Entire Middle East Not Worth the Bones of a Single US Marine

Madanthonywayne: "We're spending billions of dollars and thousands of our soldier's lives to protect [Iraqis] from the extreemists."

And we are failing stupendously.

"If we pull out prematurely, it will mean we no longer consider Iraqis people."

That's not logical. Our presence has been causing Iraqis misery.

"It will also mean we consider Islam a devil religion unworthy of our efforts."

Also illogical. If you honestly respect another religion there is no reason to make "efforts" upon it.

"The people of the middle east "not ready" for self government."

That's nothing more than a sick reprise of the White Man's Burden.

"We are there because we are treating the Iraqis as people."

We are not treating them as we would like to be treated, in ignorance of the basic principle that we all want to be treated fairly, and to be allowed to carry out our own affairs. We have violated Iraqi sovereignty in ways that Americans would certainly tolerate no more peacefully.

"[Bush] believed, perhaps wrongly, that the Iraqi people would embrace democracy if given the chance."

Then he far exceeded his authority. Bush 43 was not elected or Constitutionally empowered to install democracies abroad by force.
 
madanthonywayne said:
Students of history may recall Bismarck's quote:
“The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.”​
Should the US pull out of Iraq before the situation is stabilized, it will not be because of any sense of hubris or respect. It will be because:

The US is trying to change the face of the middle east, to bring democracy to a region that heretofore has known only tyrany. We're condemned by the Sunni's, the Shia's, the Iranians, the Saudi's, and our own media. Our attempt to bring democracy to the middle east is described as imperialism. All we see on TV is death and destruction and images of Muslims denouncing the US.

What is the result of all this? A growing resentment of Muslims in general and a sense that bringing democracy to Muslims is not worth the loss of any US soldiers. Or, as one man said,


So, if you get the early withdrawl you want, enjoy it. Savor it. But don't think is signifies increased respect for other cultures or opinions. It doesn't. It signifies that the American people have decided to write off the middle east. They have decided that the entire middle east is not worth the bones of one US marine.

Check out this article that, no doubt, makes this argument better than me:
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson042807.html

I still believe the war can be won, but we must convince American voters it is worth it. Otherwise we'll pull out early and chaos will ensue.
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The bones of a single arab is not worth the whole of America.
 
On another forum, a member is sharing his father's memories of combat in Vietnam. It is strikingly relevant. Some excerpts:

More than once I got asked “Why are we here, what’s the war about?”

In the beginning, I said what I had been told, and what I believed—that we were fighting communism, and helping the Vietnamese to control their own destiny; to ensure free elections, the democratic process, and to keep the north from taking over the south. After being in the war for a few months, those stock answers made me puke. The next few times the new kids asked me the same question, I answered. “I don’t know, maybe just to put in our time and go home,” because I really didn’t know.....

I gave the word for the M-60’s to open up. They started off on the trees as we got ready to sprint. No return fire yet. Suddenly there were hordes of people running toward us from out of the trees. We dove back behind the dike.

“Cease fire! Cease fire!” I shrieked at the top of my lungs. They weren’t soldiers; they were women and children.

“I see people rushing you; do you want the Cobras on them?” I could hear Duke-Three questioning over the radio.

“No, No, Goddamn it, they’re civilians!” I yelled. I could see the two Cobras overhead queuing up to roll in again.

The machine gunners had quit the moment I yelled cease fire. They were good men; the best. Sixty terrorized Vietnamese came running out of that tree square straight toward us. If we had taken any incoming fire at all, I’m sure my guys would have dropped them all, but they didn’t. They held back and nobody fired.

Duke-Three couldn’t tell what was going on in all the confusion. He demanded a report. I was surrounded by screaming crying Vietnamese. Many of them were wounded. They had been hiding in their homes and gotten shot up by the cobras. Now they were bleeding all over us. My men put aside their weapons and began tending to the wounded.

“Duke-Three, we’ve got a lot of wounded friendlies down here. Can you get any aid teams out from Tracy?” I questioned.

“Roger Barron Two-Six, I’ll get what I can.” He answered.

What a crock of shit! All these shot up Vietnamese for what? Were they going to like us any better for this screw up? I left three men at the dike to help with the wounded and we headed for the tree square. I hoped to God that we would find some VC; something, anything to justify the destruction that the Cobras had brought down on these people. We walked slowly, hoping to get shot at. Hoping that the US Army didn’t destroy people’s homes and terrorize them for no reason at all.

I was sure that my men hadn’t shot any of these people but we were part of everything that had happened, and because of that I felt responsible. We moved into the little village looking for vindication. Fires raged everywhere. Dead livestock littered the area. These people’s whole lives were going up in smoke courtesy of Uncle Sam. Rounding a corner I could see three bodies out in the open in the village square. They wore US uniforms; part of the snatch team no doubt. Moving over to the first one, I rolled him over with the toe of my boot. A familiar face stared lifelessly at me. It was Yung! He had three holes in his chest marked by patches of dried blood. I cursed the war. It was all bullshit—Yung’s favorite word. So much for Yung’s one afternoon with the recon platoon. My little “brother-in-law” was dead.

We found no VC in the village. Whatever happened went down long before we got there. We loaded the dead onto choppers and flew silently back to Tracy.

My contempt for the war was growing by leaps and bounds. My original premise that we were in Vietnam to help a valiant population fight off the advances of sinister communism had been shelved long ago. When Ty had dropped me off at Travis, I was armed with statistics—that 85% of the eligible voters in Vietnam had voted in the last “free” election and that it was our duty as good Americans to insure that the democratic process was allowed to flourish. How embarrassing. After several months of being there, I realized that the Vietnamese people wouldn’t recognize “democracy” if it bit them in the ass. What’s more, they couldn’t care less. The people did understand the village elder and the local boss, however, and that’s all they needed at that point in their evolution. I couldn’t fathom why we as Americans had to shove democracy down their throats or kill them. We feel the national urge to reshape backward nations with hundreds of years of history in our own democratic image. The war, for the Vietnamese, was a power struggle between two different factions, who cares what labels they used; for control of the country. It was Vietnamese fighting Vietnamese in a civil war. Kind of like if some foreign powers cut California in to two states by running a line across the state at Salinas , and all the northern Californians went down to southern California to fight for control of the whole state. I knew it was a simplistic explanation, but it was better than “Saving the country for democracy”.
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2448795&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
 
madanthonywayne said:
Anyway, I'd say we're treating the people of Iraq like people already. We're spending billions of dollars and thousands of our soldier's lives to protect them from the extreemists.
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And what a good job the coalition forces have done so far.

The extremists came into Iraq after it was invaded. You have different factions now attempting to gain power, in a vacuum left by, yes, us, and you now have outside forces flooding into the country to attempt to stop the Western tide from instilling Western beliefs and politics in a country that is simply not ready for it.

Did the US and her allies ask the people of Iraq if they wanted a democracy as it is currently being imposed before you invaded? No. They were not given a choice. They still aren't being given a choice. Yes Saddam was a sadistic bastard and yes he had to go. But you went about it the wrong way. The extremists came into Iraq after you invaded. You reap what you sow.

If we pull out prematurely, it will mean we no longer consider Iraqis people.
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You don't anyway.

But you're right. If you pull out now, you will help that country enter a bigger hell hole than it is in currently. You need to finish what you started and you need to do it as quickly as possible. You should never have invaded in the first place and your continual presence there will ensure that the extremists keep flooding in. Building a wall will only further enrage the Iraqis who will see it as further intrusion into their lives by you.

You were asked by the Iraqi Government and the people of Iraq to stop building the wall, but you ignored their wishes. It is their country, not yours. Such blatant actions will cause further extremists to come forth. Iraqis who feel disenfranchised by the US presence and now the wall will turn to extremism. You have created a situation where ordinary Iraqis will turn to extremists as a means to combat you. Your so called attempt to build up a democratic nation has failed.

It will also mean we consider Islam a devil religion unworthy of our efforts.
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You did before you invaded. What's your point?

The people of the middle east "not ready" for self government.
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Knowing this, why did you invade Iraq in the bid to build up a democratic government in the first place?

I would imagine they are able to self-govern under their own terms and ways. It is a shame they were never given the opportunity to do so.

We are there because we are treating the Iraqis as people.
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Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

Because I doubt the people living in Iraq would agree with you at the moment.

After decades of cynical deals with despots, Bush decided the time was right to begin treating the Iraqis like people.
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Yes, after decades of cynical deals with despots (by the US no less), they get you. Yes. Talk about falling out of the pan and into the fire.

He believed, perhaps wrongly, that the Iraqi people would embrace democracy if given the chance.
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You cannot embrace any form of government, not even democracy, when you are living in an occupied country. You are the occupiers. As I said, you need to finish what you started and get out as soon as possible. Setting a date for withdrawal is a start. It might make you work a bit faster to ensure the poor souls in that country can then move forward.
 
madanthonywayne said:
After decades of cynical deals with despots, Bush decided the time was right to begin treating the Iraqis like people. He believed, perhaps wrongly, that the Iraqi people would embrace democracy if given the chance.
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Why didn't Bush and his administration listen to the Muslims in America and the Middle East before engaging in this war? This war was unilateral, and we have been against this war since the beginning, yet I doubt the Americans went in iaq for the sake of the people. I guess that is also the reason for the economic sanctions banning much needed food, water, and medicine, and constant bombing of Iraq during the 90's.

The premise that the Bush administration cares for the Iraqi people is not factual at all. Why the very proof is that Bush, and his republican supporters are the first to condemn Islam is an evil religion. They denigrate our culture and religion, why would I believe they care about us. The people of the Middle East are tired of American hegemony. This is the reason why you have so much opposition in Iraq. Not to mention the hundreds of Abu Ghraib jails in Iraq which continue to operate with Bush's love for the Iraqis.

If you love the Iraqi people, then leave Iraq and bring in Islamic countries to solve this mess. This administration has caused too much problems in the Muslim world already, its time America left for good.
 
madanthonywayne said:
Students of history may recall Bismarck's quote:
“The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.”​
Should the US pull out of Iraq before the situation is stabilized, it will not be because of any sense of hubris or respect. It will be because:

The US is trying to change the face of the middle east, to bring democracy to a region that heretofore has known only tyrany. We're condemned by the Sunni's, the Shia's, the Iranians, the Saudi's, and our own media. Our attempt to bring democracy to the middle east is described as imperialism. All we see on TV is death and destruction and images of Muslims denouncing the US.

What is the result of all this? A growing resentment of Muslims in general and a sense that bringing democracy to Muslims is not worth the loss of any US soldiers. Or, as one man said,


So, if you get the early withdrawl you want, enjoy it. Savor it. But don't think is signifies increased respect for other cultures or opinions. It doesn't. It signifies that the American people have decided to write off the middle east. They have decided that the entire middle east is not worth the bones of one US marine.

Check out this article that, no doubt, makes this argument better than me:
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson042807.html

I still believe the war can be won, but we must convince American voters it is worth it. Otherwise we'll pull out early and chaos will ensue.
Click to expand...

Hahaha,
Can you say sour grapes?
 
Bells said:
But you're right. If you pull out now, you will help that country enter a bigger hell hole than it is in currently. You need to finish what you started and you need to do it as quickly as possible. As I said, you need to finish what you started and get out as soon as possible. Setting a date for withdrawal is a start. It might make you work a bit faster to ensure the poor souls in that country can then move forward.
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We are actually in agreement, partially. Regardless of the wisdom of going in, we are morally obligated to set things right before we leave. Leaving too soon will leave a power vacuum and result in genocide and turn the area into a safe haven for terrorists.

But (and it's a big but), I don't see how you can suggest we set a date for withdrawl with a straight face. How the fuck can you do that?

Would we call up the Islamofascists and say,
Yes, is this Islamofascist HQ? OK. Good. Well, we're going to be leaving on October 31 this year and we'd really appreciate it if you guys would all come out of hiding right away so we could kill you before then. What? You're not going to do that? You're going to marshall your forces for an all out attack as soon as we leave? Well, that's not very sporting now, is it?​

You can't fight a war on a time table. It's over when it's over. We gradually train the Iraqis to defend themselves and remove US forces from areas under their control. Knowing full well that we will occasionally have to go back in and help out.

How what I just described is imperialism or "hating Islam", I fail to understand. Saying
"We're leaving on October 31, go fuck yourself after that"​
is showing distain for Iraqis. Saying we will stay until the job is done is showing respect.
 
Baron Max said:
What evidence or logical reasoning do you have to support that assertion? Is it just because there's a few radical Iraqi individuals who are blowing other Iraqis up?

Baron Max
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OK. Give me evidence when a Middle Eastern country succeeding in implementing and maintaining a stable democracy after a larger democratic country invaded it and intended to implement it.

If you can, I'll retract what I said.

Otherwise, the evidence is overwhelmingly on my argument, because there isn't any well-functioning democracy in the Middle East that fits that description. You might try to point to Turkey, but Turkey became democratic after revolutions against the Ottoman Empire. Lebanon is probably another example people might try to point to, but that isn't a well-functioning democracy, as south is completely Hezbollah-controlled. The central Lebanese-government still exercises little control over these areas.

Syria, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, Pakistan, Iran, etc... none of these are democracies. And Afghanistan? LOL.

Iran was once a democracy, but the Americans and British disposed of the Mossadegh government and replaced it with an autocratic shah.
 
madanthonywayne said:
We are actually in agreement, partially. Regardless of the wisdom of going in, we are morally obligated to set things right before we leave. Leaving too soon will leave a power vacuum and result in genocide and turn the area into a safe haven for terrorists.
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I disagree with this statement. If you believe that the US is on a civilizing mission, then yes, this assertion would make sense, however I firmly believe, as do most Iraqis and Muslims, that America is the cause of the divide of the Sunnis and the Shiat to began with. It is when you favor one group while completely condemning the other that this kind of civil war starts.

madanthonywayne said:
Would we call up the Islamofascists and say,
Yes, is this Islamofascist HQ? OK. Good. Well, we're going to be leaving on October 31 this year and we'd really appreciate it if you guys would all come out of hiding right away so we could kill you before then. What? You're not going to do that? You're going to marshall your forces for an all out attack as soon as we leave? Well, that's not very sporting now, is it?​
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This statement brings up a variety of false assertions on your part. Those fighting against America in Iraq are not Islamofascists, fundamentalists, or whatever you may want to call them. These are small Iraqi groups who believe they are fighting for the defense of their people. Even the term Islamofascist, is a very degrading xenophobic term which means absolutely nothing. You must understand that in a society which is in turmoil, various groups arise, many which are exploiting the situation of lawlessness in Iraq, however not all these groups can be are necessarily evil. There are still people in Iraq with pride in their country who believe fighting oppression is a noble endeavor. Another point, Muslims generally don't like it when people use the term Islamofascist, as this term is used alot by Islam-haters and those who continue to pray on the ignorance of the masses such as some evangelical organizations in America.

Whether you agree or not, the situation from an Iraqi persepective unfolds like this. Saddam is a brutal dictator supported by the West. When the oil-rich province of Kuwait breaks away from Iraq, the US attacks Iraq. Sanctions and continous bombing in the 90s leave Iraqi socitey in shambles with a million children dead of malnutrition. In 2003, the US military fabricates the myth of WMDs in Iraq to finish off the once proud nation, which has been weakened from the most powerful Arab nation to begging for relief from sanctions. The US military plays the different Iraqi parties against each other igniting civil war. Then the US uses this situation to maintain their right to stay on Iraqi land and privatise their oil fields to American companies.

madanthonywayne said:
How what I just described is imperialism or "hating Islam", I fail to understand. Saying
"We're leaving on October 31, go fuck yourself after that"​
is showing distain for Iraqis. Saying we will stay until the job is done is showing respect.
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Saying the Entire Middle East is not worth a single American sounds pretty rascist to me. If you really feel that way, America needs to leave the Middle East forever, that would make both our people happy. I'm sure those innocent people in the Middle East rotting in American dungeons from Guantanamo, to Abu Gharib to Bagram would be better off. I mean we have 12 year-olds and 14-year-olds in Guantanamo, where is the humanity?
 
DubStyle said:
Israel is well functioning democracy in the middle east.



Pwnt
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Maybe when Israel gets rid of its Jewish-only roads and villages, recognizes the right of its Arab neighbors to live in peace, and dismantles its settlements on Palestinian land we can discuss how it as a democracy.
 
DiamondHearts said:
Maybe when Israel gets rid of its Jewish-only roads and villages, recognizes the right of its Arab neighbors to live in peace, and dismantles its settlements on Palestinian land we can discuss how it as a democracy.
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Which Jewish-only villages? What proof do you have of this? And roads? Are you referring to the interruption of traffic for the reason of searching out suicide bombers? And which settlements should they demolish? All settlements, everywhere? And how democratic are its neighbours? - since some people here feel the need to express things in relativistic terms.
 
GeoffP said:
Which Jewish-only villages? What proof do you have of this? And roads? Are you referring to the interruption of traffic for the reason of searching out suicide bombers? And which settlements should they demolish? All settlements, everywhere? And how democratic are its neighbours? - since some people here feel the need to express things in relativistic terms.
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Ermm Geoff, most of the settlements in Isreal are Jewish only. And no, traffic is not interrupted to just search for suicide bombers. Traffic is closed to all Palestinians if someone from any of the settlements wish to drive down said roads.

It is common knowledge and policy.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGMDE150932006
 
Thanks, Bells. I'll take a look at the doc. However, I disagree quite fundamentally with DH that the situation would be peaceful in any event, as the historical perspective indicates. I also disagree that the reason for the economic collapse of Palestine is Israel: Israel is responding to the Intifada. Travel restrictions only came into play therein. In that light, how unreasonable are they? I also wonder at the language DH uses: "get rid of", a phrase he employs above with respect to Jewish habitations, has a certain connotation.
 
GeoffP said:
: Israel is responding to the Intifada. Travel restrictions only came into play therein. In that light, how unreasonable are they? .
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dear geoff,

I hope all is well.

i was wondering what the resistance/intifada over the least 40 years was in response too.

~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak
 
Zakariya04 said:
dear geoff,

I hope all is well.

i was wondering what the resistance/intifada over the least 40 years was in response too.

~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak
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Hey Zak,
Are those noisy palestinians and arabs still yelling anti-Israeli slogans with fog horns out there at oxford circus???
 
Vega said:
It's been awhile since I was in London.
Well almost everytime I head out to central London I hear a horde of them protesting!. I assume they still at it?
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I was actuallty passing through oxford circus on Wednesday last week and there was not any protests.

At least protesting is better than their usual counter-productive tactics

~~~~~
Take it ez
zak
 
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