Ex-Gay Ministry Works Just Fine

I really don't understand why gays are so opposed to ex-gays. Doesn't a person have a right to be ex-gay if they want to? And then there are people that say "ex-gay" doesn't exist. I really, honestly, do not understand why the ex-gay movement would even exist if this is true. I've heard all the rationalisations, but they just don't add up. Example:

A booth representing ex-gay teachers at the National Education
Association's convention in Orlando drew protests Friday from gay
organizations that called it part of a plan to infiltrate the schools
with anti-gay teachings.

"They have a right to be there, but it's part of a larger strategy of
getting into schools and misinform people," said Wayne Besen,
executive director of Truth Wins Out, a Miami Beach-based group that
opposes ex-gay ministries.

At the Ex-Gay Educators Caucus booth, the groups' founder said the
caucus was created in response to the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and
Transgender Caucus, which also had a booth at the convention.

"We're here because they're here," said Jeralee Smith, a California
special-education teacher whose two-year-old caucus has about 30
members.

Now tell me why an ex-gay (that means people that are struggling or have struggled with same sex attraction), tell me why in the hell they would even want to be at the NEA and offer an alternative if reorientation therapy doesn't work. I'm sorry but this just doesn't add up. Did they lie about ever having same sex attraction?


Wayne Besen's group, TruthWinsOut and a couple of other advocacy groups had a news conference in front of the Orlando Convention Center protesting the presence of the ex-gay educator caucus. Today's Orlando Sentinel reports on the news conference and reaction from the ex-gay educators caucus.

Besen, showing his own behavioral problems, was escorted from the convention because of inappropriate behavior, the social misfit that he is -- he verbally attacked Dr. Thortmorton:

A little later, there was a verbal dispute near the ex-gay educator's caucus booth, one result of which was Wayne being escorted out of the convention center by some of Orlando's finest law enforcement. Word is that the F-word was flying. Be interested in Wayne's account of the fracas.

Look who is being intolerant and uncivil -- the liberal left of course, and the police have to do their job.

Well what can I say? The "truth-won-out" allright, and Besen was kicked out because of uncivil behavior.
 
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sofseal.gif


State of Hawaii Report of the Commission
on Sexual Orientation
and the Law

Chapter 5 Pt2
(MINORITY OPINION, continued)

E.Homosexuality is a Psychological Pathology Which is Not Equivalent to Heterosexuality; Many Homosexuals are Cured of Their Homosexual Desires Every Year, and Therefore, Homosexuality is Not an Immutable Trait, but is Instead a Conduct-Based Psychological Disorder.

1.Homosexuality is Not Equivalent to Heterosexuality and Homosexuality Should not Receive the Benefits and Protection Afforded Heterosexuality.

2.Homosexuality was Removed as a Pathology from the American Psychological Association in 1973 as a Result of Political, Not Medical or Psychological Considerations

3.Homosexuality Is Still Listed In The International Diagnostics Manual As A Psychological Pathology

Although the American Psychiatric Association de- listed homosexuality as a psychological pathology in 1973 on political grounds, the World Health Organization still catalogues homosexuality as a disorder. The International Classification of Diseases, 9th Revision (ICD-9) published by the World Health Organization, contains a chapter on "Mental Disorders" including "Section 302, Sexual Deviations and Disorders." Section 302.0 deals with homosexual conflict disorder and lesbianism(12).

ref: Manual of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases, Injuries, and Causes of Death, 9th Revision, World Health Organization, Geneva, Switzerland; Section 302 also deals with Section 302.1 entitled Zoophilia deals with bestiality; Section 302.2 entitled Pedophilia deals with sex with children; Section 302.3 entitled Transvestism; Section 302.4 entitled Exhibitionism; Section 302.5 entitled Trans-sexualism; Section 302.6 entitled Disorders of psychosexual identity dealing with feminism in boys and gender identity disorder of childhood; Section 302.7 entitled Psychosexual dysfunction dealing with psychosexual dysfunction, unspecified (302.70), with inhibited sexual desire (302.71), with inhibited sexual excitement (302.72), with inhibited female orgasm (302.73), with inhibited male orgasm (302.74), with premature ejaculation (302.75), with functional dyspareunia (302.76), and with other specified psychosexual dysfunctions (302.79). DO WE INTEND TO GRANT CIVIL RIGHTS ON THESE GROUNDS AS WELL? See the story of Martine Rothblatt, a lawyer who views the world without borders. She is legally married to her lesbian lover (the only ones in the U.S. because she used to be a man when she married her wife, and then after years of marriage the two decided it would be fun for them to spend the rest of their lives as lesbians. Martine received a sex change operation.) The story is a cover story to the National Law Journal, June 12, 1995.


4.Mental Health Professionals Say that Homosexuals Can Change

Dr. Gerard van den Aardweg (Ph.D in psychology from University of Amsterdam; taught in universities in Netherlands and Brazil) writes:

...Indeed since relatively few homosexuals seriously try to change and few therapists encourage them to do so, the notion that homosexuality is irreversible is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If nobody tries, nobody will succeed....Why would we take a fatalistic attitude toward the possibilities of improvement of homosexuality when an acceptable percentage improves substantially? (18)

ref: on Appendix G: How To Be Your Own Best Friend (New York: Lark Publishing Company, 1971, pgs. 22-23); Comprehensive Group Psychotherapy, edited by Harold I. Kaplan and Benjamin J. Saddock (Baltimore: The Williams and Wilkins Company, 1971, pg. 521); Dr. Charles Socarides, "Homosexuality," American Handbook of Psychiatry, 2nd edition, Vol. 3 (New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1974, pg. 308); Samuel B. Hadden, "Treatment of Male Homosexuals in Groups," The International Journal of Group Psychotherapy, XVI, No.1 (January 1966, pg. 14); "A Way Out for Homosexuals," Harper's Magazine (March 1967, pg. 107); Changing Homosexuality in the Male (New York: McGraw- Hill Book Company, 1970); The Primal Scream (New York: Dell Publishing Company, 1970); Father John F. Harvey, The Homosexual Person: New Thinking in Pastoral Care (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987, pg. 76); "Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances," Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry II, second edition, edited by Alfred M. Freedman, Harold I. Kaplan, and Benjamin J. Sadock (Baltimore: The Williams & Wilkins Company, 1975, pg. 1519); Homosexuality in Perspective (Boston: Little, Brown 251); Homosexuality (New York: Jason Aronson, 1978); What You Should Know About Homosexuality, edited by Charles W. Keysor (Grand Rapids: Zondervan


Dr. Ruth Tiffany Barnhouse (M.D. from Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons; clinical assistant psychiatrist at Harvard University; member of the Ethics Committee of the Massachusetts Psychiatric Society) writes:

The frequent claim by "gay" activists that it is impossible for homosexuals to change their orientation is categorically untrue. Such a claim accuses scores of conscientious, responsible psychiatrists and psychologists of falsifying their data(19).

ref: What Is a Christian View of Homosexuality?", Circuit Rider, February, 1984, pg. 12.


Dr. Reuben Fine (Ph.D in clinical psychology from USC; Director of the New York Center for Psychoanalytic Training; visiting professor at Adelphi University) writes:

I have recently had occasion to review the results of psychotherapy with homosexuals, and been surprised by the findings. It is paradoxical that even though the politically active homosexual group denied the possibility of change, all studies from Schrenck-Notzing on have found positive effects, virtually regardless of the kind of treatment used... (p. 84) Whether with hypnosis...,psychoanalysis of any variety, educative psychotherapy, behavior therapy, and/or simple educational procedures, a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual.... If the patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality. In this connection public information is of the greatest importance. The misinformation spread by certain circles that "homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy" does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women. (Pgs. 85-86.)(20)

SW and SL are promoting incalculable harm. Anyone ready for a lawsuit for these two charlatans?

ref: Psychoanalytic Theory," Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches (Washington, D.C.: Hemisphere Publishing Corporation, a subsidiary of Harper and Row Publishers, Inc., 1987).


Dr. Robert Kronemeyer (studied at Amherst College; Ph.D. in Psychology from Columbia University; served as Adjunct Professor at New York University; developed Syntonic Therapy) writes:

With rare exceptions, homosexuality is neither inherited nor the result of some glandular disturbance or the scrambling of genes or chromosomes. Homosexuals are made, not born "that way." From my 25 years' experience as a clinical psychologist, I firmly believe that homosexuality is a learned response to early painful experiences and that it can be unlearned. For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy, it is 'curable.'(21)

ref: Overcoming Homosexuality (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, Inc. 1980, pg. 7).

5.Studies Show That Homosexuality Can Be Cured By Psychoanalysis(22).

ref:See Appendix F for list of quotes from the following publications: Ruth Tiffany Barnhouse, Homosexuality: A Symbolic Confusion (New York: The Seabury Press, 1977, pg. 97); Dr. Irving Bieber, Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study (New York: Basic Books, 1962, pg. 301); Charles W. Socarides, M.D. Homosexuality (New York: Jason Aronson, 1978, pg. 405-406.); Morey, Tom, Committee to Study Homosexuality of the United Methodist Church, General Conference of Ministries, Chicago Meeting on the Sciences, August 1990, p.19.; Robert Kronemeyer, Overcoming Homosexuality (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, Inc., 1980, pg. 135); Dr. Toby Bieber, "Group Therapy with Homosexuals," Comprehensive Group Psychotherapy edited by Harold I. Kaplan and Benjamin J. Saddock (Baltimore: The Williams and Wilkins Company, 1971,); E. Mansell Pattison and Myrna Loy Pattison, " 'Ex-Gays': Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals," American Journal of Psychiatry (December 1980); Gerald van den Aardweg, Homosexuality and Hope: A Psychologist Talks About Treatment and Change (Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Books, 1986.); Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life (New York: Collier Books, 1962

Houston MacIntosh, M.D., reporting a recent survey of 285 psychoanalysts who had analyzed 1215 patients found that:

*23% of their patients changed to heterosexuality;

*84% received significant therapeutic benefit.

This cure rate is comparable to the 27% cure rate reported by Bieber in 1962(23).

ref:Houston MacIntosh, M.D., wrote in "Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients," Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association (Vol. 42, No. 4, pgs. 1183- 1207).


I like this one:

D. Rather than legalize homosexual marriage or domestic partnership, or otherwise adopt a broad extension of derivative rights to homosexual couples, the State should identify specific, particular rights which might be extended to homosexual couples without undermining the institution of heterosexual marriage or imposing unreasonable costs upon the State. To make that determination, further study is necessary because this Commission failed to undertake that kind of examination. It may be that defining "family" to include "all persons who share a household" in some statutes would provide fair and appropriate protection without undermining the basic unit of society or imposing inordinate risks on children and marriage.

At least a few people in government have some common sense.

A review of the literature from the past reveals an interesting tidbit from behavioral psychologist Joseph Wolpe. Wolpe once reported an unexpected cure in a case of homosexuality. No--not with electric prods or lobotomy. In fact, his original therapeutic goal was to reinforce and affirm the 32-year-old patient's homosexual orientation and desensitize his Catholic guilt. This strategy, Wolpe later explained, was due to his belief at the time that homosexuality was biologically determined.

To the surprise of both the patient and Wolpe, the man gave up his homosexual lifestyle and relationship and began to date women. Wolpe explained this spontaneous reversal as a consequence of the patient's feeling more socially assertive, independent and accepted by men for the first time in his life. Four years later, a follow-up showed that the patient had gotten married, was reporting a very satisfactory sex life, and his wife was expecting a baby (24).

ref: Dr. Joseph Wolpe, The Practice of Behavior Therapy (Pergamon Press, 1969, pg 255-262). NARTH Bulletin (September 1994).

another version of same story from

The Removal of Homosexuality from the
Psychiatric Manual
-by Joseph Nicolosi
National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality

The Failure of the Mental Health Profession

Today, influenced by the popular assumption that homosexuality is in no way amenable to change, psychotherapists proceed to bring about "cure" by encouraging the client to accept his homosexuality. The most effective treatment is considered to be desensitization to feelings of guilt. This is done not because therapists necessarily advocate the gay lifestyle, but because they see no successful treatment.

Renowned behavioral psychologist Joseph Wolpe was faced with a Catholic client who felt guilty about his homosexuality. Wolpe had to decide which behavior to extinguish--the homosexuality or the religious guilt. Rather than the homosexuality, he chose to extinguish the guilt. This case is an example of the power of the therapist and a decision made all too often by the psychological profession.*
___________________
*Two interesting notes on this case: First, Wolpe said he made his decision based upon a belief that homosexuality was biologically determined. Second, the client later discovered heterosexual attraction on his own and was married, and Wolpe determined him to be cured of homosexuality.

OOPs sounds like a therapist really screwed up. Garbage in garbage out. Yike, I smell lawsuits coming against pro-gay therapists for misinforming their clients. This should prove to be quite interesting as time goes on. :eek:
 
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SL said homsexuality is defined as:

sexually attracted to members of your own sex.

Might I quote from the National Law Journal:

Martine Rothblatt, a lawyer who views the world without borders. She is legally married to her lesbian lover (the only ones in the U.S. because she used to be a man when she married her wife, and then after years of marriage the two decided it would be fun for them to spend the rest of their lives as lesbians. Martine received a sex change operation.) The story is a cover story to the National Law Journal, June 12, 1995.
So tell me Snakelord, is Martine Rothblatt a homosexual being a lesbian with a "Y" chromosome. Is his/her wife a homosexual?

SL said:

I can live with that. Instead I ask you to show me 50%.. nah, fuck it, 30%.. 20%.. 10%? How about 5%? Please, provide exact figures.

OK the answer is somewhere between 23% to 27% for conversion to heterosexuality.

Houston MacIntosh, M.D., reporting a recent survey of 285 psychoanalysts who had analyzed 1215 patients found that:


“ *23% of their patients changed to heterosexuality;

*84% received significant therapeutic benefit.

This cure rate is comparable to the 27% cure rate reported by Bieber in 1962(23). ”


ref:Houston MacIntosh, M.D., wrote in "Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients," Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association (Vol. 42, No. 4, pgs. 1183- 1207).

I'd like to compare that to the detoxification results for Alchoholics Anonymous -- BTW alchoholism is genetically linked too.

There certainly are a lot of professionals out there that disagree with you and Skinwalker. I'm only getting started unmasking this deception from you two.

For example: you asked for a control experiment, which would only prove that the therapy made the change and rule out the people that changed on their own as in Dr. Wolpe's example patient. Dr. Spitzer's goal was to prove that change can be made regardless of the reason. Hence, a control experiment would dilute the result, and water down the conclusion: exactly what the political activists want.


Yarhouse notes that whatever methodological limitations might be
found in the Spitzer study--such as self-report--are similar to those
limitations found in lesbian, gay, and bisexual research as well.

Some of the LGB studies don't use control groups either, so you shoot down their pro-gay results with the same bullet. I can give examples if you want them.
 
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Cris,

I am concerned my scientific results on successful sexual re-orientation therapy will consume too much band width. Should I start a blog instead?
 
Hi Woody,

Just interested to hear your thoughts on ex-heterosexuals. You know: married 20 years, 3 kids, only to up and leave overnight with a truck driver called Brian. Would you consider this kind of re-orientation to be successful? Naturally, these individuals have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to realise their true identity - the internal pressures must be phenomenal.

What do you think?
 
Here's an interesting presentation on DSM, used to classify mental disorders. It is only the start for psychiatirc treatment, not the end all.

As you may recall in this thread, the DSM on homosexual behavior was declassified from a mental disorder in 1974:

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p030473.html

Though homosexual behavior has been removed from the directly classified list, it is still treated as "other disorders" by practioners in the the psychiatric community.

From the Zur Institutute:

One telling example is the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until 1974, when gay activists demonstrated in front of the American Psychiatric Association Convention. The APA's 1974 vote showed 5,854 members supporting and 3,810 opposing the disorder's removal from the manual. At that time, the American Psychiatric Association made headlines by announcing that it had decided homosexuality was no longer a mental illness. Voting on what constitutes mental illness is truly bizarre and, needless to say, is political and unscientific
3,810 practitioners opposed the removal in 1974, So tell me Snakelord and Skinwalker, were they incompetent to practice psychiatry?

On the surface, this appears to be intimidating coercion on the part of gay activists to infuse "political correctness" into the therapy process. As I said before -- politics before the patient , and therapy by coup d'etat. Why can't psychiatrists just do their job and be left alone by these nuts?
 
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redarmy11 said:
Hi Woody,

Just interested to hear your thoughts on ex-heterosexuals. You know: married 20 years, 3 kids, only to up and leave overnight with a truck driver called Brian. Would you consider this kind of re-orientation to be successful? Naturally, these individuals have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to realise their true identity - the internal pressures must be phenomenal.

What do you think?

I have a step-nephew that left his wife and did the same thing.

You know, you never hear of anyone going through re-orientation therapy to change from heterosexual to homosexual, do you?

Here's a testimonial for you:

While I was single, our singles pastor related an incidence that happened with two lesbians that lived nest door to him and his wife and children. As it were, one of the women divorced her husband and moved in with a lesbian next door. She brought a pre-adolescent son with her.

Her lesbian partner treated him brutally when his mother wasn't around. The pastor recalled several incidences where the poor boy ran outside the house screaming as she lashed him and beat him severely with anything she could find for a whip. I don't know if social services got involved in this or not.

In the pastor's own words he said it was Too Much Hurt.

His account is one of the reasons I disapprove of homosexual adoption.
 
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trivia from the Karten study:

With such data providing support for the efficacy of reparative therapy with some individuals, the question of the ethics of APA discouraging such therapy now becomes center stage. No longer can the opponents of reparative therapy state there is no scientific evidence of its effectiveness. More importantly, as reparative therapy is studied, perhaps it is time for APA to insist on data to support the efficacy of other therapies, including gay affirmative therapy.

The ethical route demands the following: clients should be informed of the possibility that they may be disappointed if therapy (for any reason) does not succeed, so they can make a rational decision whether or not enter therapy. Offering such a choice should be fundamental to any therapeutic endeavor, and is central to client autonomy and client self-determination. In fact, it is clearly unethical for any professional, informed by the literature and guided by evidence-based interventions, to deny the choice of therapy to those who are unhappy with their same-sex attractions and seek therapy to diminish those attractions.

Though such research into sexual reorientation may be viewed as politically incorrect, no longer can it be ignored. Sociopolitical concerns must not interfere with the scientist's freedom to research any reasonable hypothesis, or to explore the efficacy of any reasonable treatment.

Thus Karten's study, along with others, adds to the body of clinical and research data that conclude that homosexuality is more fluid than fixed. Indeed, the quality of such research, mentored by seasoned professionals, provides scientific evidence to refute the repeated claims of The American Psychological Association (APA) that there is "no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation."

Some of the details from NARTH editorial

Among Karten's most robust findings: treatment success is best predicted by a reduction in conflict regarding the expression of non-sexual affection toward other men.

Men who became more comfortable in expressing their thoughts and feelings to other men and those who became comfortable with non-sexualized touch demonstrated a significant advantage in treatment.
 
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Researcher Under Investigation for gay gene research misconduct:

CFACR Investigatory Report

Case in point, Leslie Stahl. In the March 12, 2006 episode of 60 Minutes she presented a piece about science and sexual orientation . However, what Stahl conveniently left out of her piece and failed to tell the viewing public, is that her “expert,” J. Michael Bailey, has been exposed and charged for “research misconduct” concerning the research he is best known for on transexuality. Turns out Mr. Bailey received many complaints from the transsexual women he interviewed for his book The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender Bending and Transsexualism, saying that they didn't know he was using them as research subjects and that he distorted versions of their case histories that appeared in his book.

As a result of this, Bailey was under investigation for researcher misconduct in 2004, and ultimately resigned from his Chairmanship of the Department of Psychology [at Northwestern], after he was given sanctions and the investigation was final. To this day, controversy surrounds Bailey and his associates that Stahl interviewed for her piece

A coffin nail for Bailey:

“Psychologists used to believe homosexuality was caused by nurture — namely overbearing mothers and distant fathers — but that theory has been disproved. Today, scientists are looking at genes, environment, brain structure and hormones. There is one area of consensus: that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; it's physiological,” said Bailey.

from the review:

The piece ends by Stahl showing another set of twins, this time as adults, where one is gay and one is straight. Not surprisingly, there is no mention of their father or how he may have influenced them. Which suggests that maybe a lack of a father, or powerful overbearing or weak mother did have some impact on their son's sexual orientation and that maybe it isn't all about genetics as they would like you to think. After all, if being gay is simply genetic and nurture plays no part, then once a cure is found no one will have an excuse for being gay. On the other hand, if the cause of homosexuality can be traced to nurture, environment and choice than we have an issue of morality which those who are immoral don't want to face.

[If homosexuality was genetic, than both twins in an identical pair would be homosexual or both would be heterosexual. This is not the case in Bailey’s examples, so it is safe to assume that homosexuality is not genetic to any significant degree. We also know that behaviors are not inherited (although some people may have genetic tendencies that make them behave in certain ways) they are chosen at some level. This is not to say that the choice is conscious or deliberate.]
 
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Good Reasons to Change Gay Behavior:

Health Statistics

When you look at the statistics, there should be no question that acting out on same-sex attractions is dangerous to your health. Here are just a few of the statistics you can share with friends:

• In 2000, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that 49% of all AIDS cases were among homosexual men age 13-24.

• At least 50% of all new HIV infections in the US are among people under 25 years old.

• Homosexual men are 9 times more likely to contract the HIV infection than heterosexual men.

• Homosexual men and women are at a significantly higher risk of contracting incurable sexually transmitted diseases, including herpes and HPV.

• Homosexual women are at increased risks for certain cancers.

• Acting out on same-sex attractions also has devastating psychological effects, including increased drug and alcohol abuse.
 
Woody said:
Homosexual is behavior, not the person that exhibits that behaviour.

Is heterosexuality not a behavior?

It's a complex bundle of unmet emotional needs and natural sexual urges that a person is only trying to meet the best way they know how.

:p There is an enormous amount of people on this planet who have unmet emotional needs and natural sexual urges that often go unfulfilled. Guess how many of them are so-called heterosexuals?

It is an illusion based on beauty, and the fantasies of fulfillment surrounding beauty.

My, you are gargling!
Playboy, Penthouse, High Society, Club, Hustler, Barely Legal, Nugget, Swank, etcetera, etcetera...

All these are filled to the brim with heterosexual illusions based on beauty, which fuel fantasies based on that "beauty" ( :p ) that are likely to go unfulfilled because they are unrealistic and untenable.

You didn't mention anything about the false notions of femininity and unnatural standards of beauty that society is bombarded with daily. Did you forget about the heterosexuals? Conveniently?

The sexual satisfaction from a homosexual relationship sets the neurological pattern for future sexual behavior and fulfillment.
Each experience re-inforces the pattern.

You seem certain that you are only describing homosexuals, lost and confused and so far from what is natural and God-intended...

But eventually they find their emotional needs are unfilled in the long-run.

You're describing an enormous number of hetersexuals. I know some young men who would rather have a perfect-looking sex machine for a woman, who preferably has a small brain, and little to say. You know, someone you don't really have to invest alot of time or emotion in, just so long as they're available for that particular act.


Woody: you're amusing, fairly one-sided, and kind of annoying.
 
Woody said:
As you may recall in this thread, the DSM on homosexual behavior was declassified from a mental disorder in 1974:

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p030473.html

Though homosexual behavior has been removed from the directly classified list, it is still treated as "other disorders" by practioners in the the psychiatric community.

A sizable minority of people enjoy eating sushi. However, sushi has a much higher risk of causing serious bouts of food poisoning than most other foods.

Does having a taste for raw fish that could harm or possibly even KILL you count as a mental illness then?
 
Giambattista said:
A sizable minority of people enjoy eating sushi. However, sushi has a much higher risk of causing serious bouts of food poisoning than most other foods.

Does having a taste for raw fish that could harm or possibly even KILL you count as a mental illness then?

Only if the fluke worms get into your brain. I read a story about a guy that frequented the sushi bar, and ended up with a terrible case of flatworms. I suppose a few flatworms swimming around in your brain would be hard to go un-noticed. :eek:
 
Giambattista said:
Is heterosexuality not a behavior?



:p There is an enormous amount of people on this planet who have unmet emotional needs and natural sexual urges that often go unfulfilled. Guess how many of them are so-called heterosexuals?



My, you are gargling!
Playboy, Penthouse, High Society, Club, Hustler, Barely Legal, Nugget, Swank, etcetera, etcetera...

All these are filled to the brim with heterosexual illusions based on beauty, which fuel fantasies based on that "beauty" ( :p ) that are likely to go unfulfilled because they are unrealistic and untenable.

You didn't mention anything about the false notions of femininity and unnatural standards of beauty that society is bombarded with daily. Did you forget about the heterosexuals? Conveniently?



You seem certain that you are only describing homosexuals, lost and confused and so far from what is natural and God-intended...



You're describing an enormous number of hetersexuals. I know some young men who would rather have a perfect-looking sex machine for a woman, who preferably has a small brain, and little to say. You know, someone you don't really have to invest alot of time or emotion in, just so long as they're available for that particular act.


Woody: you're amusing, fairly one-sided, and kind of annoying.

Yep, heterosexual pornography fits it to a T. You are 100% correct -- that kind of "heterosexual" behavior is also bad behavior.
 
Woody said:
Yep, heterosexual pornography fits it to a T. You are 100% correct -- that kind of "heterosexual" behavior is also bad behavior.

Perhaps you fail to see the bigger picture? I wasn't just talking about pornography.

What is the underlying basis for the images found in pornography?

The ideal of feminine perfection, of course.

You very strongly insinuated that homosexuality was based on a physical, sexual attraction. Physical beauty. That men or women are unable to have their emotional needs met by their own gender, only the opposite gender.

Most attractions between people are ignited by a physical attraction first, and perhaps possibly a superficial intellectual attraction. Of course it can be the other way around, but most often a person's looks and features are the first to be noticed and the first to catch someone's eye.

You failed to comment on the fact that many heterosexuals have relationships that come and go all the time. Some of them go through partners left and right.
This problem of "unmet needs" you describe is common to many people, hetero or homo or what have you. This isn't simply a "gay" problem.
 
I really don't understand why gays are so opposed to ex-gays. Doesn't a person have a right to be ex-gay if they want to?

Most certainly. While I wont speak for others here - I can only say I don't really care who's gay, who isn't and who supposedly once was. You've dragged me down to some shit that means nothing to me, so to clear this up we'll have to take a quick journey back to the start..

People that want to change can be helped by the God of Christianity.

Proof Positive from NARTH

It prooves God is a real, life-changing force.

It was these statements I had issue with, as seen when I said: "you claim it proof positive of the existence of your specific space being. It's ludicrous."

Hopefully now you'll understand where my issue lies. I don't care who's gay and who isn't. I don't care about your ten thousand step uncles, brothers, wives, preachers lovers and best friends that got blow jobs off some other guy or ran off with a truck driver named Bob. I have come to accept that you live in the Twilight Zone. My issue is with the idiocy of your statements - trying to use prophet yahweh and some "dont be gay" group as even evidence, let alone "proof", of the existence of a specific sky being.

Let's get it straight: I have no qualms with gay people or supposedly ex-gay people. I am a tolerant person. Now, as we know you do have a problem with gays, women, and many many more - because you're an intolerant person. However, you can be that way - again, I don't care. But if you're going to make stupid statements, (as I have highlighted), you will be called on them.

One more thing..

Are there any secular success stories out there for changing sexual orientation?

Man.. science has changed women into men, men into women, and even into a combination of both. Top that.
 
SL said:

Man.. science has changed women into men, men into women, and even into a combination of both. Top that.

I see what it's changed you into -- an atheist. That tops all of them.
 
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