Evolution v Intelligent Design; Should we really teach evolution?

I wouldn't say that; I think people think that because our neurons can communicate, maybe our minds can too
Thousands of years of claims and no proof, or even demonstrations...

They are examining the unknown; just like UFOlogists.
With equal results: nothing.

Just check the website I mentioned earlier
I have: as previously stated every single claim given turns out to be completely false if you actually follow the links.
Some of the links directly contradict the statement in their first line...
The guy who set up that web site is liar and a charlatan.

Not to mention, since we are conscious we MUST have a soul.
Doesn't follow.

Non living material isn't going to suddenly create consciousness. It can create connections, but SOMETHING has to be perceiving these connections, and that something would be our souls
No: it could be our consciousness.

Delusions? Why are you saying the afterlife is impossible?
I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm saying that so far delusion is a better explanation than souls and afterlives.
And has more evidence to support it.
 
Thousands of years of claims and no proof, or even demonstrations...
Ok....
With equal results: nothing.
Actually, you're wrong. Scientists have researched the mind and telepathy, and have effectively disproven it. UFOlogists research UFO's and can find certain evidence, etc
I have: as previously stated every single claim given turns out to be completely false if you actually follow the links.
Some of the links directly contradict the statement in their first line...
The guy who set up that web site is liar and a charlatan.
OK, find any NDE website
No: it could be our consciousness.
As I said, non living material isn't going to suddenly, in seperate bits, form a consciousness. Something needs to PERCEIVE the consciousness.
I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm saying that so far delusion is a better explanation than souls and afterlives.
And has more evidence to support it.

More evidence? :roflmao:

It has NO evidence whatsoever. And how do you determine what a "better" explanation is?

Oh please.....once you are on your deathbed, I guarantee you you'll believe there is an afterlife.
 
Actually, you're wrong. Scientists have researched the mind and telepathy, and have effectively disproven it.
That's what I meant by nothing.

UFOlogists research UFO's and can find certain evidence, etc
UFOlogists find what they call evidence, which doesn't stand up when examined by science.

OK, find any NDE website
Tch, too much grabage to trawl through considering the first 30-odd turned out to factually incorrect.

As I said, non living material isn't going to suddenly, in seperate bits, form a consciousness. Something needs to PERCEIVE the consciousness.
So conclude consciousness is an emergent property of living material at certain level of complexity...

More evidence?
It has NO evidence whatsoever. And how do you determine what a "better" explanation is?
Like the fact that DMT is known to be created in the brain under extreme stress for one.
Like the fact that other psychedelics can give more or less the same overall effects...
It accords with the known data without postulating extra, unproven, phenomena like souls...

Oh please.....once you are on your deathbed, I guarantee you you'll believe there is an afterlife.
I most sincerely hope not.
I hope I stay true to myself and the evidence.
 
Church? Why teach a non religous concept in a religious place?

ID is a religious concept. That when you say the word god you mean.. something other than god is neither here nor there to that fact. Once again though, you could set up an "its possible" class and fill students heads with all kinds of possibilities. It is still not science.

Science classes are best suited for this sort of thing; what other class? History? Language?

Your concept isn't history so no, don't teach it in history class. Your concept isn't language so no, don't teach it in language class. Your concept isn't science... work the rest out for yourself.

We could teach it alongside other no-evidence ideas such as dark matter or string theory.

Even if I give you this one, the answer would still be no given that there's nothing to teach - you've already made it abundantly clear that there are no details and can't be any details. There's simply nothing to talk about.

So you find the idea that life on earth was influenced by a higher intelligence, such as an alien civ, completely illogical and ridiculous? I don't.

Now it's "life on earth"? A minute ago it was the entire universe. Please, get your thoughts in order first.

To answer the question, I find it completely baseless. There is nothing to suggest that the universe was created by some form of alien, god, marshmallow man or anything else you would care to call "intelligent". Do note that I don't find the notion itself ridiculous, just worthless. This applies to many things including the Loch Ness monster. I don't find the concept ridiculous - some big creature that swims in water, it happens. Without so much as a shred of evidence and without so much as any basic details there is simply nothing to discuss on the matter.
 
Norsfire said:
Something needs to PERCEIVE the consciousness.
Does it? You mean we need to be aware, that we are conscious? That's what awareness or consciousness is, though; by definition awareness is aware of itself.
All sentient animals must be aware of when they're awake - how else would they function?
 
Non-living material didn't suddenly develop consciousness. It was a gradual process of development, re: evolution.

If something is truly unknowable, then stop claiming to know it (that the afterlife and the soul exist).
 
Actually, yes. Consideration being the key word. Mass claims of telepathy are always moot, or cannot be demonstrated. The afterlife, on the other hand, has been experienced by people of all cutlures, backgrounds, ages, races, health, etc.
No, you misunderstand. people who have NDE's can actively roam about and RECALL (therefore disproving illusions) what they see.
Most people who die don't come back...

What does neuroscience have to do with spirit? Psychologists and neuroscientists are studying the existence of the soul.

Neuroscientists are not studying the soul. If you disagree, give me one reference. And even if they were there is no evidence that souls exist.

You keep digging yourself in deeper with every post you write. It has been made clear to you that positing god as a first cause is an unnecessary complication because it leads to an infinite regress.

Now you have landed yourself with the problem of explaining how spirit, which is immaterial, interacts with brains, which are obviously physical.

Earlier, you accused someoneof dismissing your arguments out of hand, That is your perception. The truth of the matter is that you have said nothing that has not been said already, time and again. You are under the illusion that what is new to you is also new to everyone else.

In a nutshell, you continue to make statements without offering a shred of evidence to support them. Worse still, what you are suggesting has been refuted many times in the past. If you knew anything of philosophy you would be aware of this.
 
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That's what I meant by nothing.
That isn't "nothing", it's been disproven. Therefore we KNOW it's impossible, at least, without the aid of technology.
UFOlogists find what they call evidence, which doesn't stand up when examined by science.
Evidence is evidence; they find videos, materials, etc

That's evidence, it's just not evidence to suggest alien craft. Just evidence that something is there. Not all UFOlogists believe that the UFO's are alien craft; some are skeptics.

Tch, too much grabage to trawl through considering the first 30-odd turned out to factually incorrect.
Not at all. Group NDE's and the ability to recall facts disproves your hallucination theory.
So conclude consciousness is an emergent property of living material at certain level of complexity...
That doesn't make sense; non conscious material, no matter the level of complexity, can't form a conscious mind. I believe that our soul acts through our brain, in order for us to be conscious in this reality. And this can be supported with certain quantum consciousness theories.

For instance, certain psychologists believe that consciousness is an emergent property of the universe, not of the brain. Therefore the mind can exist independent of the brain.
Like the fact that DMT is known to be created in the brain under extreme stress for one.
Like the fact that other psychedelics can give more or less the same overall effects...
It accords with the known data without postulating extra, unproven, phenomena like souls...
See above. Please note, when I say "soul" I am referring to our consciousness, our minds.

And again, NDE's can occur in all sorts of people, sometimes with multiple people at once.
I most sincerely hope not.
I hope I stay true to myself and the evidence.
Why not?

ID is a religious concept. That when you say the word god you mean.. something other than god is neither here nor there to that fact. Once again though, you could set up an "its possible" class and fill students heads with all kinds of possibilities. It is still not science.
ID isn't religious. Imagine that there is no such thing as religion. Nobody has a clue what "religion" means. And then say that a scientist suggests that our universe might have been created. In such a situation, in which you would not have any sort of bias, you likely would, while not necessarily believing the theory, give it more attention. Also, science class would be the best class to teach a scientific concept; after all, if we can teach nonsense like the big bang, surely we can teach ID?
Your concept isn't history so no, don't teach it in history class. Your concept isn't language so no, don't teach it in language class. Your concept isn't science... work the rest out for yourself.
It falls under science, because it attempts to explain the world.

Even if I give you this one, the answer would still be no given that there's nothing to teach - you've already made it abundantly clear that there are no details and can't be any details. There's simply nothing to talk about.
The concept is enough to talk about.

Now it's "life on earth"? A minute ago it was the entire universe. Please, get your thoughts in order first.
ID is both a theory for Human origins and Universal origins. It is a logical enough possibility for both situations, although for the former, we (as you said) have "proven" evolution. I still think there is a likeliness that our own evolution might have been guided.

To answer the question, I find it completely baseless. There is nothing to suggest that the universe was created by some form of alien, god, marshmallow man or anything else you would care to call "intelligent". Do note that I don't find the notion itself ridiculous, just worthless. This applies to many things including the Loch Ness monster. I don't find the concept ridiculous - some big creature that swims in water, it happens. Without so much as a shred of evidence and without so much as any basic details there is simply nothing to discuss on the matter.
The problem is we are dealing with the origins of the universe, so of course we can't have much in the way of evidence (whether ID or natural beginning). Also, you say "nothing to suggest"? We exist in this universe; that is what it is based on. The question is, why, and how do we exist in this universe?

And it is most certainly not baseless; I've already explained, it's quite natural to suppose that our universe was intentionally created, as much as it is to suppose that it was not. Frankly, we don't know, and both are real and equal possibilities.

Non-living material didn't suddenly develop consciousness. It was a gradual process of development, re: evolution.

If something is truly unknowable, then stop claiming to know it (that the afterlife and the soul exist).
I'm not, it's YOU that said "there is no afterlife". Have you died? No? OK.

I also simply don't think complexity leads to consciousness. Because no amount of complexity is going to create a "self".
I think the brain is complex, but something (the "soul) perceives and uses the complexity, in order to be sensually aware.

i.e, the soul perceives the brain.
 
That isn't "nothing", it's been disproven.
You can't have a negative: there is nothing to the claims.

Evidence is evidence; they find videos, materials, etc
Yup, but evidence of what? Not UFOs, as the scientific investigations show...

Not at all. Group NDE's and the ability to recall facts disproves your hallucination theory.
Nope, because mass hallucination is fairly well documented.

That doesn't make sense; non conscious material, no matter the level of complexity, can't form a conscious mind.
Until the existence of a soul is proven it would seem that that is exactly what happens.

I believe that our soul acts through our brain, in order for us to be conscious in this reality. And this can be supported with certain quantum consciousness theories
So show me how a non-material soul connects with a material body.

For instance, certain psychologists believe that consciousness is an emergent property of the universe, not of the brain. Therefore the mind can exist independent of the brain.
And certain psychologists are fervent UFO believers. Doesn't make them right. Mind separate from the brain? Riiiight.

And again, NDE's can occur in all sorts of people, sometimes with multiple people at once.
As can hallucination.

Because if I change my mind at the last minute out of fear rather than evidence I'd be betraying myself.

ID isn't religious. Imagine that there is no such thing as religion. Nobody has a clue what "religion" means.
Nice idea, except religion DOES exist and all of the proponents (and originators) of ID are religious fundamentalists.

And then say that a scientist suggests that our universe might have been created. In such a situation, in which you would not have any sort of bias, you likely would, while not necessarily believing the theory, give it more attention. Also, science class would be the best class to teach a scientific concept; after all, if we can teach nonsense like the big bang, surely we can teach ID?
It falls under science, because it attempts to explain the world.
No, ID is not science because it reaches the point where it says: this was done by something we cannot and will never understand and it is useless to speculate about it.
Therefore science becomes a waste of time since it was "done" rather than "happened according to knowable rules"...
ID negates science.

ID is both a theory for Human origins and Universal origins.
No, it's a non-thinking cop-out.

It is a logical enough possibility for both situations, although for the former, we (as you said) have "proven" evolution. I still think there is a likeliness that our own evolution might have been guided.
If our evolution WAS guided then any investigation into evolution is a waste of time.

And it is most certainly not baseless; I've already explained, it's quite natural to suppose that our universe was intentionally created, as much as it is to suppose that it was not. Frankly, we don't know, and both are real and equal possibilities.
Nope, you can't say they equally possible without knowing more about both possibilities.

I'm not, it's YOU that said "there is no afterlife". Have you died? No? OK.
Can't find where I said it but append the words "to the best of the veidence so far". Better?

I also simply don't think complexity leads to consciousness. Because no amount of complexity is going to create a "self".
That's your take.

I think the brain is complex, but something (the "soul) perceives and uses the complexity, in order to be sensually aware.
Soul not proven.

i.e, the soul perceives the brain.
So what does consciousness do?
 
Norsefire,

You have had a good run for your money and more attention than your posts deserve. Just look at where you have got to:

" I think the brain is complex". Now that's what I call a revelation ! Good of you to tell us.

"I think...the soul perceives the brain". Tell us what you know rather than what you think ! In any event what makes you thinkt here is a soul and, as I mentioned in a previous post, you will have to explain how it interacts with the brain.

You are posting pure nonsense. Time you put this topic to bed.
 
I think we waste a lot of time on this subject...as a society. In my humble opinion it is really quite simple, evolution is the active hand of God in our world...continuing and perfecting his/her work that began eons ago. For God's creations exist not in one, two or three dimensions of space but in multiple dimensions including time. God's creation is not static, but a work in progress.
 
I'm not, it's YOU that said "there is no afterlife". Have you died? No? OK.

I also simply don't think complexity leads to consciousness. Because no amount of complexity is going to create a "self".
I think the brain is complex, but something (the "soul) perceives and uses the complexity, in order to be sensually aware.

i.e, the soul perceives the brain.

No one dies. That is, no one experiences death. The body is the experiencing structure. When someone is brain dead, it doesn't even matter if we pull the plug on their body, that is a medical and scientific fact. Death is the end of any experiencing. Without the body there is no memory, no choice, no personality, nothing left. Prove to me otherwise if you can.
 
I think we waste a lot of time on this subject...as a society. In my humble opinion it is really quite simple, evolution is the active hand of God in our world...continuing and perfecting his/her work that began eons ago. For God's creations exist not in one, two or three dimensions of space but in multiple dimensions including time. God's creation is not static, but a work in progress.

I could buy that....the problem happens when people make up stuff in the name of God....
 
Thanks Oli. and you are correct KM. All too often people things up and attach them to God for a variety of reasons.
 
first it truely amazes me how this thread has evolved.....
haha

ive been trying to keep up lurking behind the scenes.

one, i believe in a god.
two, i do not have blind faith
three, because i believe in a god he must have made me to question the world/universe around me
four, that means just because i contemplate a god's existence doesn't mean that i contradicting myself

that said i have free realm to discuss things either way and im not hypocritical. this is what i believe.

ok....?

new subject
forget about having a soul because its how god made us. could the concept of the soul be derived from the fact that it is hard for us to fathom that we have not always existed and will not exist forever. how is it that i am me. it is a certain human trait because every society has come up with a reason as to where from or where to or both. i think to say that you are certain that death is the end and life was the begining is in denial of the biology that makes us human. sure you may be right but you would have to work hard to convince yourself of that "truth". other parts of our biology are far easier to control. we can stop ourselves from violence, infidelity and a whole assortment of biological traits that 20,000 years ago would have been the norm. but evidence suggests that 20,000 years ago, we believed in an afterlife. so i think that for some reason the brain works this way. it may be an ego trait. it may be a byproduct of intelligence. i curious if we were to create AI would it come to a similar conclusion, the concept of the soul?
 
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