Exploding debt threatens America

[joepistole]

This is nonsense Medicare and Medicaid are funded by taxpayers but now a large porton of it is the Government soon the Government won't be able to fund it. as for the government pays a signficant portion of the total healthcare cost, its not paying mine. .

What is nonsense about you complaining about Obama's plan being paid with government funds. I just pointed out to you that the government is already paying a signficiant portion of the healthcare bill. Today government is the largest consumer of healthcare services in the country.

The government was paying your healthcare bill if your were in the service as you claim. The governement is not paying my healthcare bill either. But how is any of that relevant to this discussion...it is not.

Congress has always used the CBO numbers when voting on large projects. the OMB numbers have been way off, not sure why anyone would even take those numbers. .

And so it is now, on Monday the CBO will be releasing its numbers as they traditionally do with bills of this sort. So what has changed, absoutely NOTHING despite all of the Republican nonsense being spread to the ditto heads from the usual suspects.

I lived in Montreal, Quebec and I have seen first hand how bad it is. so don't even tell me about it and tell me how much it costs the tax payer. .

Maybe you did not like it, but there are millions of Canadians who do like their healthcare system. And what Obama is proposing by the way is not a Canadian like system..[/QUOTE]

We will have the same unemployment, taxes and growth, just like most other nations that have UH.

I suggest you do some more research, because there are serious differences in unemployment, taxes and growth. By the way, when you do tax comparisions you need to add in the money spent on healthcare in The United States for comparable comparisons. Other countries include healthcare expenses in their tax revenues, the US does not as we do not yet have universal healthcare. So when you do that comparison, TOTAL taxes on the average citizen are huge compared to places like Canada.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

What is nonsense about you complaining about Obama's plan being paid with government funds. I just pointed out to you that the government is already paying a signficiant portion of the healthcare bill. Today government is the largest consumer of healthcare services in the country.

My point is that if this program is passed the government will be shelling out even more money, there are even some that want to cover illegal immigration. everything the government runs some how needs more and more money.

The government was paying your healthcare bill if your were in the service as you claim. The governement is not paying my healthcare bill either. But how is any of that relevant to this discussion...it is not.

I was covered in the military because I was working for them!!!! if you don't find it relevant now, when Obamas plan if its passed, and you go to the hospital for a broken finger, don't be surprized if your there for five hours waiting in line.

And so it is now, on Monday the CBO will be releasing its numbers as they traditionally do with bills of this sort. So what has changed, absoutely NOTHING despite all of the Republican nonsense being spread to the ditto heads from the usual suspects

If congress says the CBO numbers don't matter, and follow the OMB numbers

Maybe you did not like it, but there are millions of Canadians who do like their healthcare system. And what Obama is proposing by the way is not a Canadian like system..

Sure

I suggest you do some more research, because there are serious differences in unemployment, taxes and growth. By the way, when you do tax comparisions you need to add in the money spent on healthcare in The United States for comparable comparisons. Other countries include healthcare expenses in their tax revenues, the US does not as we do not yet have universal healthcare. So when you do that comparison, TOTAL taxes on the average citizen are huge compared to places like Canada.

Most nations that I have seen that have universal healthcare usually have high unemployment, high taxes and slow growth.

 

[joepistole]

My point is that if this program is passed the government will be shelling out even more money, there are even some that want to cover illegal immigration. everything the government runs some how needs more and more money.
.

If the government does nothing, it will pay even more for these programs in the future. If it costs them 1.5 trillion to cut the healthcare bill in half...in line with other industrial nations, it will save the government .7 trillion per year..not a bad cost reduction.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

If the government does nothing, it will pay even more for these programs in the future. If it costs them 1.5 trillion to cut the healthcare bill in half...in line with other industrial nations, it will save the government .7 trillion per year..not a bad cost reduction.

LOL what color is that cool aid?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Originally Posted by joepistole
If the government does nothing, it will pay even more for these programs in the future. If it costs them 1.5 trillion to cut the healthcare bill in half...in line with other industrial nations, it will save the government .7 trillion per year..not a bad cost reduction.

Saving money not even spent yet? yes, what flavor is that cool aid?

Yes, a prime example of Obama savings;

In a small town in the United States, the little town looks almost
totally deserted. It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody
lives on credit.
Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town..
He enters the towns only hotel, lays a 100 Dollar Bill on the reception
counter as a deposit, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to
pick one.
The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Dollar Bill and runs to pay his debt
to the butcher.
The Butcher takes the 100 Dollar Bill, and runs to pay his debt to the
pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the 100 Dollar Bill, and runs to pay his debt to
the supplier of his feed and fuel.
The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Dollar Bill and runs to pay
his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times, gave her
"services" on credit.
The hooker runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the 100 Dollar
Bill to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when
she brought her clients there.
The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Dollar Bill back on the counter
so that the rich tourist will not suspect anything.
At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms,
and takes back his 100 Dollar Bill, saying that he did not like any of
the rooms, and leaves town.
No one earned anything.......... However, the whole town is now without
debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism..
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government
under President Barack Hussein Obama and the State of California under
Governor Arnold are doing business today and actually in California for
a long time already.

 

[joepistole]

LOL what color is that cool aid?

So is that the best you can do? When fact and reasoning run contrary to your opinion, you go to the koolaid nonsense.

I still await a rational well grounded response. But I think I will be waiting a very long time as you are sounding more and more like a ditto head...see Buffalo Roam.

 

[Dr Mabuse]

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

So is that the best you can do? When fact and reasoning run contrary to your opinion, you go to the koolaid nonsense.

I still await a rational well grounded response. But I think I will be waiting a very long time as you are sounding more and more like a ditto head...see Buffalo Roam.

Your claim is complete nonsense that "If it costs them 1.5 trillion to cut the healthcare bill in half...in line with other industrial nations, it will save the government .7 trillion per year" we will spend 1.5 trillion to cut $2.4 trillion in half to .7 trillion and we will cover more people. I wonder what the CBO numbers will show.

 

[superstring01]

Saving money not even spent yet? yes, what flavor is that cool aid?

What are you talking about Buffalo? The debt Bush inherited was $5.6 trillion-ish. He left it at almost $11 trillion. The Republicans ran the Congress for six of those eight years and NONE of Bush's supplamental fundings were ever denied by the Democratic Congress the last two years.

Why all the malaise now, but none then?

This is called solipsism. The bad deeds of the people you like are swept under the carpet, ignored while the bad deeds of the people you don't like are trumpeted through town.

How is this not hypocrisy?

~String

 

[joepistole]

Your claim is complete nonsense that "If it costs them 1.5 trillion to cut the healthcare bill in half...in line with other industrial nations, it will save the government .7 trillion per year" we will spend 1.5 trillion to cut $2.4 trillion in half to .7 trillion and we will cover more people. I wonder what the CBO numbers will show.

If you think that is nonsense, you must have gone the the Enron school of accounting. Why do you claim it is nonsense to make healthcare costs in line with what other industrial nations are paying for healthcare?

Let me remind you the goal is to improve quality (which has been lagging) and reduce cost. What is so radical or unreasonable about that....notihing as far as I can see.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

What are you talking about Buffalo? The debt Bush inherited was $5.6 trillion-ish. He left it at almost $11 trillion. The Republicans ran the Congress for six of those eight years and NONE of Bush's supplamental fundings were ever denied by the Democratic Congress the last two years.

Why all the malaise now, but none then?

This is called solipsism. The bad deeds of the people you like are swept under the carpet, ignored while the bad deeds of the people you don't like are trumpeted through town.

How is this not hypocrisy?

~String

Really?

solipsism?

I am not happy with the spending of George, never have been, the RNC tried to out Democrat the Democrats in spending, but just look at your own statement,

"and NONE of Bush's supplamental fundings were ever denied by the Democratic Congress the last two years."

That is what I am poking at joe, and the rest of the liberals, the fact that the Democrats didn't do a thing to slow down spending under George, on social programs before they regained control of Congress, or when they took control of Congress, and the fact that the Democrats are now ramping up spending to levels never seen in the history of the world, if anything, the person's that you should be having a discusstions about solipsism with, are the liberals, especially joe and pj to start with.

This goes back a lot farther then George, like all the way back to FDR and His New Deal, which didn't do a thing to get us out of the Depression, it just stagnated the depression until WWII, and now Obama is running FDR's play book on steroids.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

If you think that is nonsense, you must have gone the the Enron school of accounting. Why do you claim it is nonsense to make healthcare costs in line with what other industrial nations are paying for healthcare?

Because if you do what other countries are doing you will have what they have. slow growth, high taxes, high costs of living and high unemployment rates. why don't you look at those numbers? every program the government has is loosing money, not just that but the costs are usually out of control in time.

Let me remind you the goal is to improve quality (which has been lagging) and reduce cost. What is so radical or unreasonable about that....notihing as far as I can see.

Have you ever seen the quality yourself? Canadian Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, who is battling breast cancer went to America for treatment. now why did she have to come United States to seek medical care if Canada has a healthcare system because of its quality?


Source

 

[joepistole]

Because if you do what other countries are doing you will have what they have. slow growth, high taxes, high costs of living and high unemployment rates. why don't you look at those numbers? every program the government has is loosing money, not just that but the costs are usually out of control in time.]

Well first welcome to The United States we have all of those things as well. We are a mature economy, and so are the other industrial nations. So what do you expect. The slow economy is not a measure of taxes or unemployment it is result. When you say every government program is loosing money, that is more than just a wee bit broad. You need to get more detailed than that.

Overall do I like government involvement in private affairs, no. I hate it. But I think the biggest offenders are state and local governments...personally I cannot stand them. They are bureacratic and very unfriendly...don't know anything about customer service or who pays their bills.

Have you ever seen the quality yourself? Canadian Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, who is battling breast cancer went to America for treatment. now why did she have to come United States to seek medical care if Canada has a healthcare system because of its quality?

Source

Again, under the Obama plan she could have this surgery in the US. She wanted to save her nipple...nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing in the Obama proposal that excludes same. Again, the system being proposed by Obama is not the Canadian model.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

Well first welcome to The United States we have all of those things as well. We are a mature economy, and so are the other industrial nations. So what do you expect. The slow economy is not a measure of taxes or unemployment it is result. When you say every government program is loosing money, that is more than just a wee bit broad. You need to get more detailed than that..

My point is that taxes and unemployment are high even when we are in economic growth for most of those nations. Canada, France, England, Spain ect. name one fed program thats making money, how is that?

Overall do I like government involvement in private affairs, no. I hate it. But I think the biggest offenders are state and local governments...personally I cannot stand them. They are bureacratic and very unfriendly...don't know anything about customer service or who pays their bills.

As far as states usually its the big blue states that are out of control spending, CA, NJ, MI, MA ect. you sound like Obama when you say you hate government involvement in private affairs. like what he said about involvment in the auto industry.

Again, under the Obama plan she could have this surgery in the US. She wanted to save her nipple...nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing in the Obama proposal that excludes same. Again, the system being proposed by Obama is not the Canadian model.

Again Obama wants a system like Canada but rich Canadians and other rich people from other nations are coming here for help. you clam that its not the same model as other nations but you like to use them and compare it to ours in terms of spending.

 

[joepistole]

My point is that taxes and unemployment are high even when we are in economic growth for most of those nations. Canada, France, England, Spain ect. name one fed program thats making money, how is that?

As far as states usually its the big blue states that are out of control spending, CA, NJ, MI, MA ect. you sound like Obama when you say you hate government involvement in private affairs. like what he said about involvment in the auto industry.

Again Obama wants a system like Canada but rich Canadians and other rich people from other nations are coming here for help. you clam that its not the same model as other nations but you like to use them and compare it to ours in terms of spending.

You are not getting it. The Obama system is not at all like the Canadian systme or any other system in the industrial world. It is a hybrid system. It is not a single payer system. It is a system where all are required to have healthcare insurance either a private plan or a government plan.

Most foriegners come here for experimental medical treatments. The US is very good with cutting edge medical research...not so good with the average day to day practice of medicine. And by the way, most primary medical research is sponsered by the federal goverment.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

You are not getting it. The Obama system is not at all like the Canadian systme or any other system in the industrial world. It is a hybrid system. It is not a single payer system. It is a system where all are required to have healthcare insurance either a private plan or a government plan..

Oh God does thisd plan cover those that are uninsured?

Most foriegners come here for experimental medical treatments. The US is very good with cutting edge medical research...not so good with the average day to day practice of medicine. And by the way, most primary medical research is sponsered by the federal goverment.

experimental medical treatments???

 

[iceaura]

Most nations that I have seen that have universal healthcare usually have high unemployment, high taxes and slow growth.

The US has high taxes (for the lower classes), high unemployment (ditto), and slow growth (of the lower class economy, negative growth).

As long as we're paying the price, we may as well get the benefits.

btw: By some accounting (interest costs on VA expenditures, etc) Americans are already paying enough in taxes for medical care to install Canada's system nationwide and cover everyone with it. So if that's your standard (it would be an improvement over the US current standard) it's at least theoretically achievable without a nickel in extra taxes.

Again Obama wants a system like Canada but rich Canadians and other rich people from other nations are coming here for help.

We have the finest medical care in the world for the sufficiently rich. They'll be OK - I'm not worried about them.

Many rich Americans are already going to Thailand and other places for elective surgery, now. If somehow the rich found themselves deprived of the level of medical care they expect, I'm sure they could make arrangements.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

The US has high taxes (for the lower classes), high unemployment (ditto), and slow growth (of the lower class economy, negative growth).

As long as we're paying the price, we may as well get the benefits..

We have it now because of the resseion we are in, but we usually have lower unemployment, better growth and lower taxes compared to those other nations with UH.

btw: By some accounting (interest costs on VA expenditures, etc) Americans are already paying enough in taxes for medical care to install Canada's system nationwide and cover everyone with it..

The United States spends more on technology than Canada. settlements and legal fees are much higher in America also.

Many rich Americans are already going to Thailand and other places for elective surgery, now. If somehow the rich found themselves deprived of the level of medical care they expect, I'm sure they could make arrangements.

Not many, I think that number would jump if we get this UH system here. people are going there and places like India because the dollar can buy more there unlike Canadians coming here that claim its free or everyone is covered.

 

[pjdude1219]

here is an idea crank up the tax rates, pay off our debt, reduce the tax rates to a point where we can meet all are obligation plus say 2 to 5% to create a rainy day fund. Do that taxes would probably end up being lower than they are know and we have surpluses to boot.

 

[joepistole]

here is an idea crank up the tax rates, pay off our debt, reduce the tax rates to a point where we can meet all are obligation plus say 2 to 5% to create a rainy day fund. Do that taxes would probably end up being lower than they are know and we have surpluses to boot.

Well PJ I think Shrub #2 sealed that fate. It has to happen but it is a m matter of when. And the tax is going to have to be on the upper end of the income scale. As the guy in the middle and at the lower end of the scale is tapped out.