Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Accepted, I really could not believe that you were putting that much faith in that article....
Fortunately I don't have to retract my list. It stands on historical merits.
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Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.
- Thread starter Quantum Quack
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Fortunately I don't have to retract my list. It stands on historical merits.
Major extreme atheists of modern times
Stalin was an atheist who killed millions...
Hitler is a little ambiguous but predominantly atheist with some sort of bizarre spirituality mixed in.
Mao Zedong - China cultural revolution - uncountable deaths associated with his atheistic purge of all religions.
China's current re-education program in Xinjaing supported by an atheist doctrine. Out come yet to be realized.... ( bad news that one IMO)
... and more, no doubt..
You know seriously, how can any one claim that extreme atheism is non-existent?
I don't think I've ever come across someone so happy to tell people that you've reported them.
But yes, I would be very interested to see the post where you say I have gloated such.
And when they arise I shall burden them.
But that is no excuse for your inability to put arguments together coherently, no excuse for you to argue from ignorance, fear and emotion as you do, and has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
When you spot any such arguments, feel free to point them out.
No vanity my end, sir.
Just a desire to see an end to the nonsense of your illogic, your insults, your provocation.
Yes, thanks, but it fails in the face truth.
And fails in your application of it.
You weild it like a pianist wearing welders gloves.
Seriously.
Your supposed "profiling" was simply laughable.
If you want to answer your own questions of me and then insult me based on the answers you allocate to me, let me know.
I don't hate your guts.
I pity you, but I don't hate you.
I dislike your dishonest approach to discussion, your fallacious arguments, and your ignorance.
But I don't hate you.
As Bells said, that would be to suggest there's an emotional investment.
And with you there just isn't any.
As to the topic at hand, the criticisms of your position have been provided.
Seek them out.
Have the decency and honesty to answer them.
So the argumentum ad Hitler comes out again.
Godwin's Law strikes again.
maybe you could address the topic instead of the poster Baldeee, just for once please...
I would also add this ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
... since many insist, through an ignorance of european history, the religion is the undeniable mutual opposite of science.
I am often surprised how atheists love to cavort in the travesties of many centuries ago while remaining blithely unaware of attack on the academia of science that occurred less than a century ago (an attack that would be the envy of any lutherian zealot of the middle ages, I might add)
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Secular wars never were about Atheism or religion in general.
All Religious wars were about Theism, where God told them it was a good idea.
You just cannot see the difference can you?
yes it is a fascinating insight especially if you consider Isaac Newton as an example.
Sir Isaac Newton FRS PRS (25 December 1642 – 20 March 1726/27) was an English mathematician, physicist, astronomer, theologian, and author (described in his own day as a "natural philosopher") who is widely recognized as one of the most influential scientists of all time, and a key figure in the scientific revolution. wiki....
As much as Write4U is ranting about his vehement opposition to anything religious he fails to realize that the "father of modern science" and yes even mathematics with the various and profound advances he made, was a staunch and devoted Christian and Christian theologian.
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religious wars perhaps but we are not talking about religious wars are we?
Ask Stalin about his efforts to eradicate religion...
Mao on his cultural necessity
Or Hitler on his final solution...
Extreme atheist like Stalin held no conscience, nor did Mao.
They honestly thought they were doing the world a favor...perhaps...
Little Kimmy from North Korea is another striking example...
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Even extreme Islam doesn't come remotely close to the atrocities committed by extreme atheists over the last 100 years or so...
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
I don't rant my vehement opposition to anything religious. I rant against the proselytizing and condemnation of non-religious people by ignorant religious people.
I am talking specifically about religious wars by Extreme Theists , to the tune of 190 million people, all because God told them it was a good idea. I don't think Newton ever advocated for war in the name of his God, did he?
Atheists never went to war in the name of God either, did they?
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
NOT IN THE NAME OF GOD. Please pay attention.
So?
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
You don't see the difference between going to war over land, oil or other natural resources, or just sheer power, and going to war over a mythological figure?
I don't care if you believe in Santa Claus, just don't stick a gun in my face and tell me that I should believe in Santa Claus, or you're gonna kill me.
Quantum Quack, I see you've given up any pretence of staying relevant to the thread you began.
To remind you: "Atheistic extremism is a belief system that requires a person to evangelize deterministic fatalism." - post #11.
And, according to you, this philosophy leads to belief in a "proxy-God".
Now, however, you have simply reverted to identifying atheists have held extreme political ideologies (or even biological views), and atheists who have done atrocious things, for the purpose of... what?
Showing that people can have extreme views, behave in an extreme way, and be atheist?
For the sake of stating the bleeding obvious: so what!
What has that to do with this thread?
Have you shown how any of your examples, starting with your laughable profiling of a troubled man, through to your Argumentum ad Hitler, have held a fatalist philosophy?
No.
Have you shown how any of your examples believe in a "proxy-God"?
No.
So why are you insisting on equating atheists who have done atrocious things with those who happen to hold a fatalist philosophy?
You simply refer to those who do hold a fatalist philosophy as "extreme atheist" and then go on to argue via guilt by association with other atheists who behaved in an extreme manner.
On what grounds are you actually being honest in this approach?
Seriously, how is anyone to take you as anything other than a troll?
To remind you: "Atheistic extremism is a belief system that requires a person to evangelize deterministic fatalism." - post #11.
And, according to you, this philosophy leads to belief in a "proxy-God".
Now, however, you have simply reverted to identifying atheists have held extreme political ideologies (or even biological views), and atheists who have done atrocious things, for the purpose of... what?
Showing that people can have extreme views, behave in an extreme way, and be atheist?
For the sake of stating the bleeding obvious: so what!
What has that to do with this thread?
Have you shown how any of your examples, starting with your laughable profiling of a troubled man, through to your Argumentum ad Hitler, have held a fatalist philosophy?
No.
Have you shown how any of your examples believe in a "proxy-God"?
No.
So why are you insisting on equating atheists who have done atrocious things with those who happen to hold a fatalist philosophy?
You simply refer to those who do hold a fatalist philosophy as "extreme atheist" and then go on to argue via guilt by association with other atheists who behaved in an extreme manner.
On what grounds are you actually being honest in this approach?
Seriously, how is anyone to take you as anything other than a troll?
Make a distinction between atheism and extreme atheism.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
And those attacks on the academia of science were perpetrated by who....extreme atheists?
And yes... I am glad to see you admit to religious atrocities for no other reason than in the name of God. Clarity at last.
I am sorry you feel that way... so sorry in fact that I couldn't read the rest of your post. Yeah I always read your post from the bottom up.....
May be when I get over your insult I shall attempt to respond....
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Yup
The issue is that its atheists who are the one's struggling to come to terms with the reality that their view, much like any other view you could shake a stick at, can also be a tool of annhilation in the hands of the right dictator meglomaniac, etc.
Ironically, thinking they are the sole proprietors of moderation and equanimity is amusingly quasi-religious ("Yes, we are the saved ones").
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That's a good question and worthy of some serious consideration not just for the purposes of answering your question but also for other more significant reasons that do not involve this forum.
As this thread has developed the terms extreme atheism have taken on more meaning, certainly more than originally intended or known about by me.
My take on it as of now...( subject to change in the future)
Atheism,
Normally atheism is a relatively benign belief system that simply states that the holder of such a belief holds no belief in the existence of a God. It suggest no violent or aggressive tendencies that could be intrinsic to that belief. There is no reason to hold a healthy atheist in any way as being wrong or deluded or anything of that nature as every one according to the Universal Charter of Human Rights (esp.article 18) which simply states that all are entitled to their beliefs. Article 19 which simply states the same for opinion and so on.
So atheism is just another branch of belief that in itself has no negative consequences if the rights of others are maintained and protected as per article 18 and 19 and so on.
Extreme atheism,
Atheism that violates those aforementioned rights can be classified as Extreme because the holder of such views refuses to accept other peoples rights to belief and opinion as they would their own rights.
In general terms Persons that instigated religious purges such as Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc would earn the title of extreme atheists. People who burn down churches, and slaughter religious folk because they hate religion (any) would be classed as atheist extremists.
In more specific terms atheist posters to this fora , social media etc who bully and ridicule people for holding religious beliefs would also fall under the extreme atheist label IMO.
***
Now to Secular Fatalism with its pre-determination.
Atheism,
Generally speaking, normal health atheism does not rule out self determination nor freewill and are prepared to accept that humans are responsible for their decisions, choices and behaviors. It may be true that they question the reality which is actually a healthy thing to do. An atheist can allow a more objective stance on the topic of free will and determinism... which then allows more productive discussion and understanding to be achieved.
Extreme Atheism,
In the context of the above, Extreme atheists of a certain atheistic persuasion will rule out self determination and freewill by way of adhering to what is known as Secular Fatalism with inherent predetermination. This obliges them to reject the notion of freewill and self determination with the only alternative being that those highly valued attributes of human life, welfare and self-determination, are illusions and a self deception, as no choice is truly available and that all is predetermined and unalterable.
The extreme atheist of this persuasion will promote it's belief as fact based purely on logic with out any evidential support and seek to persuade others to believe likewise by claiming it as fact and not theory.
As clearly demonstrated in this thread and in others, the ridicule and bullying tactics used to shut down productive conversation only goes to prove the extremes they are prepared to go to, to defend, as this thread seeks to prove, an indefensible position.
Extreme atheism in the form of secular fatalism/ predetermination, by it's own declaration that self determination is an illusion shifts responsibility for human activity past, present and future on to something else other than the humans in question.
It passes the responsibility for every thought, every action, every decision, past present and future on to a deterministic universe which then entitles that universe due to it's believed manifest ability to control human activity so thoroughly, a power only akin to that of a God.
So therefore logically,
Extreme atheism leads to a proxy God.
Which demonstrates a fundamental contradiction in secular fatalism/predeterminism rendering the theory incompatible with any reasonable objective thinker.
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