Evidence - what will it take?
- Thread starter ggazoo
- Start date
That source document seems to be broken. Try this one instead:
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv.html
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv.html
There it was, hardly a record of Jesus' existence though.
Assuming the reliability of the documen and Tacitus himself, it's a record of the existence of Christians 30 years after the alleged crucifixion, and their treatment by Nero.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd lean toward the view that the Biblical Jesus is linked to an actual historical figure (or perhas more than one)... but that's about it. I generally put the Bible on a par with texts like Homer's Iliad and Odyssey: based on some factual history, liberally spiced with myth.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd lean toward the view that the Biblical Jesus is linked to an actual historical figure (or perhas more than one)... but that's about it. I generally put the Bible on a par with texts like Homer's Iliad and Odyssey: based on some factual history, liberally spiced with myth.
KennyJC said:
Ah, Kenny, I can always count on you.
Firstly, please don't tell me what I know. This is a forum of debate, is it not?
And secondly, I said that Christians believe that it not only takes your brain to discover God, but your heart also. That's the barrier that atheists can't overcome, and that's fine. It's their choice as much as the alternate is mine. That's why I posed the orginal question. I was curious.
Since Messiahs at that time were a fairly regular occurrence, I doubt there would be a great deal written about Jesus. A cursory mention by Tacitus, Josephus et al is about right.
Current messianic gurus do not get that much mainstream airtime either - unless it is of the negative variety eg Sai Baba.
I doubt that any 'evidence' would work, since any relationship requires desire and effort. Understandably, both are used here to counter-theorise.
Current messianic gurus do not get that much mainstream airtime either - unless it is of the negative variety eg Sai Baba.
I doubt that any 'evidence' would work, since any relationship requires desire and effort. Understandably, both are used here to counter-theorise.
ggazoo: those are few and far between, and they usually happen after something traumatic has occured, like a bad accident,or a blow to the head, or a near to death experience (I dont mean NDE's) something like nearly drowning, and surviving etc...
but no one and I mean no one, has turned to a belief in a fantasy, from using their sense, reason, and intellect.
it is just a total impossiblity.
but no one and I mean no one, has turned to a belief in a fantasy, from using their sense, reason, and intellect.
it is just a total impossiblity.
ggazoo said:
*************
M*W: That's called senile dementia.
It's kinda amazing to find that there is so much written about the biblical Jesus, and yet nothing found or discovered about him in terms of public or political documents that can confirm his existance. I've always wondered why that is? Maybe poor record keeping or documentation on the part of the public officials during that period or whatever? You tell us?
Prince_James said:
But of course if you find Satan you've found God
Do you mean the physical blood-pumping heart in the middle of your chest?ggazoo said:
Do you mean the seat of emotions; the seat of the indescribable joyousness/contentment/certainty that comes over you when you pray to Jesus and ask for salvation?
Or is it the same thing?
I haven't heard it suggested that way before... interesting.
Personally, I did overcome the barrier - from the other side.
I chose to overcome it, and I could choose to climb back if I wanted to... but really, I'd rather not. This is one fence over which the grass is definitely not greener.
I think that overcoming the barrier means recognizing the unreliability of decisions made "from the heart". We all know make such decisions, and we all realise their necessity... but experience shows that rational decisions (from the brain) are usually better than emotional decisions (from the heart).
And there's the answer - the evidence it would take is rational evidence, not emotional evidence.
I believe that you have strong emotional evidence to justify your choice... but I also believe that of any passionate person, whether they be anarchist, Satanist, devout Muslim, Hindu yogi, Mormon, 7th Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness, evangelical Christian, Roman Catholic, Wicca, Scientologist, Raelian, craterchains (Norval), or whatever. Do you see why I suspect that emotional evidence isn't trustworthy?
Prince_James said:
Oh if you only knew how right you are. That is exactly what is going to happen. Maybe not in our life times but then again maybe it will. Yes someone will present themselves before mankind and will give demonstrations to convince them, signs and wonders. And all those who still refuse to acknowledge him as God will be put to death with the real Christians.
I find it really ironic that some of the most rabid anti-christs here might one day be kneeling down in front of large public display screens worshipping the televised image of a man they will believe is The Messiah Jesus returned. They might even take part in the beheading of unbelievers. Imagine Cris one day on the controls of the mechanised guillotine and me in it being killed because i rejected the anti-christ.
Man… are you guys in for a shock or what...
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:Oh if you only knew how right you are. That is exactly what is going to happen. Maybe not in our life times but then again maybe it will. Yes someone will present themselves before mankind and will give demonstrations to convince them, signs and wonders. And all those who still refuse to acknowledge him as God will be put to death with the real Christians.
I find it really ironic that some of the most rabid anti-christs here might one day be kneeling down in front of large public display screens worshipping the televised image of a man they will believe is The Messiah Jesus returned. They might even take part in the beheading of unbelievers. Imagine Cris one day on the controls of the mechanised guillotine and me in it being killed because i rejected the anti-christ.
Man… are you guys in for a shock or what...
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Lunacy.
Technically, an alien could land on Earth and display superior intelligence and technology that would no doubt convince many that it would be God.
In your own haste Adstar, to see prophecies fulfilled and have this vision of God on Earth, you would no doubt be sucked in by this elaborate con.
Although you may be right, if there was irrefutable proof of an intelligent creator, then I might follow it. It's not like I am an atheist because I have a bias. Although I can't say I would take part in beheadings through my own free will. Why do you think this would be a good thing Adster?
Novacane said:
That’s easy:
The authorities of the day wanted to suppress any thoughts of Messiah's or alternative "kings" other than the Emperor of Rome. Don't you know what happened to Israel within a generation of the Messiah's death? The nation was destroyed and the people driven into internal exile. Every effort was undertaken to eliminate the Jewish problem, and a part of that problem was the new Christians who where seen by Rome to be nothing more that a Jewish sect.
The very message of Jesus was threatening to the powers that where during the time of his life and after both by Jewish religious authorities and then roman secular authorities. It is not surprising that they tried there best to remove all references to this "dangerous" figure a possible rallying point for rebellion. It is also not surprising that they did all they could to destroy the Christian community along with the Jewish community. To the Romans they where both seen as trouble.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days