Exploding debt threatens America

[iceaura]

Fox News, the New York Post and talk radio. thats the authoritarian right! everything for years is left wing.

Nope. Guess again. Hint: Dan Rather got fired. Brit Hume even, let alone Joe Scarborough or the like, still have their jobs.

One thing about never seeing any left wing stuff, is that you don't know what it looks like.

Hence my specific examples of what's missing - wage news, labor oriented economic stats generally, leftist approaches to issues.

Here's an example of what's present:

Shrub #2 inherited a small recession and he endured a terrorist attack. His leadership in both cases was deplorable..
”
Look at the numbers. as for his leadership, he had a high approval rating a few years later.

How, in your opinion, would someone screwing up (or just screwing the country - we still don't know) as badly as W was from day one, get high approval ratings from the general public?

Do you think the media was involved?

For example: can you name a major media organization in the US that broadcast the lefty view of Mission Accomplished Day - that America had really screwed the pooch, we were entering a quagmire with no good way out, and Presidential clown-box strutting of one's package in military clothing was a banana republic embarrassment for the whole country?

 

[joepistole]

We cant even get the government to initate secured borders and the American people wanted this for years. how much would that save us? "

I think your off topic here. But the reason the borders have not been secured is because both parties do not want the borders secured for their own reasons.

government-run health care system"

In case you have not noticed, the government is currently running our healthcare system...regulating who can practice medicine, who can sell drug, what treatments are acceptable, medical training and supply of healthcare professionals, making illegal importing prescription drugs...etc.

Fear mongering? debt as a percent of GDP is much worst now then when he was elected. just look at the 2 trillion in spending or the 1.5 trillion in healthcare or his 3.7 budget. Look at the numbers. as for his leadership, he had a high approval rating a few years later."

All that means nothing....it is all jibberish.

This is nonsense. we were discussing at the start of elections and who started off in a worst economy in modern times. would the Great Depression be not as bad as Obamas "collapse of the financial system"

Oh yes it would have been had not the US government intervened. The one right thing Shrub #2 did was TARP. Obama still has a mess on his hands and things could still turn south. A lot remains to be done, including the stimulus and getting the US back on the path of fiscal stability and responsiblity...back to where we had a surplus instead of a deficit (See Clinton whe he left Shrub #2 with a half billion dollar budget surplus.)

 

[jpappl]

"Hence my specific examples of what's missing - wage news, labor oriented economic stats generally, leftist approaches to issues. "

They have successfully steered the conversation away from these ( important issues )to:

Guns, abortion, taxes, and drugs. Wedge issues are created constantly.

But this is less a right/left issue as it is a money, monopoly issue.

That is probably why both the left and right can find fault in the media for being biased.

The general populace is not improved by this, just a few get the spoils.

 

[superstring01]

Actually depending on the country the Great Depression lasted until 1941, the U.S. was one of the last Countries to come out of the Depression, because of FDR's policy of government intervention.

That's quite a statement. Is it supported by anything of substance?

One of the key reasons why the Great Depression didn't end for the USA until '41 is that we didn't enter the war until then. While Roosavelt's programs didn't necessarily end the Great Depression (and, in fact, only had a small direct effect on the economy) most Americans supported his programs because they gave people hope the depression would end soon. I know that's a weird and ambiguous term, but the economy is basically the people's willingness to spend money. The fact that the president was adding to their emotional security had a great indirect effect on their willingness to restart the economy.

~String

 

[Cowboy]

Hint: Dan Rather got fired.

If you're referring to his position as anchor on The CBS Evening News, he stepped down due to fallout from the "Rathergate" scandal.

 

[Cowboy]

How perceptive of you to notice that it was WWII that really brought the US out of depression and put the economy on a strong growth track. Now let me ask you why that was so? Let me ask you what happened to the national debt during WWII period as well.

Is the act of having someone declaring war on you stimulative to the economy? What was it about WWII that stimulated the economy?

Way to totally dodge my point. FDR didn't figure out a solution to the Great Depression (again, unless you believe he allowed Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor to get us into the war).

War was declared on us by way of the Pearl Harbor attack. As a result, America had to rebuild most of the Pacific fleet as well as supply troops for the European theater of the war. This obviously would create jobs. There were also undoubtedly job vacancies in non-military areas resulting from all the guys who went off to fight.

I'm not sure what happened to the national debt at that point, and it's irrelevant to my point in any case.

 

[Cowboy]

The authoritarian right controls the major, mass market radio and TV outlets, and even fairly extreme views are repeatedly aired before large audiences nationwide.

Are you serious? If so, you must have VERY different TV stations where you live than I have here.

 

[joepistole]

Way to totally dodge my point. FDR didn't figure out a solution to the Great Depression (again, unless you believe he allowed Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor to get us into the war).

War was declared on us by way of the Pearl Harbor attack. As a result, America had to rebuild most of the Pacific fleet as well as supply troops for the European theater of the war. This obviously would create jobs. There were also undoubtedly job vacancies in non-military areas resulting from all the guys who went off to fight.

I'm not sure what happened to the national debt at that point, and it's irrelevant to my point in any case.

What point do you think I dodged?

FDR was never a supporter of Keyensian Economics. It was only shortly before WWII that Keyens ideas were implemented by several major powers that the economy moved out of depression. Do you need a lesson in Keyensian Economics?

The point is the rescue plan and the stimulus plans were and are needed.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Are you serious? If so, you must have VERY different TV stations where you live than I have here.

ice lives in a alternative universe, Antichthon,

Journey to the Far Side of the Sun​

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

Nope. Guess again. Hint: Dan Rather got fired. Brit Hume even, let alone Joe Scarborough or the like, still have their jobs.
Rather was cought in a lie. any pole you look at about the media bias shows that most people see the left wing bias

Here's an example of what's present: How, in your opinion, would someone screwing up (or just screwing the country - we still don't know) as badly as W was from day one, get high approval ratings from the general public?

I could say the same about whats going on with Obama and all his czars

Do you think the media was involved?

For example: can you name a major media organization in the US that broadcast the lefty view of Mission Accomplished Day

Just about every news source brought up the Mission Accomplished Day. that speach was about major combat operatioins in Iraq, he never said the military operatioins were all over. it was a time in the war that major attacks such as air strikes from that carrier were done and the Iraqi army fell apart . most liberals could tell the difference between war and a conflict, such as what we are seeing now, the military was never trained to win conflicts just wars.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

In case you have not noticed, the government is currently running our healthcare system...regulating who can practice medicine, who can sell drug, what treatments are acceptable, medical training and supply of healthcare professionals, making illegal importing prescription drugs...etc.

The Government is regulating healthcare system

Oh yes it would have been had not the US government intervened. The one right thing Shrub #2 did was TARP. Obama still has a mess on his hands and things could still turn south. A lot remains to be done, including the stimulus and getting the US back on the path of fiscal stability and responsiblity...back to where we had a surplus instead of a deficit (See Clinton whe he left Shrub #2 with a half billion dollar budget surplus.)

The T.AR.P. plan was the only project I supported. but his other projects are a waste of money and will probly cause more harm then good. Clinton had a surplus becaue republicans had control of Congress and there was a tech buble at that time so revenues were good.

Obamas math is so bad that they said they don't want to use CBO numbers anymore.

 

[joepistole]

The Government is regulating healthcare system

The T.AR.P. plan was the only project I supported. but his other projects are a waste of money and will probly cause more harm then good. Clinton had a surplus becaue republicans had control of Congress and there was a tech buble at that time so revenues were good.

Obamas math is so bad that they said they don't want to use CBO numbers anymore.

Oh I see, Obama's re-regulation of the healthcare system is taking over healthcare. But the current system of state and federal control over healthcare is just regulation.

Show me where Obama said he does not want to use CBO numbers. I know Fox has been spreading this rumor. But I have yet to hear it from Obama or any of his minions.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

Oh I see, Obama's re-regulation of the healthcare system is taking over healthcare. But the current system of state and federal control over healthcare is just regulation..

Oh so paying for and running the healthcare system is just regulations

Show me where Obama said he does not want to use CBO numbers. I know Fox has been spreading this rumor. But I have yet to hear it from Obama or any of his minions.

He hasn't been using them but insted the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) numbers. the price tage is so big many that support Universal healthcare say that they should not use the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office’s numbers.

“We’re going to look at OMB and CBO and make our own decision as to who is right,” said Sen. Barbara Boxer.

 

[iceaura]

Are you serious? If so, you must have VERY different TV stations where you live than I have here.

Same stations, different viewer.

People who can't tell socialism from fascism are handicapped when it comes to evaluating righty/lefty bias in newscasts. And "authoritarian/libertarian" is off the scale of perception altogether, apparently.

But just as a check: can you, based on the information you get from the major media, discuss median hourly wages and executive compensation in the US in the same way you can discuss stock prices and Federal Reserve interest rates - you know, up and down and which Presidents were good for them and what the overall patterns have been and so forth?

And if not, why not?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yes Stimulus and Obama Math;

A Stimulus Story:

In a small town in the United States, the little town looks almost

totally deserted. It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody

lives on credit.

Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town..



He enters the towns only hotel, lays a 100 Dollar Bill on the reception

counter as a deposit, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to

pick one.



The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Dollar Bill and runs to pay his debt

to the butcher.



The Butcher takes the 100 Dollar Bill, and runs to pay his debt to the

pig farmer.



The pig farmer takes the 100 Dollar Bill, and runs to pay his debt to

the supplier of his feed and fuel.


The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Dollar Bill and runs to pay

his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times, gave her

"services" on credit.




The hooker runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the 100 Dollar

Bill to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when

she brought her clients there.


The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Dollar Bill back on the counter

so that the rich tourist will not suspect anything.


At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms,

and takes back his 100 Dollar Bill, saying that he did not like any of

the rooms, and leaves town.


No one earned anything.......... However, the whole town is now without

debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism..



And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government

under President Barack Hussein Obama and the State of California under

Governor Arnold are doing business today and actually in California for

a long time already.

 

[joepistole]

Oh so paying for and running the healthcare system is just regulations .

What do you think it is doing today? It is regulating as previously described. It is paying for it (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid, Federal employees, etc). The US government pays a signficant portion of the total healthcare cost today.

So your redefintion is, if the Republicans want to change something it is regulating it. If anyone else wants to change something, it is taking over and running the industry.

He hasn't been using them but insted the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) numbers. the price tage is so big many that support Universal healthcare say that they should not use the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office’s numbers.

“We’re going to look at OMB and CBO and make our own decision as to who is right,” said Sen. Barbara Boxer.

It seems to me the comment you quoted from Barbara Boxer contradicts your earlier statement that they are not going to use CBO. Boxers statement indicates that they are going to look at the CBO's numbers and make an assesment of their veracity in addition to the numbers from OMB. Seems like a logical approach to me. I would never accept any numbers as truth without putting them to the test.

It seems like a much better approach than that used by the Republicans to pass Medicare Prescription Drug Bill.

The US is currently paying more than twice what any other industrial nation is paying for healthcare and other industrial nations provide complete healthcare insurance for ALL of their citizens. So why can we not in the US provide healtcare for at a similar cost to our citizens?

Are healthcare costs growing at more than twice inflation rates and ususally at double digit rates sustainable? What would you do to contain healthcare costs?

If Obama is successful, we should see healthcare costs fall in line with those of other industrial nations over the course of the next ten years. That would be a huge benefit to our economy and federal budget.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I love the faith that joe puts into the Democrats and government, according to Obamas numbers, the cost of Universal Health Care is in the $1.5 trillion dollar range, now when has it ever happened that the actual cost to a government program hasn't been underestamated by at least a factor of 2, we are broke already, and Obama has already added $1.8 billion dollars of deficit.

Now He is going to add another, "at His estamate", $1.4 trillion dollars of deficit to impliment Universal Health Care?

Yes joe, just how much faster can the government implement the Keynesian Theory, Obama has out spent even FDR's whole 12 years, in a 100 days, and it took 12 years and a World War to break the depression that was strangling America, and we were the last nation to get out of the depression, yes is that what your suggesting, that is were Obama is going.

 

[superstring01]

Obama has out spent even FDR's whole 12 years, in a 100 days, and it took 12 years and a World War to break the depression that was strangling America, and we were the last nation to get out of the depression, yes is that what your suggesting, that is were Obama is going.

Well, duh, Buffalo. The dollar is worth less than a tenth of what it was back in the 1940's.

www.measuringworth.com shows the comparative worth of a US dollar from 2008 when compared to 1945:

Six Ways to Compute the Relative Value of a U.S. Dollar Amount, 1774 to Present

Current data is only available till 2008. In 2008, $1,000.00 from 1945 is worth:

$11,961.28 using the Consumer Price Index
$9,801.98 using the GDP deflator
$21,045.51 using the unskilled wage
$29,385.82 using the nominal GDP per capita
$63,938.14 using the relative share of GDP​

The 2008 observations for U.S. nominal GDP, nominal GDP per capita, population and GDP deflator are preliminary numbers that will change.
Data for consumer bundle is only available through 2007.
Data for unskilled wage is only available through 2007.

~String

 

[joepistole]

I love the faith that joe puts into the Democrats and government, according to Obamas numbers, the cost of Universal Health Care is in the $1.5 trillion dollar range, now when has it ever happened that the actual cost to a government program hasn't been underestamated by at least a factor of 2, we are broke already, and Obama has already added $1.8 billion dollars of deficit.

Now He is going to add another, "at His estamate", $1.4 trillion dollars of deficit to impliment Universal Health Care?

Yes joe, just how much faster can the government implement the Keynesian Theory, Obama has out spent even FDR's whole 12 years, in a 100 days, and it took 12 years and a World War to break the depression that was strangling America, and we were the last nation to get out of the depression, yes is that what your suggesting, that is were Obama is going.

All good hype, but let's put this into perspective. In 2007 the US spent 2.4 Trillion dollars on healthcare and of that 2.4 Trillion the federal government picked up about a trillion of those dollars.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

So if we can reduce those costs to bring them in line with the next highest cost industrial nation, the drain on our federal budget would drop by about seventy percent for a annual savings of about .7 trillion dollars. So if it costs 1.5 trillion to save .7 trillion dollars each and every year therafter...seems like a no brainer to me.

And mega dittos to String for explaining the relative value of the dollar and the flaw in Buffalo's comparisons.

 

[unexplained_mysterie]

What do you think it is doing today? It is regulating as previously described. It is paying for it (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid, Federal employees, etc). The US government pays a signficant portion of the total healthcare cost today.

This is nonsense Medicare and Medicaid are funded by taxpayers but now a large porton of it is the Government soon the Government won't be able to fund it. as for the government pays a signficant portion of the total healthcare cost, its not paying mine.

It seems to me the comment you quoted from Barbara Boxer contradicts your earlier statement that they are not going to use CBO. Boxers statement indicates that they are going to look at the CBO's numbers and make an assesment of their veracity in addition to the numbers from OMB. Seems like a logical approach to me. I would never accept any numbers as truth without putting them to the test..

Congress has always used the CBO numbers when voting on large projects. the OMB numbers have been way off, not sure why anyone would even take those numbers.

The US is currently paying more than twice what any other industrial nation is paying for healthcare and other industrial nations provide complete healthcare insurance for ALL of their citizens. So why can we not in the US provide healtcare for at a similar cost to our citizens.

I lived in Montreal, Quebec and I have seen first hand how bad it is. so don't even tell me about it and tell me how much it costs the tax payer.

If Obama is successful, we should see healthcare costs fall in line with those of other industrial nations over the course of the next ten years. That would be a huge benefit to our economy and federal budget.

We will have the same unemployment, taxes and growth, just like most other nations that have UH.