometimes their points of view conflict with one another.

Read Job, and maybe you'll understand.

Do you take the contents of the Gospels at face value? You seem quite enamoured with the WAY in which they were presented by their authors, and you evidently seem to like the messages they convey, so yeah I think it's safe to assume that you are programmed to believe in their divinity.

I don't believe in the God depicted in the Bible and certain stories, and I'm a non-denominational theist.

it's "safe to assume"? It never is.

So all you've said is "the bible contains beautiful literature", eh? You're right, you never actually said "these texts contain holy and beautiful truths"; that's evident enough. So do you then deny that you believe in the bible? How can you believe in the bible and NOT believe that it contains "holy and beautiful truths"? Do you see how I can come to that conclusion, knowing that you believe in the bible?

Before this post, have I mentioned that I believed in the Bible?

Go fish for that statement from me and QUOTE me.

You are full of assumptions, so learn from your mistakes.

My 'assumptions' were based on statements you made about the bible while taking into consideration the fact that you obviously believe in the bible as well as liking it as a literary piece.

"Obviously believe"? Where is the "OBVIOUS PROOF"?

Deduction is different from assumption.

Deduction? You clearly assumed.

Here's an assumption: you haven't been laid in a number of years, because you're certainly morally masturbating yourself a whole hell of a lot over here.

More insults? How low will you go?

You really like it? You'll excuse me for reacting rather negatively for being accused of ignorance on the basis of you twisting my own words.

WHERE HAVE I TWISTED YOUR OWN WORDS?

Your statements demand PROOF. Now show it.

Backpedalling does nothing but make you look even worse, Chosen. Go back to praying that God will finally make girls like you; you'll certainly need all the help you can get if you have any of the same charm and originality you show here.

Sorry, notme. I know this is a heinous threadjack, but Chosen needs a grade-A moon-rock spanking.

Now squeel, Chosen... squeel like the bitch you are. I still need today's dose of funny.

If you further hurl insults, this argument will be offcially over.

I have low tolerance for callow individuals who lack forum etiquette.

 

[notme2000]

I gotta ask, do you people (chosen, muscleman) just skim over my posts cause it would make you question all this pointless bickering? You do realize you could learn something from each other, right?

 

[muscleman]

notme2000, i sensed that your not an atheist but an agnostic, just a curious guy, though mellow but doesnt accept God. I am really caught up about such questions of atheist, and thats why my attnetion is geared toward them, especialy frencheneez, but like you said we can all learn from each other, and yes, I am trying to learn the best of you, others and frencheneez have to say. knowledge is power...

 

[notme2000]

I may be completely misinformed on the subject, but doesn't agnostic mean you believe God isn't the highest being, but he is in control of this universe, and Abraxis is above God and feels sorry for the humans being ruled by an unjust ruler, God. So he sent Jesus to let us know how to defeat our evil God?

If that is the case then I am definately not agnostic. I call myself athiest for lack of better words. I do not reject God, or even the possibility of a God. But at this point in time I do not have enough evidence to believe in a God, though I can't say I have enough evidence to believe there isn't one. So all I can say is I don't know, but have an opinion, which can change.

**EDIT**
I just looked up agnosticism, and I suppose you are right. The info I found said it is to suspend judgement of wether or not there is a god, or life after death, etc... On the grounds that at this point in time there is no way of knowing. My sentiments exactly. But none-the-less I am going to stick with the "athiest" title to avoid confusion. I have no idea where my source got his info on agnosticism and Abraxis and all that....

 

[UltiTruth]

Free Thought

Originally posted by ThatJerk
Hinduism, I know very little about, though I find it fascinating.

ThatJerk:
The beauty of Hinduism is the freedom of thought that is built into it. Probably that is what makes it an ever evolving and extremely tolerant religion, in spite of being the oldest religion. The basic tenet is that God comes in various forms in various shapes at various times. And one can still be a Hindu believing in Jesus!

For that matter, one need not necessarily believe in God to be a Hindu! And Hinduism never needs people to convert into Hindus. Most Hindus visit Churches and Mosques too and that is not a sin or offence. Hinduism simply imbibes what is best everywhere.

Should you be interested in knowing more, the posts of kmguru and spookz might help. And I can too, to a small extent.
Greetz.

 

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by Empty Dragon
Ridiculing the way of another, what does that accomplish? Xev it sounds like you have some pent up hostility, your an atheist go jerk off (Put that left hand to good use)

Xev I have read many intelligent posts from you in the past.

Keyword: past.

Xev has been a great person when I first came to sciforums.com. She posted more essential posts and was alot more personable.

She seems to have changed from then, most of her posts now are repugnant jokes that serve little purpose. She is not her old self anymore.

Sure a joke is good, but entitle it with a point to make it more meaningful.

By Xev
Chosen, luv, you have no ideas and you're barely a person as it is. You're just a slave to the values you've been force-fed (like those geese that they make foi gras out of - no choice but to swallow the sweet, fattening stuff) and thus I have carte blanche to amuse myself watching you squeal.

So again:

SQEEEEAAAAAALLLL!

Xev, spare me the insults and derogatory comments; I grew out of that a long time ago.

"Force-fed"? That's why I'm a free-thinker?

 

[Xev]

Empty:
*Yawn*

Dear, try to find some better insults than whatever drivel you thiests have been regurgitating for the last 2000 years.

And learn to spell.

Jerk:

Perhaps Xev has had some bad experiences with Christianity in her past, and has some (or lots) of residual bitterness toward it, even while she is atheist.

Not a'tall. I like black metal. A lot is very anti-religious - hell, a lot of rock is anti-christian - thus it's easy to post lyrics that piss muscleman off.

You're worth an actual response, so I'll explain:

I don't hate God. I don't believe in Him. I don't hate Christians, in fact, some are rather nice. I don't even hate muscleman. As far as I'm concerned, he's cheap entertainment. Like FoxMulder was.

If somebody posts nothing but drivel in caps lock (muscleman), I see them as a moron. I thus get to taunt them for a cheap laugh. If somebody posts nothing but crude attempts at insult (empty dragon), I see them as a moron and I taunt them if I'm bored enough.

Very little on this forum affects me. I've had conversations that have literally changed my life.....but this is not one of them. In my eyes, a forum is a place to kill time. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Empty Dragon]

Yeah Xev sorry about the "Left hand" thing in the other forum. My apologies. That was motivated by the fact that I might make a funny joke (Alas A life long goal). Really you are right about that one. Once again I'm sorry if it offended you. But the last Post I made in this forum had no malice behind it. So please don't be insulted by that.

Please leave my spelling Alone I am trying...(Product of the spell check) I've been kind of lazy, i'll work on it. I realize how silly it is and am trying to make my work more comprehendible.

I only realized how pointless it is to poke fun at another in philosophy, even if it is in good spirits. Thanx Notme

Xev why would you assume I am thiest?

*Yawn...sleepy now

 

[ThatJerk]

We-e-elll... history... ish... we're not really sure if the Israelites ever WERE in Egypt. It's possible, but there's precious little evidence of that fact, and there's some that they never were. History in the bible is distorted, at best... I'll take my high school text-book, thanks

Here's the statement that lead you say:

So are you denying the Israelites ever existed?

I say it's likely that they were NEVER IN EGYPT!!! NEVER IN EGYPT, not NEVER EXISTED!!!

How is this difficult to grasp? Do you know understand why I'd be a little annoyed? Do you see how you fucked up there? The only possibility that could lead to your error is:

It's possible, but there's precious little evidence of that fact, and there's some that they never were.

By 'they never were' I mean 'never were IN EGYPT'. If it wasn't that, then you put words in my mouth and are a bigger moron than I thought.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?

*cough*

Any fool could do so? Are you implying that the authors of the Synoptics and John are fools?

They could have been, they could have not been. I don't know, but being able to write with some formal structue does NOT mean that they were assuredly NOT fools. I know idiots who do well in English because they know how to write what the prof. wants and I know very intelligent people who don't do as well because they have no clue about HOW to write.

Genuis and intelligent are two different words, understand? Do not even try to move the goal posts. If you argue, you quote your opponents word for word, it's called having a verbatim debate and that minimizes "speaking for the other person"

Again with the semantic quibbling. We meant the same thing; I used a different word from you. If you'd rather I can repost it and paste 'intelligence' over 'genius'. Would that make you happy? Really, semantic quibbling is a sign that you're short on points to counter.

It is beautiful Literature, and if you think it is a bunch of crap, then I greatly pity you and your prejudice

I disagree that it is beautiful literature, and that is not because of prejudice. I am honestly repulsed by what I read. Technical skill in it's contruction means nothing to my like or dislike for it.

I don't believe in the God depicted in the Bible and certain stories

CERTAIN stories. So some, but not all? Those were the ones I was referring to; Matthew, Mark, etc. I'm sorry if I made it a blanket statement and was less than clear; I was still annoyed with you and went too far.

Can you see how, from your previous two statements I quoted, I would be lead to believe that you believe in the bible? The statement of 'pity for my prejudice' is a line that ANY fundie would say after I say I don't believe in God. I've heard it a zillion times in that context, so my Fundie Alarm to goes off when I hear it.

Yes, I admit, I drew some conclusions that I shouldn't have (and wouldn't have if I'd reviewed your posts from before our flame-fest). However, I still think that your opinion about the bible is coloured by your beliefs, whether you admit it or not.

If you further hurl insults, this argument will be offcially over.

I have low tolerance for callow individuals who lack forum etiquette

With idiots like muscleman running around, I'm amazed that you can make noise about forum etiquette; I'd figured the gloves were off from the get-go. I thought you were deliberately baiting me by falsely accusing me of absolute historical ignorance, so I let out the stops.

I'm disappointed that you're so thin-skinned, Chosen. This was just starting to become fun.

 

[notme2000]

If somebody posts nothing but drivel in caps lock (muscleman), I see them as a moron. I thus get to taunt them for a cheap laugh

Or you could take the high road, respect them, and maybe even teach them something... Your choice...

Very little on this forum affects me. I've had conversations that have literally changed my life.....but this is not one of them

You know, if you would have more of an open mind, this thread might gain potential to changing your life. This is why open minded people often end up quite wise people as well. They see the potential in every person, every conversation, instead of brushing it off and contributing to the problem instead... :bugeye:

 

[UltiTruth]

All is well that ends well

Well I am new here, I finally find that here is a bunch of rational and understanding people (except of course, one or two).

The last few posts were amazing. Everyone seems to have come out into the open off one's emotional attachment!

Greetz Chosen, ThatJerk, Xev, EmptyDragon, notme2000

 

[notme2000]

Welcome to sciforums Ulti! Look forward to seeing you in many threads!

 

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by ThatJerk
I say it's likely that they were NEVER IN EGYPT!!! NEVER IN EGYPT, not NEVER EXISTED!!!

Answer the simple question. Do you deny their existence? Yes or no.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?

Notice, I won't reply to any sentence with an insulting phrase in it, because it isn't worth the time to argue, you have alot to learn.

Of course I do, now, why don't you show me where I deliberately put words in your mouth? Quote me, please do. If you can't, I understand that you never had the proof to claim such in the first place.

I know idiots who do well in English because they know how to write what the prof. wants

I would say they are intelligent. As long as they get that A.

and I know very intelligent people who don't do as well because they have no clue about HOW to write.

Then they aren't intelligent, in regards to english, if they don't know "HOW to write."

Again with the semantic quibbling. We meant the same thing; I used a different word from you.

No we didn't and you cannot speak for me. Keyword: different, and yes, you did use a different word from me.

If you'd rather I can repost it and paste 'intelligence' over 'genius'. Would that make you happy? Really, semantic quibbling is a sign that you're short on points to counter.

You already made the error and I already pointed it out. If you took any debate classes, you would understand. That is distortion, and you cited me and misrepresented my evidence (the citation).

This is a small issue, but you need to understand what verbatim quotes are and how important they are in a fair debate.

CERTAIN stories. So some, but not all?

Noah and the Ark - fantasy

Meanwhile, Jesus probably existed and I do not deny his existence like some.

You will get my point of view when you know this: The bible is religous interpretation of history. It is not history itself. The figures are most likely historically accurate but the what has occured and happened and the why with these figures, is questionable.

Can you see how, from your previous two statements I quoted, I would be lead to believe that you believe in the bible?

I already mentioned I am a non-denominational theist, if you treat me as a regular theist, you will be awry with what you perceive of me.

I think like an athiest, the free-thinking side, but then I don't have the negative view most atheists have.

Yes, I admit, I drew some conclusions that I shouldn't have (and wouldn't have if I'd reviewed your posts from before our flame-fest). However, I still think that your opinion about the bible is coloured by your beliefs, whether you admit it or not.

"our flame-fest"? I did not flame you, you mean to say "your flame-fest"

To be honest, I barely have a belief, I have given up religion a long time ago and I believe religion is a fantasy, but the morals they teach and preach are good.

My opinion about the Bible is formulated by how I read the Bible and how I analyzed it. I don't love the Bible for its "eternal truths" or whatever, but rather its literature.

Most theists would think Job was about an impatient man that gets his reward from God, but that is farther from the truth and they have taken the content at face value.

With idiots like muscleman running around, I'm amazed that you can make noise about forum etiquette

I don't support muscleman in any way, he seems unreasonable and typing in CAPS makes it even worse. Forum etiquette applies to all, I've learned from my mistakes arguing, name-calling gets you nowhere, it just shows the immaturity in you.

I'm disappointed that you're so thin-skinned, Chosen. This was just starting to become fun.

If you lose those insults, then I would say you would be a great person to argue with.

Meanwhile, I'll see you again, in another argument.