Electric cars are a pipe dream
- Thread starter Syzygys
- Start date
But it is not the PHEV ElectricFetus was speaking of. I don't know but think the Volt will have more than 35HP capacity.
The most important fact about EV versus ICE is the time factor.
At present the average ICE vehicle will provide for the average person's needs far better than any EV. However, that does not prevent a lot of people buying small EVs for various reasons.
However, the future of the EV is in the future. I have suggested 20 years. There is a lot of catch up. The ICE has been the subject of mega billions of dollars of research and development over 100 plus years. R and D for EV's by comparison has been sporadic, and even today is less than it should be.
For this reason, the line of argument followed by phlogistan and others is a total red herring. Of course a 2010 petrol car will outperform a 2010 electric car.
However, battery technology is improving dramatically. I have posted references showing :
1. Lithium batteries can be made with ten times the energy storage of current models.
2. Lithium batteries can be made that recharge in minutes
3. Lithium batteries can be made that retain their ability to store energy for at least ten years.
In 20 years we will have lithium battery operated EV's that combine all three.
So let's dump the red herring, admit that in 2010 the ICE is better than the EV, and look to the future.
At present the average ICE vehicle will provide for the average person's needs far better than any EV. However, that does not prevent a lot of people buying small EVs for various reasons.
However, the future of the EV is in the future. I have suggested 20 years. There is a lot of catch up. The ICE has been the subject of mega billions of dollars of research and development over 100 plus years. R and D for EV's by comparison has been sporadic, and even today is less than it should be.
For this reason, the line of argument followed by phlogistan and others is a total red herring. Of course a 2010 petrol car will outperform a 2010 electric car.
However, battery technology is improving dramatically. I have posted references showing :
1. Lithium batteries can be made with ten times the energy storage of current models.
2. Lithium batteries can be made that recharge in minutes
3. Lithium batteries can be made that retain their ability to store energy for at least ten years.
In 20 years we will have lithium battery operated EV's that combine all three.
So let's dump the red herring, admit that in 2010 the ICE is better than the EV, and look to the future.
Why not?
You could, I don't know, look it up, lets do that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
"1.4 L 4-cylinder for powering 55 kW (74 hp) generator*"
"http://archives.media.gm.com/archive/documents/domain_38/docId_48931_pr.html"
I don't believe either 1 or 2 is possible. I went back last four pages looking for your posted links, but did not find. Please repost them for 1 & 2.
The recharge rate is limited limited by the active surface area. That can be made huge on a atomic scale compared to the gross area of the plates, so recharge in minutes may be possible, but I think even that will be very hard to achieve on hot days because each electron exchanged with a plate gives a small amount of heat to the plate. At some charge rate this heat will permanently damage the electrode plate(s).
And I have repeated stated that the 2 and 3 have already been achieved in the last few years by companies like A123 and Altairnano
Only better conditionally.
You said the motor generator would weight 200kg. I think that implies much less than 74 HP output power from the generator for the electric motor(s) driving the wheels, but I will now read you other links to see if the 1.4L 4-cylinder gas motor powering the generator for output of 74HP is that light in weight.
Perhaps 3 did not really mean it could store energy for 10 years, but intended to say it could be used to store and discharge energy for 10 years. I was predicting that no battery (or capacitor, for that matter) has such a low self discharge rate that it can store engey for 10 years. Hell even gasoline would get very "gummy" in that time and be nearly useless.
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't exclude the use of a turbine when I say "motor" but both have necessary support weight. I think a compressor to ram air to higher density is usually used with turbines etc.Sure, but I could have also meant a turbine generator
Not that I totally disagree, but I would modify that a bit.
First, much of the research and development money has been on the car structure, safety, comfort, efficiency, handling, braking, tires, lights etc. and almost all of that is carried over to the very first EV, so when you look at the Volt, the Plug in Prius, the Tesla etc you are looking at cars every bit as comfortable and capable as an ICE for most uses and sometimes more. Consider the Volt, what intrinsic limitation do you see it have compared to an equivilent priced ICE?
Sure, for SOME users the current lack of infrastructure to provide the same level of convenience an ICE has will mean they will stick with an ICE. Others won't initially find the capacity (load or passengers) they need in an EV and so will stick with ICEs, but that's not to say that EVs (of all types) won't initially find a large enough segment of the market to make many models of EV competitive and from that beginning the market is simply going to grow as the innovations you mention (and others you didn't) come about.
Finally, the one area that the EV beats the ICE is gas milage and CO2 per mile, and for a lot of people that trumps all others and so it isn't fair to say that the ICE is better than the EV, just a different way of solving the transportation problem.
Arthur
Sure they do but a airfoil bearing microturbine even with the weight of the recuperate does not have any weight for lubrication system or water cooling (radiator, pumps, heatsinks, etc) and turbines are easily capable of many times the power to weight ratio of reciprocating engines.
That link doe not tell the weight but does give a photo of the supercharged 4 liter engine generator:
Electricfetus' other link did not tell any weights but did say:
"...The Volt will also be available through a lease program with a monthly payment of US$350 for 36 months, with US$2,500 due at lease signing, and with an option to buy at the end of the lease. "
350x36 = 12,600 plus the initial 2,500 is $15,100 and 5k/per year seems affordable, even if you just walk away at the end of 3 years as then your fuel saving are essentially without discount to present value dollars. For a traveling sales man putting 100,000 miles/ per year on a car with overnight recharge from his motel's power, that is a very good deal. (except I bet the fine print in the rental agreement limits the annual mileage.)
Last edited by a moderator:
It probably is.
GM went with a modification of an existing engine for the initial Volt. Designing a new engine and a plant line to put it together, considering the low initial volumes they expect to ship, was just too expensive. The motor is a bit bigger than they need. Like the Prius, expect later models to improve on many areas of the initial car.
Arthur
GM went with a modification of an existing engine for the initial Volt. Designing a new engine and a plant line to put it together, considering the low initial volumes they expect to ship, was just too expensive. The motor is a bit bigger than they need. Like the Prius, expect later models to improve on many areas of the initial car.
Arthur
Here is one that weights 111 kg and does 81 kw.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o01.jpg/300px-AVCOLycomingO-235C2CPhoto01.jpg
So yes 200 kg at ~75Kw is possible even with a reciprocating engine.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o01.jpg/300px-AVCOLycomingO-235C2CPhoto01.jpg
So yes 200 kg at ~75Kw is possible even with a reciprocating engine.
Anyone see the LincVolt? It's a hybrid 1959 Lincoln Continental.
http://www.lincvolt.com/
http://www.lincvolt.com/
Yes it clearly is in an airplane, probably is getting air flow cooling and perhaps some airflow compression of the air for it turbine or at least
it super charger; but none of that works when stuck in traffic. Also it looks like engine is mainly some light weight Al alloy. How many hours will it safely run?
If a car goes 100,000 miles at average speed or 25mph (go at 5mph or less in city traffic where most of EV's miles will be (not on the interstates at 75mph) that is 4,000 hours of run time on the engine. I doubt that light weight engine can do that without major overhaul, but I am just guessing.
Fraggle is a flier - perhaps he will comment.
No its not supercharged or turbocharged, and how much do your think a radiator and liquid cooling system will weigh, the other 90 kg? Also alot of car engines these days are aluminum alloy.
We are talking a PHEV here, its not going to be running often.
That engine is rated 2,000 hours until overhaul, but then aircraft engines are held to a higher degree of reliability, one can't pull over to the shoulder if the engine quits.
But, an aircraft engine is all about power to weight ratio, so you really can't compare that engine to an automobile engine as it is FAR more expensive per horsepower produced than an automobile engine and is designed to run on 100 octane fuel. I don't think EF is that far off with his estimate of weight but an aircooled aircraft engine is not a good example either.
In any case I think you are chasing a red herring. The impact of a couple of hundred pounds of weight isn't that big of a deal to the milage you get in an automobile. You only pay for it in acceleration, and most EVs get most of that loss back via regenerative braking. Once you are up to speed, the impact of a few hundred pounds of weight is negligable because rolling resistance is very low and essentially the same +/- 200 lbs.
Arthur
Billy
You did not go back far enough.
My reference for fast recharge is post 336 on page 17
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=better-battery-lithium-ion-cell-gets-supercharged
My reference for higher capacity was post 367.
This bloody thread goes so fast we cannot keep up!
My