Evolution v Intelligent Design; Should we really teach evolution?

Norsefire, I believe Kadark says this quite well. I'm going to quote him again. Basically, just because the evidence isn't definitive(there's a small chance it's wrong) doesn't mean there's reason to dismiss it as false, or foolish to believe.

Where is the evidence that your great-grandfather existed? A picture? Inconclusive. What else? A pocket watch? Could have been anybody's pocket watch. Do you see how silly your argument is? If Muhammad did not exist, then people like Genghis Khan, Justinian, Constantine, Richard, Saladin, etc., did not exist either.


Kadark

In his quote, he is talking about doubting the existence of Mohammad. While I am not saying I believe Mohammad exists, I believe this quote relates quite well.
 
Now, back to evolution and intelligent design. Both have no concrete evidence, but both are logical enough ideas. I, being an agnostic, consider both open to serious possibility at the moment, until further conclusive proof is found.
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However, also, evolution isn't fact. It's theory. It hasn't been observed and doesn't have serious evidence.
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Do we really want to teach evolution as undeniable fact, when it remains a theory (and, although it has a good number of circumstancial evidence, it lacks any serious objective conclusive evidence)?

Very incorrect. Evolution has centuries of documented supportive evidence... so much so that it's simply a fact that it exists. ID has zero supportive evidence.


In my opinion, both intelligent design and evolution should be taught, but not as facts, but as ideas.

Evolution is a fact and it's also supported by evidence. An educational system should not waste time on anthropomophic ideas.
 
Again, if such is the case, I highly doubt it'd have been so obvious. "Wild speculation"? It's a perfectly rational conclusion. How else do you think every civilization in the world came up with it, even those that didn't communicate?
Try asking an anthropologist !

No, it's far stronger. And again, what is it with you atheists that makes you compare ID to ridiculous things? Is the string theory as pointless as balls of cheese?

In what sense is it "stronger". Strength sugests evidence; you have offered none. You are simply speculating. You can now choose between one of the many individual gods, a committee of gods, aliens and so on,. You obviously enjoy dscience fiction.



Finally someone who can the difference between religion and concept. ATHEISTS TAKE NOTE! They change. But the change from the supposed beginning of man to what we are today is a massive one.

What the hell are you talking about ? Why do you think what you call massive change cannot be accounted for by evolution ? As I previously suggested, you have no idea what you are talking about but that does not seem to bother you, at least to the extent where you are prepared to learn something about evolution.

Massive change can be accomplished in small incremental steps over time.


I think we should teach it as an idea, not as a fact or even a theory. Just as an idea. It is a rational enough idea.

An idea cannot be " rational enough"; it is either rational or it is not. ID is not rational in the light of the mountains of evidence that sipports evolution. It is intuitively attractive to the ignorant.

Perhaps we should also teach alien abduction as an idea. The sky is the limit when it comes to "ideas"


I never once agreed with creationism. I find creationism to be an interesting myth. I don't believe it, though.

So what point are you hoping to make ? You do not understand evolution as your posts clearly show. You think Creationism is an interesting myth. Well, you will find tht creation myths abound. You can learn about them if you study mythology.

Speculation is important, because everything starts out with ideas. It isn't a ridiculous supposition that we were created, now the only problem is finding evidence.

Speculation has its place in the scheme of things but, in the present instance, you are speculating in vain. We have the evidence to support evolution, so speculating about rival ideas is a waste of time.

What position of ignorance am I at? I do believe in evolution.

Your position of ignorance has nothing to do with your beliefs. Youare ignorant of evolutionary as your posts show. Peoiple have tried to tell you this but you don't want to know. Don't expect to be taken seriously !


Again, Creationism is not ID; ID simply suggests the concept that we were created. Nothing unreasonable about that. Creationism specifically states the exact everything about ID, which is why it's unreasonable. ID isn't, it's broader and understandable.

ID and Creationism are one and the same thing. ID is now used because it has a more respectable ring to it,. I have even heard speakers talk of Creation Science. The bottom line is that, whatever the name, it represents an attempt to clothe Biblical myth in respectable garb.



I think it should be taught as an idea, and evolution shouldn't be taught as fact. As a theory, yes, and a theory with alot of evidence, sure. But not fact. Teach both if you want to give people every side of the argument and let them choose for themselves.


You are just repeating yourself and, again, showing your ignorance. Evolution is a theory and is taught as such. When we talk of evolution, we should more properly talk of evolutionary theory in the present context.Evolution is a process and the associated theory explains how that process works. The alternatives are not theories because they lack supporting evidence. They could be taught under religious studiesor mythology.

I take it from everything you say that you have little or no background in science. Go educate yourself ! If you can't be bothered, then stop posting nonsense which is all you are capable of doing at present.
 
Again, if such is the case, I highly doubt it'd have been so obvious. "Wild speculation"? It's a perfectly rational conclusion. How else do you think every civilization in the world came up with it, even those that didn't communicate?
Try asking an anthropologist !

No, it's far stronger. And again, what is it with you atheists that makes you compare ID to ridiculous things? Is the string theory as pointless as balls of cheese?

In what sense is it "stronger". Strength sugests evidence; you have offered none. You are simply speculating. You can now choose between one of the many individual gods, a committee of gods, aliens and so on,. You obviously enjoy dscience fiction.



Finally someone who can the difference between religion and concept. ATHEISTS TAKE NOTE! They change. But the change from the supposed beginning of man to what we are today is a massive one.

What the hell are you talking about ? Why do you think what you call massive change cannot be accounted for by evolution ? As I previously suggested, you have no idea what you are talking about but that does not seem to bother you, at least to the extent where you are prepared to learn something about evolution.

Massive change can be accomplished in small incremental steps over time.


I think we should teach it as an idea, not as a fact or even a theory. Just as an idea. It is a rational enough idea.

An idea cannot be " rational enough"; it is either rational or it is not. ID is not rational in the light of the mountains of evidence that sipports evolution. It is intuitively attractive to the ignorant.

Perhaps we should also teach alien abduction as an idea. The sky is the limit when it comes to "ideas"


I never once agreed with creationism. I find creationism to be an interesting myth. I don't believe it, though.

So what point are you hoping to make ? You do not understand evolution as your posts clearly show. You think Creationism is an interesting myth. Well, you will find tht creation myths abound. You can learn about them if you study mythology.

Speculation is important, because everything starts out with ideas. It isn't a ridiculous supposition that we were created, now the only problem is finding evidence.

Speculation has its place in the scheme of things but, in the present instance, you are speculating in vain. We have the evidence to support evolution, so speculating about rival ideas is a waste of time.

What position of ignorance am I at? I do believe in evolution.

Your position of ignorance has nothing to do with your beliefs. Youare ignorant of evolutionary as your posts show. Peoiple have tried to tell you this but you don't want to know. Don't expect to be taken seriously !


Again, Creationism is not ID; ID simply suggests the concept that we were created. Nothing unreasonable about that. Creationism specifically states the exact everything about ID, which is why it's unreasonable. ID isn't, it's broader and understandable.

ID and Creationism are one and the same thing. ID is now used because it has a more respectable ring to it,. I have even heard speakers talk of Creation Science. The bottom line is that, whatever the name, it represents an attempt to clothe Biblical myth in respectable garb.



I think it should be taught as an idea, and evolution shouldn't be taught as fact. As a theory, yes, and a theory with alot of evidence, sure. But not fact. Teach both if you want to give people every side of the argument and let them choose for themselves.


You are just repeating yourself and, again, showing your ignorance. Evolution is a theory and is taught as such. When we talk of evolution, we should more properly talk of evolutionary theory in the present context.Evolution is a process and the associated theory explains how that process works. The alternatives are not theories because they lack supporting evidence. They could be taught under religious studiesor mythology.

I take it from everything you say that you have little or no background in science. Go educate yourself ! If you can't be bothered, then stop posting nonsense which is all you are capable of doing at present.
 
Again, if such is the case, I highly doubt it'd have been so obvious. "Wild speculation"? It's a perfectly rational conclusion. How else do you think every civilization in the world came up with it, even those that didn't communicate?
Try asking an anthropologist !

No, it's far stronger. And again, what is it with you atheists that makes you compare ID to ridiculous things? Is the string theory as pointless as balls of cheese?

In what sense is it "stronger". Strength sugests evidence; you have offered none. You are simply speculating. You can now choose between one of the many individual gods, a committee of gods, aliens and so on,. You obviously enjoy dscience fiction.



Finally someone who can the difference between religion and concept. ATHEISTS TAKE NOTE! They change. But the change from the supposed beginning of man to what we are today is a massive one.

What the hell are you talking about ? Why do you think what you call massive change cannot be accounted for by evolution ? As I previously suggested, you have no idea what you are talking about but that does not seem to bother you, at least to the extent where you are prepared to learn something about evolution.

Massive change can be accomplished in small incremental steps over time.


I think we should teach it as an idea, not as a fact or even a theory. Just as an idea. It is a rational enough idea.

An idea cannot be " rational enough"; it is either rational or it is not. ID is not rational in the light of the mountains of evidence that sipports evolution. It is intuitively attractive to the ignorant.

Perhaps we should also teach alien abduction as an idea. The sky is the limit when it comes to "ideas"


I never once agreed with creationism. I find creationism to be an interesting myth. I don't believe it, though.

So what point are you hoping to make ? You do not understand evolution as your posts clearly show. You think Creationism is an interesting myth. Well, you will find that creation myths abound. You can learn about them if you study mythology.

Speculation is important, because everything starts out with ideas. It isn't a ridiculous supposition that we were created, now the only problem is finding evidence.

Speculation has its place in the scheme of things but, in the present instance, you are speculating in vain. We have the evidence to support evolution, so speculating about rival ideas is a waste of time.

What position of ignorance am I at? I do believe in evolution.

Your position of ignorance has nothing to do with your beliefs. Youare ignorant of evolutionary theory, as your posts show. People have tried to tell you this but you don't want to know. Don't expect to be taken seriously !


Again, Creationism is not ID; ID simply suggests the concept that we were created. Nothing unreasonable about that. Creationism specifically states the exact everything about ID, which is why it's unreasonable. ID isn't, it's broader and understandable.

ID and Creationism are one and the same thing. ID is now used because it has a more respectable ring to it,. I have even heard speakers talk of Creation Science. The bottom line is that, whatever the name, it represents an attempt to clothe Biblical myth in respectable garb.



I think it should be taught as an idea, and evolution shouldn't be taught as fact. As a theory, yes, and a theory with alot of evidence, sure. But not fact. Teach both if you want to give people every side of the argument and let them choose for themselves.


You are just repeating yourself and, again, showing your ignorance. Evolution is a theory and is taught as such. When we talk of evolution, we should more properly talk of evolutionary theory in the present context. Evolution is a process and the associated theory explains how that process works. The alternatives are not theories because they lack supporting evidence. They could be taught under religious studies or mythology.

I take it from everything you say that you have little or no background in science. Go educate yourself ! If you can't be bothered, then stop posting nonsense which is all you are capable of doing at present.
 
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Norsefire doesn't believe ID, he thinks the idea is rational enough to be taught in schools along with evolution.
 
No. As in all things scientific, one goes with the preponderance of evidence, the sound argument, and the tested predictions.



As opposed to the lack of evidence, the nonsensical argument, and the failure to generate predictions let alone test them.
kind of begs the q why biology is nowhere near as predictable as physics, eh?
;)
 
Norsefire doesn't believe ID, he thinks the idea is rational enough to be taught in schools along with evolution.

As I have already pointed out "rational enough" is meaningless. There are no degrees of rationality.

As I have also said, ID can be taught as part of a course on mythology ( creation myths ). Alternatively it can come under religious studies. It has no place in science.
 
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They change. But the change from the supposed beginning of man to what we are today is a massive one.

In the last 40 years alone the average womans shoe has gone up 4 sizes, people are getting a lot taller, surviving a lot longer, in 200 years there wont be any natural blondes left.

Life is 'changing' all the time - of course we never notice it, but given the time frame it seems entirely meaningless to claim "a massive one".

I think we should teach it as an idea, not as a fact or even a theory. Just as an idea. It is a rational enough idea.

Most certainly - but not in science class as we've already established that it isn't science. You will see no objection from me whatsoever to teaching it as "an idea" in RE class or in church.

Actually having mentioned that, do you request the same thing of churches? Do you tell them they should teach evolution alongside their large sermons on ID? Come now, fairs fair right?
 
what if we gained the power to create a universe. theoretically it is possible.

in that universe we create life. we plant the seed for evolution of life. wouldn't it be funny to watch all those little creations sit around and argue ID vs evolution. would they be the same, evolution and id or would they be different? would the creations be right or wrong?
 
what if we gained the power to create a universe. theoretically it is possible.

in that universe we create life. we plant the seed for evolution of life. wouldn't it be funny to watch all those little creations sit around and argue ID vs evolution. would they be the same, evolution and id or would they be different? would the creations be right or wrong?

And what if ...................the possibilities are endless. Your speculation is pointless.
 
I see ID as an evolutionary step for God. In order for God to survive the relentless assault on his creativeness, it is necessary for religion to adapt, that is to turn God into some wonderfully sage divine engineer. God needed a new image, not the spur of the moment, fire and brimstone, wave of the hand type but more calculating and deliberate. Ironically, ID demonstrates evolution.
 
what if we gained the power to create a universe. theoretically it is possible.

in that universe we create life. we plant the seed for evolution of life. wouldn't it be funny to watch all those little creations sit around and argue ID vs evolution. would they be the same, evolution and id or would they be different? would the creations be right or wrong?

Yes Bucky, turtles upon turtles upon turtles...
 
I see ID as an evolutionary step for God. In order for God to survive the relentless assault on his creativeness, it is necessary for religion to adapt, that is to turn God into some wonderfully sage divine engineer. God needed a new image, not the spur of the moment, fire and brimstone, wave of the hand type but more calculating and deliberate. Ironically, ID demonstrates evolution.

ID most certainly dies not demonstrate evolution.
 
ID most certainly dies not demonstrate evolution.

Creationism was getting creamed, near death. It survives because it adapted. It will still get blistered and then it will change again. It will keep on changing in order to survive. I was merely referring to adaptation, an analogy. Creationism, the thing that won't die needs something akin to an asteroid impact.
 
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