ethics of belief

[chimpkin]

I choose to believe in reincarnation for the following reasons:
-One, if I feel like killing myself, it's one persuasion against it; thinking that I just have to come back and repeat the miserable procedure all over again has been an element in keeping me here.
-Two, I do have to die at some point, and I find the idea of just..stopping either frightening, or frighteningly seductive at painful moments. So my belief will make the inevitable easier for me to handle.
-Three, If I am wrong, I won't know it! wonderfully convenient.

So...ethics of belief.
-If one believes untrue things, and they are not harming anyone else, is it ethical for someone to come along and disabuse you of your helpful nonsense?

-If someone already has a faith...is it ethical to proselyze? I find it nauseatingly arrogant...but is it even ethical to ask someone to shift their beliefs like that? Changing one's world view can be a rather painful interior shift.

-Opposite though...if you have The One True Way that will fix everything...well I suppose you'd better publicize? at which point your One True Way will compete against all the other One True Ways...anyway...

-If one believes things and act on them in ways that ARE harming others...is it ethical to attack( ideologically) the beliefs themselves? or should we only go after the criminals?

If anyone has any other wrinkles to add, feel free. If you think that constitutes ethical behavior

 

[scheherazade]

Perhaps 'belief systems' are nothing more than 'coping strategies' that we are genetically inclined to seek out, both at the individual and collective levels. The 'riddle' of life that adds texture and 'meaning' to existence for many.

'Life' serves it's own purpose in my observation.

Continuance.

Nothing more.

 

[Ripley]

When all is said and done, I believe strangers don't really give a crap about each other. It's a superficial act when either proponent advocates "care" for the other's "well-being". The real act that's going on behind the scenes is a play on power—the will to power.

Personally, I keep to the superficial act of chit-chatting with those whose views are extreme because it's such a bore to define myself to them. I mean, one just wants to escape their company as quickly as possible.

 

[chimpkin]

Well...even when someone believes a pile of really ridiculous stuff (Hmm, I might fit that description too...) I feel caught in a bind: If I actually argued them into chucking their nonsense out...I'd be causing them pain and discomfort.
But I like my nonse...er, spiritual practices...
I would have a great deal of discomfort in the unlikely event they converted me.
But they still try...
Which rather shows you how much they empathize, doesn't it?

Is theri behavior moral or immoral? certainly rude...

 

[Ripley]

But there's the catch: when people are not strangers to each other one will assume that they care, in which case… the friendship grows? I would advocate changing the topic as tactfully as possible.

 

[chimpkin]

when people are not strangers to each other one will assume that they care, in which case… the friendship grows?

:bugeye: Really??? does that work, I wonder? Makes me avoid them like garlic halitosis.

Maybe the atheists shoud start running soup kitchens and youth unministries...after all, half the reason teens go to those youth groups is to meet teens of the opposite (usually) sex to flirt with.

 

[Ripley]

Well, if you think they care, or they think that you think that they care, or perhaps they truly care, a bond is tightened—whether we like it or not. I'm assuming these non-strangers are close?

 

[skaught]

Book of bokonon: "Live by the foma (Harmless untruths) that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."

 

[chimpkin]

Book of bokonon: "Live by the foma (Harmless untruths) that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."

Yep...I read it elsewhere, not in Vonnegut's books, but basically, some of the stuff I believe...it's foma.

It's a shiny concept. *Rolls concept in palm to see it sparkle*

 

[chimpkin]

Well, if you think they care, or they think that you think that they care, or perhaps they truly care, a bond is tightened—whether we like it or not. I'm assuming these non-strangers are close?

You don't live in the bible belt?

Strangers will come up and harangue you about Jeebus here.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Perhaps 'belief systems' are nothing more than 'coping strategies' that we are genetically inclined to seek out, both at the individual and collective levels.

Jung calls them archetypes and finds them in all cultures in all eras, with adaptations and accretions to the particular culture. He didn't know about genetics, but today we'd say that archetypes are instinctive beliefs hard-wired into our neurons by our DNA. This DNA was either a survival trait in an era whose dangers we can't imagine, or a random mutation passed down by genetic drift or through a genetic bottleneck.

You don't live in the bible belt? Strangers will come up and harangue you about Jeebus here.

Holy crap, Chimpkin! I didn't know you live in the Stone Age part of America. That certainly explains a lot! No wonder you're depressed (or whatever condition you said you have). You need to come live with us in civilization. It's a lot nicer out here. We have our share of Religious Redneck Retards, but it's a smaller share and they keep a lower profile.

 

[SciWriter]

Belief without knowing is fine for individual; ex: for comfort.

The moment it is preached as a truth (not just because on likes it) it becomes unethical, since isn't known. Innocents may then blindly follow it as truth.

 

[wynn]

We tend to think

"I should be free to believe and do about myself, others and the world whatever I want,
and I should be happy regardless of what I believe and do about myself, others and the world,
and no harm should ever befall me regardless of what I believe and do about myself, others and the world."


Of course, in reality, things don't work out like that.

Some beliefs that we might have about ourselves, others and the world may actually lead to harm - either that we harm ourselves, harm others, or others harm us.

 

[wynn]

Book of bokonon: "Live by the foma (Harmless untruths) that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."

Duh.
Only in a very perverted Universe would this be possible to begin with.

Only in a very perverted Universe would it be possible to live by the foma, the harmless untruths, and still be brave and kind and healthy and happy.

 

[wynn]

Personally, I keep to the superficial act of chit-chatting with those whose views are extreme because it's such a bore to define myself to them. I mean, one just wants to escape their company as quickly as possible.

Thank you for this.

I mean, it is a helpful outlook that I will make an effort to implement myself.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Ripley,

When all is said and done, I believe strangers don't really give a crap about each other. It's a superficial act when either proponent advocates "care" for the other's "well-being". The real act that's going on behind the scenes is a play on power—the will to power.

Perhaps you're judging people by your own standard?


jan.

 

[wynn]

Perhaps you're judging people by your own standard?

And by whose standard are you judging people - if not by your own?

 

[Ripley]

You don't live in the bible belt?

Strangers will come up and harangue you about Jeebus here.

You make it sound like panhandling. I wonder if there's a correlation? Spiritual beggars, huh? What happens during recruitment when they perceive a non-believer stirring? They feel themselves richer for it, no?

Perhaps you're judging people by your own standard?

Strangers in public will respond to mishaps in others that they would most likely be able to relate to themselves in public— as long as it won't cost them a dime. But even then I've heard of stories in the news where passersby simply ignored another's affliction. But when it comes to more practical, non-urgent and personal matters, such as a stranger's domestic affairs, or financial state, or mental, emotional or spiritual states, the general rule in society is that it's "none of my business". Of course, in a bar setting, things might take-on a curious fervor.

I mean, it is a helpful outlook that I will make an effort to implement myself.

It shouldn't be too difficult: as soon as a haze sets in and words start going in one ear and out the other, I think that should be the cue to take flight.

 

[Yazata]

I choose to believe in reincarnation for the following reasons:
-One, if I feel like killing myself, it's one persuasion against it; thinking that I just have to come back and repeat the miserable procedure all over again has been an element in keeping me here.

But if most theories of reincarnation are true, wouldn't 'you' be reborn as a different person into different circumstances? How can you be sure that 'you' would still want to kill yourself in that new life?

-Two, I do have to die at some point, and I find the idea of just..stopping either frightening, or frighteningly seductive at painful moments. So my belief will make the inevitable easier for me to handle.

Yes, fear of death is probably the biggest motivator for beliefs in an afterlife.

-Three, If I am wrong, I won't know it! wonderfully convenient.

That's true if there is no afterlife. If there's some afterlife that's different than reincarnation, judgement before God, heaven or hell or something, then you would know.

So...ethics of belief.
-If one believes untrue things, and they are not harming anyone else, is it ethical for someone to come along and disabuse you of your helpful nonsense?

Probably. It's kind of a tough question.

Does truth have some value in and of itself? If so, then believing the truth will presumably be better, more valuable, than believing a falsehood.

And how would the other person even know that you believe in reincarnation?

If you've already said that you do, then you would seem to be suggesting that you can freely state your beliefs but others who disagree with you can't state theirs because it might make you unhappy. There's an assertion of rhetorical power in there that I don't think that I agree with.

Of course, people shouldn't be sadistic and cause other people pain for no good reason either.

And if you haven't already said anything about your beliefs, must other people remain silent about anything that anyone else might conceivably find unpleasant? That could be anything and would seem to demand total silence.

I tend to favor freedom of speech, but basic humanity also suggests that it can be a good idea to back off if what we are saying is creating unnecessary suffering.

-If someone already has a faith...is it ethical to proselyze? I find it nauseatingly arrogant...but is it even ethical to ask someone to shift their beliefs like that? Changing one's world view can be a rather painful interior shift.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that one. I have no problems with very discreet proselytism though. It's perfectly fine with me if religious alternatives make their presence known to anyone who might be interested. But I agree with you in finding missionaries and streetcorner evangelists kind of repulsive.

-Opposite though...if you have The One True Way that will fix everything...well I suppose you'd better publicize? at which point your One True Way will compete against all the other One True Ways...anyway...

Create a website or something. They can let themselves be known to anyone interested, without forcing themselves into the faces of people who aren't.

-If one believes things and act on them in ways that ARE harming others...is it ethical to attack( ideologically) the beliefs themselves? or should we only go after the criminals?

If the beliefs are motivating people to cause harm or commit crimes, then I see nothing wrong with criticising the beliefs.

Of course in real life, the connections between beliefs and actions might be kind of loose. People may use their beliefs to justify something that they wanted to do anyway, for totally different reasons. There's lots of rationalization out there.

But even then, I'd expect more ethical and humane believers in those beliefs to condemn the harmful rationalizations. If the bulk of believers respond instead by trying to defend the unethical practice as having been commanded by god or something, then that's excellent reason to criticize the belief system as well as the actions.

 

[wynn]

Yes, fear of death is probably the biggest motivator for beliefs in an afterlife.

As far as I can tell, for me, the biggest motivator for believing in karma and reincarnation is the concept of justice.

Because without karma and reincarnation, life seems too injust and it seems too impossible for me to bear injustice without invoking karma nad reincarnation.