ethics of belief

[Yazata]

As far as I can tell, for me, the biggest motivator for believing in karma and reincarnation is the concept of justice.

Because without karma and reincarnation, life seems too injust and it seems too impossible for me to bear injustice without invoking karma nad reincarnation.

Good point. That's one of the things that attracts me to the karma/reincarnation ideas as well.

It represents a very attractive natural-law ethical theory that doesn't require stuff like monarchical-style divine commandments to define right and wrong. Instead, right actions naturally lead to more refined consequences, while wrong actions lead to cruder consequences. It deals very effectively with the problem of evil, explaining suffering innocents and prospering sinners. Everyone ultimately gets precisely what they deserve, if not in this life, then in a succeeding one.

That's basically how it was conceived in the Buddhist suttas, I think. On its face, the idea of reincarnation doesn't appear to cohere very well with the no-self doctrine. But whenever somebody questions reincarnation, the suttas seem to typically portray the Buddha as equating its denial with the denial of ethics. So the response to what looks like an ontological question is often ethical in nature.

In the Buddhist scheme, the desire to evade death and to live forever certainly wouldn't be a very good argument for belief in reincarnation.

 

[Pineal]

But if most theories of reincarnation are true, wouldn't 'you' be reborn as a different person into different circumstances? How can you be sure that 'you' would still want to kill yourself in that new life?

Most reincarnation theories actually would not see killing yourself as effective. You would still have to deal with whatever illusions and issues led to this decision, the pain, for example, potentially self-hatred and/or hatred of others, etc.

Most reincarnation systems I am aware of do not see the next life as a kind of reshuffling the deck where you get a new personality, hew issues, etc.

Probably. It's kind of a tough question.

Does truth have some value in and of itself? If so, then believing the truth will presumably be better, more valuable, than believing a falsehood.

I think this is an interesting issue, especially in instances where quite possibly the person will not find counterexamples or contraditions.

And how would the other person even know that you believe in reincarnation?

Good question!

If you've already said that you do, then you would seem to be suggesting that you can freely state your beliefs but others who disagree with you can't state theirs because it might make you unhappy. There's an assertion of rhetorical power in there that I don't think that I agree with.

I don't see her saying they can't express their beliefs, but rather that she is objecting to them trying to talk her out of hers or criticizing her for having certain ones.

 

[chimpkin]

Pineal:
Most reincarnation theories actually would not see killing yourself as effective. You would still have to deal with whatever illusions and issues led to this decision, the pain, for example, potentially self-hatred and/or hatred of others, etc.

This. I think that should I kill myself, I will essentially get a brand new version of the same miserable crap, so I don't kill myself.

Oddly enough, I believe in karma, yes, but I also believe that there is just random awfulness as well.
Karma is the metaphysical version of "What goes up must come down." But disaster seems entirely too random for karma to be a pure explanation.

 

[Pineal]

This. I think that should I kill myself, I will essentially get a brand new version of the same miserable crap.
Oddly enough, I believe in karma, yes, but I also believe that there is just random awfulness as well.
Karma is the metaphysical version of "What goes up must come down." But disaster seems entirely too random for karma to be a pure explanation.

I don't believe in the Hindu version of Karma, which can also lead to victim blaming and hopelessness and stasis. So in a sense I agree with you. I do think there is a kind of Karma, but not one that says 'if something bad is happening to you, it matches something bad you did.'

 

[SciWriter]

This. I think that should I kill myself, I will essentially get a brand new version of the same miserable crap.
Oddly enough, I believe in karma, yes, but I also believe that there is just random awfulness as well.
Karma is the metaphysical version of "What goes up must come down." But disaster seems entirely too random for karma to be a pure explanation.

You might be better off, too, in your next life.

Violations of natural law will always be caught. You cannot get one over on Mother Nature. Many a child learns to respect gravity, after some suffering. In further life, doing what is not good for you will also get you a ticket, whether health-wise, or other-action-wise.

Nothing is guaranteed, though, as you say. An earthquake may arrive beneath you.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Yazata,

Yes, fear of death is probably the biggest motivator for beliefs in an afterlife.

Why?


jan.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yazata, Why?

I don't know what Yazata is going to say, but personally I am baffled by your question since it seems like a no-brainer.

When people fear something that they have no control over, a typical response is the self-delusion that the thing is not actually real. Fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism.

Every day millions of people cling to the fantasy that their dog didn't really dig up their neighbor's garden, that the county isn't really going to build a freeway half a block from their home, that their employer isn't really declaring bankruptcy, that their spouse didn't really desert them, that their child is not really in jail being charged with robbery, etc.

The fantasy that they're not really going to die is even more popular and widespread than the ones I listed. Hundreds of millions of people delude themselves with it.

 

[spidergoat]

This. I think that should I kill myself, I will essentially get a brand new version of the same miserable crap, so I don't kill myself.

Oddly enough, I believe in karma, yes, but I also believe that there is just random awfulness as well.
Karma is the metaphysical version of "What goes up must come down." But disaster seems entirely too random for karma to be a pure explanation.

It doesn't bother you that your beliefs are so obviously self-serving? I mean if you don't want to kill yourself, don't do it. Don't lie to yourself.

 

[Arioch]

@Fraggle --

When people fear something that they have no control over, a typical response is the self-delusion that the thing is not actually real. Fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism.

Exactly.

We see the same thing in the paranoid conspiracy theorist. There's something in their lives that they can't control(say they had a bad run in with the law or something) and to cope with the complete lack of control they invent vast, far reaching conspiracies centered around the government(or a shadow government in the case of the NWOers) attempting to impede their lives. In a twisted way it gives them a complete sense of control as it is their actions which are driving this conspiracy, it's the ultimate power trip(well, not quite) as they are not only driving this conspiracy but staying "one step ahead" as well.

A good parallel can be drawn between this and beliefs in the afterlife as both share a number of traits in common. In both cases they give people a sense of control(conspiracy theorists gain "control" over their adversary and afterlife believers gain "control" over what happens after death). In both cases there's absolutely no evidence to support the belief(although conspiracy theories are slightly better evidenced than any afterlife). In both cases the belief tends to be irrefutable in that no amount of evidence or debating to the contrary will convince the believer, the conspiracy theorist will just accuse you of being "in on it" and the believer in the afterlife will just state that they "know it for truth".

Of course, I don't expect the believers in here to accept this analysis.

 

[Pineal]

@Fraggle --



Exactly.

We see the same thing in the paranoid conspiracy theorist. There's something in their lives that they can't control(say they had a bad run in with the law or something) and to cope with the complete lack of control they invent vast, far reaching conspiracies centered around the government(or a shadow government in the case of the NWOers) attempting to impede their lives. In a twisted way it gives them a complete sense of control as it is their actions which are driving this conspiracy, it's the ultimate power trip(well, not quite) as they are not only driving this conspiracy but staying "one step ahead" as well.

A good parallel can be drawn between this and beliefs in the afterlife as both share a number of traits in common. In both cases they give people a sense of control(conspiracy theorists gain "control" over their adversary and afterlife believers gain "control" over what happens after death). In both cases there's absolutely no evidence to support the belief(although conspiracy theories are slightly better evidenced than any afterlife). In both cases the belief tends to be irrefutable in that no amount of evidence or debating to the contrary will convince the believer, the conspiracy theorist will just accuse you of being "in on it" and the believer in the afterlife will just state that they "know it for truth".

Of course, I don't expect the believers in here to accept this analysis.

Well, you'd have to have some empirical support, yes? Otherwise the support for your hypothesis would be as strong as what you think the support for 'conspiracy theories' is?

 

[Pineal]

I don't know what Yazata is going to say, but personally I am baffled by your question since it seems like a no-brainer.

When people fear something that they have no control over, a typical response is the self-delusion that the thing is not actually real. Fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism.

Every day millions of people cling to the fantasy that their dog didn't really dig up their neighbor's garden, that the county isn't really going to build a freeway half a block from their home, that their employer isn't really declaring bankruptcy, that their spouse didn't really desert them, that their child is not really in jail being charged with robbery, etc.

The fantasy that they're not really going to die is even more popular and widespread than the ones I listed. Hundreds of millions of people delude themselves with it.

So we don't need any empirical support for this hypothesis, we can accept it as obvious, a kind of self-evident truth?

 

[chimpkin]

It doesn't bother you that your beliefs are so obviously self-serving? I mean if you don't want to kill yourself, don't do it. Don't lie to yourself.

No, not really, although I admit freely it may all be a bunch of self-serving nonsense.
Does it bother you that I do?

As far wanting to kill myself, that's always conflicted.

I was only over the conflict once. My wife had the gun locked up, as I found after I ripped the box open with my bare hands, much to my dulled frustration...everything had sort of slowed down, I was in this sort of mental tunnel-vision, and I was ready to end it, tired of constantly being sick and exhausted...visions of myself getting in the tub and pulling the trigger on all of it were all I could see.

After I found the gun locked, I didn't have the energy to drill the lock off, or go drive to the tall-enough bridge and jump...that super-happy low-grade fever I was running... so I went to sleep. When I woke up, I was not home alone anymore, and so could not.

It often really, really hurts to be here, and there's really no point to it.
If I think death is cessation, it becomes so much more tempting when those moods are on me.

You're a lot more logical..and I think not as prone to severe depression as myself.
I'm only held together with duct-tape and coathanger wire on the inside.

 

[Arioch]

@Pineal --

Oh? Since when do people need evidence to draw a comparison around here?

On the plus side my comparison is more valid than most that we see around here, at least I was able to highlight some points of commonality unlike many posters I could name.

 

[Pineal]

@Pineal --

Oh? Since when do people need evidence to draw a comparison around here?

It seems like people get called out for not having evidence pretty regularly. This is what it is like. I also don't believe this idea that many atheists have - the one you more or less presented - is a response to the lack of evidence theists have for their beliefs. Like 'well, they have beliefs without evidence, so I will too.' Though that would be pretty funny if true.

Anyway, remember in elementary school how the teachers didn't really go for the 'But Jimmy was running in the hallway too' defense.

On the plus side my comparison is more valid than most that we see around here, at least I was able to highlight some points of commonality unlike many posters I could name.

You have a hypothesis or some speculation. Why have it as a belief?

 

[gmilam]

So we don't need any empirical support for this hypothesis, we can accept it as obvious, a kind of self-evident truth?

What? That people are afraid of death and would rather not go through it? Yeah, it is a kind-of-obvious self-evident truth.

 

[Pineal]

What? That people are afraid of death and would rather not go through it? Yeah, it is a kind-of-obvious self-evident truth.

Oh, dear. I am so embarrassed. I thought they were arguing something more than that. How terrible of me to misread it.

Oh, wait.....

 

[gmilam]

Oh, dear. I am so embarrassed. I thought they were arguing something more than that. How terrible of me to misread it.

Oh, wait.....

Granted, Fraggle was answering Jan... and I have Jan on ignore. But I can't imagine Jan having anything substantial to offer...

It does seem fairly obvious that people are afraid of death and make up shit as a coping mechanism.

 

[Pineal]

Granted, Fraggle was answering Jan... and I have Jan on ignore. But I can't imagine Jan having anything substantial to offer...

It does seem fairly obvious that people are afraid of death and make up shit as a coping mechanism.

Speculation based on common sense - 'seeming obvious' - is not empirical evidence.

 

[chimpkin]

Yazata:
If you've already said that you do, then you would seem to be suggesting that you can freely state your beliefs but others who disagree with you can't state theirs because it might make you unhappy. There's an assertion of rhetorical power in there that I don't think that I agree with.

Oh, no, I would not do that. If others want to state theirs, that's ok, they just don't get to insist theirs are any more valid than my own.
I can accept others holding different beliefs on any putative afterlife; we're all just guessing. But don't try to insist yours have any more validity than my own. If you do, then you're being...I dunno...spiritually chauvinistic?
Rude, anyway.

 

[wynn]

What? That people are afraid of death and would rather not go through it? Yeah, it is a kind-of-obvious self-evident truth.

Denial is explicable enough.

Making up a particular story to go with that denial, however, does not seem so explicable.