Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

[Quantum Quack]

In case members have failed to see it. This thread is primarily about responsibility.

Having the ability to self determine comes with a cost called "Conscience", other wise known as culpability, and all those other words that denote responsibility for decisions, and choices attached morality, ethics and so on.

The secular Fatalist-predeterminist considers all those things that makes humans human to be an illusion a fraud of universal proportions, a self deception that destroys the reality of everything human thus turning every conceivable human truth into a lie. Ironically this would also extend to secular Fatalism-predeterminism in a final self destructive explosion of useless circular and self defeating logic.

Liars paradox : "This statement is false."
In context :
"Fatalist determinism theory is true" - when the theory renders all truth false.

Sorry to those members who can't get it....
​

So responsibility for all of human endeavor is now transferred by the logic of secular Fatalism-predeterminism to the universe in general in a last ditch effort to play the blame game, which historically drives the arguing for 3000 years or more. The word "futility" has a place here somewhere....... 3000 odd years of ego driven bullsh*t that ultimately ends up with the proxy God of self defeat.

Self determiniatism also means self responsibilitism via self conscienceism and just about any other "ism" with the word "self" put before it.

However if we humans are deprived of responsibility for our actions then to requite the need for a reason, a casuse, we must attribute the responsibility to other than our selves and place it on the shoulders of a proxy God, other wise referred to as a secular fatalistic pre-determnistic universe, which may be considered as a irrational reflection of our own need to avoid responsibility for our actions and continue to play our favorite blame game called Blame-ism.


There is no "self" in the word "determinism" so who the hell is writing this post... eh don't blame me as there is no me...

 

[Baldeee]

When you want to stop arguing from ignorance, fear, and emotion, and, you know, put an actual coherent argument together, and without the obvious bitterness and resentment your posts are dripping with, let the rest of us know.

 

[Quantum Quack]

When you want to stop arguing from ignorance, fear, and emotion, and, you know, put an actual coherent argument together, and without the obvious bitterness and resentment your posts are dripping with, let the rest of us know.

I may refer you to some of your earlier posts Baldeee that were full of arrogant ridicule and insult and you may recall me stating that there are consequences for such ....I even reported you to no avail. To which you even gloated how you could insult with impunity....

Do you recall or do I need to quote your posts here?
There are consequences of your own creation also, that you alone have to shoulder.

Perhaps you should take heed of your own words and stop arguing from ignorance, fear, and emotion, and, you know, put an actual coherent argument together, and without the obvious bitterness and resentment your posts are dripping with, let the rest of us know.

and, please, avoid your vanity driven attacks on others and stick to the topic at hand and be as objective as you possible can.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I am using classical deductive logic.
What logic do you use, when you actually get round to employing any?
And do you not have any confidence in the conclusions of your logic (although to be honest, given the fallacious way you employ logic when you do... that wouldn't be a surprise).

ever heard of abductive reasoning ( logic)
probably not....
You imply incompetence on my part using your obvious incompetence to support it. How incompetent is that?

Please stick to the topic at hand

May be you can ask around and find out what the topic is...

Is it all about QQ and how you hate his guts?
or is it about:
How extreme atheism leads to a proxy God by default?

which is it?

 

[Quantum Quack]

It is obscene that you are using a man's mental illness to push a conspiracy theory.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


And suggesting that a mentally ill man in New York was somehow or other connected to it made more sense to you?


I'll put it this way.

What is more plausible to you?

A crumbling cathedral, in desperate need of maintenance and repair, undergoing said repair and restoration, goes up in flames due to a short circuit in said desperately old cathedral?..

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-fire-cause-may-have-been-electrical-official]
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-19/what-caused-notre-dame-to-go-up-in-flames/11031782]

Or..

A crazy man in New York somehow or other being connected to a cathedral catching fire in France, because he was arrested entering several cathedrals and church's in New York clutching fuel cans (when he was arrested, he lay down on the floor, declared it was a house of God and told them to cuff him to remove him from that church), where he was then placed in a mental institution for observation?

You have pushed the dumbass conspiracy theory repeatedly in this thread.

And you expect us to trust you and take you seriously?


They believe it was an electrical short circuit, because that is the most logical explanation and reason given the circumstances, the area the fire started in and the fact that that area was also where renovations had commenced.

And why do you need a percentage chance?

You keep harping on about "extreme atheism", something that doesn't actually exist, when you should really be focusing on extreme silliness. Which, as you have clearly demonstrated, exists in spades.


To hate you would mean that I would have to have some level of emotional investment in you.

I just think you are a troll.


Which message would that be, exactly?

That Pell is a festering pustule on the backside of humanity?

a whole post devoted to off topic issues....teasing a poster to break the rules of not posting off topic..... wow!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Also, remember your audience in terms of this community; all you've accomplished is offending atheists. The word "extreme" did that. Considering Lamparello as such only compounds your sin in their eyes.

I agree with your desire to promote temperance, moderation etc as that is what a moderator does I guess. It is also what normally healthy people would do when confronted with such vehement reaction to mere words on a screen. So invested are we all in our self esteem ( ego vanity, hubris etc)

The reaction to my OP proves one thing among many things, and that is when ever a person who is heavily invested in a pet theory, that falsely generates a self esteem boost, is confronted with sound reasoning that attempts to communicate the irrationality of their position will inevitably respond with ridicule, denigration, insult instead of addressing the concerns raised.

It reminds me of a self derived wisdom learned many years ago:

"The truth is always irrational to those who believe a lie".

The reaction to any attempt to communicate a concern about the deception a person is entertaining will inevitably lead to "shoot the messenger" results.

The rest of your post was most informative and your contribution to this thread appreciated not only by me and other members but by others that are lurking in the background, wondering whether sciforums may be a go to place for rational adult discussion or not.

A "voice of reason" in a community where mass hysteria and associated extremism seems to be in vogue.
A voice no doubt learned from hard experience.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I would imagine that everyone here recognises it for what it is, from the guy who invested so much time carrying water for regimes that commit acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing.. You mean that audience?

Could you start a thread on the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar,

• recuse your moderator status,
  
• and stop cowardly sniping from a position of privilege,
• demonstrate some courage
• and let's have at it...

But first before you do... consider that Myanmar is the worlds 2nd biggest producer of Opioids and that it has the title of the Golden Triangle for a reason and extreme brutality reputation to go with it and that ISLAM is fundamentally opposed to the production and use of narcotics. ( that are inevitably feeding the opioid crisis in the USA and globally.)

... and that I will argue that it has very little to do with ethnic cleansing nor genocide, but more about getting rid of obstacles to opioid production and growth of that industry in Myanmar to facilitate supply to a heavily Opioid addicted USA and world generally.

You can post the link to the thread, in response to this post once you have started it...

 

[Musika]

If it has no bearing on the question, ...."freedom.

Precisely.
Cap talking explicitly of it in a singular sense (as opposed to a plural or even separated or integrated sense) has no bearing on the question. Hence the red herring on offer.

And Capracus has answered the question quite clearly. He said no freedom.

Yes, he did say that but he also said "No", suggesting disagreement with the proposition that freedom and determinism cannot coexist, with nothing but a red herring as a means of clarification.

 

[Musika]

I would imagine that everyone here recognises it for what it is, from the guy who invested so much time carrying water for regimes that commit acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing.. You mean that audience?

I doubt anyone here is offended. Because no one really expected anything better or reasonable from the guy who fought so vehemently to defend a regime that is committing genocide and ethnic cleansing..

He is not presenting anything new. We have lost count of the amount of times people have demanded that atheists believe in something or other, just as we have lost count of the amount of times people have tried to present atheism as a religion or religious ideology, etc, etc...

At the end of the day, "extreme atheism" does not exist.. And no amount of his changing the meaning of words to make it all fit, will actually change that.

This is foolishness.
Any point of view has ( at the very least) the potential to take an extreme course.
(In fact you could even say there is a historical precedent of such extremeism, with communism)

Of course, at this point, you will no doubt advocate that atheism does not come as a point of view, like the so called atheism of stones and new born children.
The problem is that you are not representative of such a blank canvas, so your sigh of relief along the lines of "Extremeism? That doesn't apply to my views" comes across as yet another variant of the attempt to score egotistical or political kudos, which is so typical of these sorts of discussions.

 

[Write4U]

In case members have failed to see it. This thread is primarily about responsibility

Determinism does not relieve you from responsibility. You will act as you are determined to act, but if others determine that to be punishible then you will be punished.

There are criminal laws which are deterministic in their direction. If you, for any reason whatever, except self-defense, choose to ignore that law, you will be determined guilty of a crime and pay the price. This law is part of the deterministic state before you commit the crime.

The responsibility does not lie with you, it lies with the law. It is part of your deterministic knowledge. Let the law determine your actions. If you want to break the law (another deterministic act) you can and will be held responsible.

If your act criminally from irresistible compulsion, then you may declared insane, and be relieved from responsibility, but locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Determinism does not relieve you from responsibility. You will act as you are determined to act, but if others determine that to be punishible then you will be punished.

There are criminal laws which are deterministic in their direction. If you, for any reason whatever, except self-defense, choose to ignore that law, you will be determined guilty of a crime and pay the price. This law is part of the deterministic state before you commit the crime.

The responsibility does not lie with you, it lies with the law. It is part of your deterministic knowledge. Let the law determine your actions. If you want to break the law (another deterministic act) you can and will be held responsible.

If your act criminally from irresistible compulsion, then you may declared insane, and be relieved from responsibility, but locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane.

Who wrote those laws?
Humans or the proxy God?

 

[Quantum Quack]

https://www.conservapedia.com/List_of_atheist_shooters_and_serial_killers

A new study published in Nature Human Behaviour found that people around the world are predisposed to believe that atheists are more likely to be serial killers than religious believers — a bias even held by atheists themselves.

By the numbers: The study included 3,256 participants across 13 diverse countries that included highly secular nations like Finland and the Netherlands as well as highly religious ones like the United Arab Emirates and India.[22]​

Something about extreme atheism goes here....

 

[Write4U]

Who wrote those laws?
Humans or the proxy God?

Humans (in practice and codified) and many other animals (in practice). It is a social survival mechanism. It's not complicated. It didn't used to be that way, but humans learned to live together and respect each others rights, in order for all to survive as a group.

This is true in the rest of the mammalian species, except perhaps for the honey-badger, they are natural outlaws and will attack a lion for its prey. That's nasty.

As to god writing anything, that is the very problem with a god. There is no "shred" of evidence that god wrote anything, ever. God doesn't write, he uses interpreters and scribes. And who are god's interpreters and scribes? Humans, right?
And why do they differ from scripture to scripture? A language problem? There you have it in a nutshell...

 

[Quantum Quack]

Humans (in practice and codified) and many other animals (in practice). It is a social survival mechanism. It's not complicated. It didn't used to be that way, but humans learned to live together and respect each others rights, in order for all to survive as a group.

This is true in the rest of the mammalian species, except perhaps for the honey-badger, they are natural outlaws and will attack a lion for its prey. That's nasty.

As to god writing anything, that is the very problem with a god. There is no "shred" of evidence that god wrote anything, ever. God doesn't write, he uses interpreters and scribes. And who are god's interpreters and scribes? Humans, right?
And why do they differ from scripture to scripture? A language problem? There you have it in a nutshell...

I thought you said the deterministic universe was in control and that free will and self determination were an illusion?

 

[Write4U]

https://www.conservapedia.com/List_of_atheist_shooters_and_serial_killers

A new study published in Nature Human Behaviour found that people around the world are predisposed to believe that atheists are more likely to be serial killers than religious believers — a bias even held by atheists themselves.

By the numbers: The study included 3,256 participants across 13 diverse countries that included highly secular nations like Finland and the Netherlands as well as highly religious ones like the United Arab Emirates and India.[22]​

Something about extreme atheism goes here....

Aww, gimme a break, you are citing 3 psychopaths as representative of atheists?
And don't tell me you are just the messenger. If you are stupid enought to take this absurdity seriously, we have nothing to discuss.

Religion—while it has its origin in peace, the roots of spiritual practice have often dabbled in war. As far back as the Mesopotamian Ages, people have fought one another over religious dispute, often because they believed that their God was guiding them to do so, in order to conquer land and build their nation. Some stories are legends, others are just plain odd.

In no particular order, here are eight of the most famous or infamous religious wars of all time:

Israel vs Canaan
Since the time of Abraham, in 2,000 B.C., God had promised that his descendants would be granted a promised land. By 1,500 B.C., the promise was made good. While wandering the desert outside of Egypt (knowing that this was the land God had chosen for them to conquer), Moses sent 12 spies to the land of Canaan to size up their enemies.

Muslim Conquests
Too many died for any accurate count.

The Crusades
In an intermittent 200 year struggle to gain access to the Holy Land, starting in 1095 A.D., the Catholic Church–-via Pope Urban II–-authorized the first of many military campaigns, called the First Crusade. After centuries of competitive coexistence with the Arabs following the initial Muslim conquests, hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholics became crusaders, taking a public vow and receiving plenary indulgences from the church.
It is estimated that 1.7 million people died in total.

Children’s Crusade
a German (or French) boy named Nicholas, in which he convinced a group of 30,000 children and their families that he would lead them to the Mediterranean Sea, which would split and allow them safe passage to Jerusalem

After spending some time with Pope Innocent III, the boys were told to “be good and go home.” Nicholas did not survive the voyage home, perishing at the Alps. Back home, Nicholas’ father was arrested and hanged at the hands of angry families whose children had perished alongside his.

**** sound familiar?

Buddhist Uprising
While Buddhism is based on teachings of peace, there have been many moments of aggression in the religion’s history.

Second War of Kappel
It was fought in 1531 A.D. in the land of Switzerland. Seven thousand protestants and 2,000 Catholics fought. Against all odds, by the end of the war, the Catholic side was declared victorious. More than 700 people died, including a majority of civilians.

Lebanese Civil War
After 15 years of fighting and 150,000 estimated deaths, the war ended.

French Wars of Religion
This conflict wasn’t a single event, but exploded into many wars occurring between 1562 A.D. and 1598 A.D.. These wars were fought by the French Catholics and Protestants. By 1598 A.D., after which 2,000,000 to 4,000,000 people had died,

And you offer three criminally insane psychopaths as representative examples of atheist murderous behavior?

Frankly, it is you who scares me. You will find a reason to kill all atheists and most probably that reason will be inspired by your God and you will "act as His proxy!"

Go to hell with that insane observation and convice the devil ... his house is full of good pious theists who killed each other by the millions in the name of GOD !

 

[Write4U]

I thought you said the deterministic universe was in control and that free will and self determination were an illusion?

Really, humans are unable to recognize and learn deterministic laws? Your entire perspective is myopic in scope and interpretation.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Frankly, it is you who scares me. You will find a reason to kill all atheists and most probably that reason will be inspired by your God and you will "act as His proxy!"

Go to hell with that insane observation and convice the devil ... his house is full of good pious theists who killed each other by the millions in the name of GOD !

Sounds just like I was talking about ......well demonstrated... thanks.

 

[Write4U]

Just to get this information correct;

How Many People Have Been Killed in the Name of Religion?

• The Crusades: 6,000,000
  
  
• Thirty Years War: 11,500,000
  
  
• French Wars of Religion: 4,000,000
  
  
• Second Sudanese Civil War: 2,000,000
  
  
• Lebanese Civil War: 250,000
  
  
• Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000
  
  
• Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000
  
  
• Armenian Genocide: 1,500,000
  
  
• Rwandan Genocide: 800,000
  
  
• Eighty Years' War: 1,000,000
  
  
• Nigerian Civil War: 1,000,000
  
  
• Great Peasants' Revolt: 250,000
  
  
• First Sudanese Civil War: 1,000,000
  
  
• Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000
  
  
• The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000
  
  
• Islamic Terrorism Since 2000: 150,000
  
  
• Iraq War: 500,000
  
  
• US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"): 20,000,000
  
  
• Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000
  
  
• Aztec Human Sacrifice: 80,000
  
  
• AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000
  
  
• Spanish Inquisition: 5,000
  
  
• TOTAL: 195,035,000 deaths in the name of religion.
  

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/33tofh/how_many_people_have_been_killed_in_the_name_of/

Hang your head is shame mister. Theism has been the greatest cause for murder in the entire history of mankind.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Aww, gimme a break, you are citing 3 psychopaths as representative of atheists?
And don't tell me you are just the messenger. If you are stupid enought to take this absurdity seriously, we have nothing to discuss.

In no particular order, here are eight of the most famous or infamous religious wars of all time:
**** sound familiar?
And you offer three criminally insane psychopaths as representative examples of atheist murderous behavior?

Frankly, it is you who scares me. You will find a reason to kill all atheists and most probably that reason will be inspired by your God and you will "act as His proxy!"

Go to hell with that insane observation and convice the devil ... his house is full of good pious theists who killed each other by the millions in the name of GOD !

and for your information and to rectify what appears to be a deliberate falsehood
here is the list of not 3 but 9 psycho paths identified as atheists. from that link you are using to falsely claim only 3.

• Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Santa Fe, Texas shooter who killed at least 10 people at a public school, described himself as an atheist on his Facebook page (May 2018)[5]
• Gabriel Ross Parker, shooter at Marshall County High School in Kentucky who murdered two people (January 2018)[6][7][8]
• Devin Patrick Kelley, perpetrator of the Sutherland Springs, Texas shooting at First Baptist Church, murdered 26 people (November 2017)[9][10][11][12][13][14]
• Chris Harper Mercer, Umpqua Community College gunman (October 2015)[15][16]
• Craig Stephen Hicks, perpetator of the Chapel Hill Shootings (February 2015)[17]
• Jared Lee Loughner, perpetrator of the Tucson Shootings (January 2011)[18]
• Seung-Hui Cho, perpetrator of the Virginia Tech shootings (April 2007)[19]
• Jeffrey Dahmer, serial killer and sex offender responsible for the rape, murder, and dismemberment of seventeen men and boys (1978 - 1991)[1]
• James Oliver Huberty, perpetrator of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (July 1984)

 

[Write4U]

and for your information and to rectify what appears to be a deliberate falsehood
here is the list of not 3 but 9 psycho paths identified as atheists. from that link you are using to claim only 3.

• Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Santa Fe, Texas shooter who killed at least 10 people at a public school, described himself as an atheist on his Facebook page (May 2018)[5]
• Gabriel Ross Parker, shooter at Marshall County High School in Kentucky who murdered two people (January 2018)[6][7][8]
• Devin Patrick Kelley, perpetrator of the Sutherland Springs, Texas shooting at First Baptist Church, murdered 26 people (November 2017)[9][10][11][12][13][14]
• Chris Harper Mercer, Umpqua Community College gunman (October 2015)[15][16]
• Craig Stephen Hicks, perpetator of the Chapel Hill Shootings (February 2015)[17]
• Jared Lee Loughner, perpetrator of the Tucson Shootings (January 2011)[18]
• Seung-Hui Cho, perpetrator of the Virginia Tech shootings (April 2007)[19]
• Jeffrey Dahmer, serial killer and sex offender responsible for the rape, murder, and dismemberment of seventeen men and boys (1978 - 1991)[1]
• James Oliver Huberty, perpetrator of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (July 1984)

I can't believe this. Is this for real? All Atheist are psychopaths? All psychopaths are Atheists?
Compared to 195,035,000 murders committed by Theists in the name of religion?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I can't believe this. Is this for real? Atheist are psychopaths?

Compared to 195,035,000 murders committed by Theists in the name of religion?

Why are you conflating the issue?
We are talking about extreme atheism. We already know about extreme religious nut jobs...
Posters including one moderator, have claimed that there are no such thing as an extreme atheist. This is untrue. There are many examples, to choose from.

My Back peddle:
After posting the list I came to realize that the web site that provided them was heavily biased towards religious sentiment.
My excuse was that I was on a mobile device and didn't research the credibility factor to the extent I usually do.
I unreservedly apologize for making such an error.