I realize EV's are not new however there has been NO ongoing large scale research,development,production over the last 100 yrs like with the gas/oil auto's.So comparing the 2 is much like oranges and apples and isnt really fair to EV's. We are only in the beginning of EV's,renewable energies and all other alternatives to gas/oil.Slowly though more and more milestones are beginning to happen with these technologies and we will see leaps forward once enough people get involved.It's going to be a long road to change over no doubt and it seems like many people dont understand that.None of us know for sure how all this is going to play out and what technologies will be big and which ones wont be.I just know change is happening everyday and will keep building up.I'm 46 and know I wont see many of the changes in the future,I just know gas/oil will be replaced completely.It will be a different world.
Electric cars are a pipe dream
- Thread starter Syzygys
- Start date
Did. £23.9k, incentive was approved, and a COMPARABLE ICE car is not to be had for £10k as you suggested, but more like £16-£180k.
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosi...02&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=414706&SubjectId=36
The difference is an electric motor is not a IC reciprocating engine and thus the lifetime of its bearings should easily be twice that of an ICE. Of course there is also no Transmission, Ignition, cooling system or exhaust system, which by 100,000 miles are all looking to be replaced on an ICE powered car.
Arthur
Approved? The Nissan web site says 'subject to approval', and even if it were, it wouldn't start until January 2011, and the pool of money available has been reduced by the recent government,... and people have to apply and be 'eligible', so it's in no way clear cut or guaranteed to happen.
I didn't suggest a comparable car can be had for £10k. I said it could be had for £10k less than the leaf. Even if you get the discount, you are looking at nearly 14K for a petrol car, which puts a lot of compacts within budget.
'should', great way to sway investors, pie in the sky hopeful affirmations. Petrol engines _do_ last 100k miles. Diesels more. Current, affordable solutions.
Bzzzzt! Yes there is. Of course there is. It's just fixed. Power _has_ to get from the engine to the wheels, that's the transmission. Apart from the gearbox element, the rest is the same.
No cooling system? You sure about that? The Tesla certainly has coolant pumped through it's batteries. The Leaf currently uses a passive air cooling system, but that is set to change in newer models, and the Ford Focus EV has liquid coolant.
LOL, yes you do have an exhaust system. It's just not connected to the car! It's at the other end of power grid, belching coal or oil generated fumes into the air someplace else! But how often do you change the exhaust on a car? Our last 4x4 did 112k miles with the original. My father just put a stainless one on his old Morris Minor, that'll last a lifetime.
Clearly not, and your EV possesses many of the same parts. But still, that was an attempt to draw away the criticism of the cost of replacing the batteries in your EV, which is considerable. BTW, did you know the cost of servicing a Prius is higher than regular petrol car?
The number is very relevant. If there is enough demand for the vehicles, there will be demand for infrastructure to support them. If not, then not.
Nope. It's just not legal, and won't become so, because you can't reverse a doubly articulated vehicle. End of story.
You've never worked in Health and safety have you? People do stupid things. People used to shove rags into their fuel pipes if they lost their petrol filler cap ffs. People drive cars, and crash them, people then make crappy repairs with tape etc. The charging socket on the Leaf is placed so a front end shunt could damage it. So, if someone does that, and then tries to push a charger in, it could get interesting. Don't say it won't happen either, it will. I used to perform PAT in a couple of jobs. I've seen lashed up unsafe electrical equipment in daily use.
The number of registered vehicles is half that figure,... and that figure of 10,000 is for a customised Japanese Import! That's before we start talking about VW campers, VW T4's, Ford Transit conversions, Fiat Ducatos, ...
The Caravan Club has half a million members, there are half a million caravans, and over 112,000 motorhomes, not to mention the 'day van' conversions like ours. These account for one fifth of the time people spend on holiday. It's a large market.
Your problem though, is that you divide up the market incorrectly. Those people that don't tow, probably still need a longer range a few times per year, if they aren't holidaying in the UK, in a van, they probably drive to an airport. They might tour, and rent accomodation. An EV might satisfy 95% of their travel needs, but they aren't going to buy one if it doesn't suit them for 100%. You can't say that EVs can take 95% or 80% of the market then.
Yeah, a mate of mine had a Prius. He got rid of it when he started having to commute long distances, as it's performance was crap, and it wasn't any cheaper on motorway journeys. People are buying them, but not in great numbers., because of their limitations.
Like that matters. How long is the battery of a PHEV going to last when I'm towing 1000kg of caravan? What % over 300 miles? The portion of power provided by that initial charge will be 10% at best. So it may satisfy daily commute requirements, but it then means I'm using electricity every day to haul around a useless diesel engine, electricity that is created by burning fossil fuels, ie, a dead weight leading to increased consumption. Not a result.
I linked to the Transportation dept, not Nissan. People don't have to be elilgible, the cars do, and YES it's going to happen.
So what, petrol cars can be had for much more than the Leaf. Gotta compare apples to apples.
True but entirely deceptive, EVs have no need for either GEARING or a CLUTCH mechanism (or hydraulics of a automatic), which is the essense of a transmission.
Should have been clearer, no PRESSURISED cooling systems. But ok, let's not quibble, I'll take that off the things that differentiate them. Still plenty left.
No, they don't have exhaust systems, and that grid is also connected to Wind, Solar or Hydro and FIXED power plants don't BELCH nearly as much as mobile sources and more importantly, don't do it in the middle of the city.
Well I've replaced a fair number of mufflers in my lifetime and a catatyic converter and in one case, from the headers on back. They are pretty reliable but time is not on their side.
The parts count on a true EV is far lower than a ICE.
The Prius is really an ICE car with a battery driven assist at low speeds, so it has all the parts of an ICE car and also all the parts of an EV car and it gets no power from the Grid and thus is not what would be considered an EV.
Arthur
I am really ignorant about these details (why learn - they will soon change). Are you telling us that the Prius has a gasoline ICE that via gears, drive shaft, etc. delivers mechanical power to the wheels?
If that is the case I would agree it is not an EV, but an conventional car with electric boost capacity.
For me there are only two types of EVs:
One is a "pure EV" and has no gasoline engine (this class can be subdivided based on how its batteries are recharged or just swapped for charged ones)
The other class has a gasoline ICE (and all that goes with that) but that powerful ICE which only drives a full power capacity generator.
I.e. the car still is safe to drive after the battery is fully discharged. I, for one, would not buy one if when the battery is dead I could not longer quickly get out of the way of some drunk or crazy driver who just ran a red light and would hit me if I don't accelerate out of his way. That is why I said a "full power electric generator" - Not a trickle recharger or low power ICE and generator you can limp home on.
Perhaps I am biased as I have three times been in situations were power, responsibly used, has probably saved my life. Adequate brakes have done that more than a 1000 times, but no one is suggesting that EV could be lighter if they had smaller capacity brakes (as some are suggesting they have inadequate ICE motor-generators)
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry, but an EV requires kilowatts of electricity to recharge. The quick charge requires 420v @ 125A for 20+ mins, or you need a wall socket 220v @ 13A for eight hours, near as dammit 23KwH.
Show me Solar Power than can provide anywhere near that power! Hell, I'm looking at solar power for my camper, and it costs about £300 just to get a panel that can power a coolbox, and that's assuming it's sunny, which it isn't during the night, so you need over capacity + storage = more cost.
Simple fact is EVs are NOT zero emission vehicles, just that the crap is pumped into the atmosphere elsewhere, and then power is lost in transmission, and then you charge a battery with it.
An 11Kw wind turbine (because it's not always windy and we need over capacity + storage) costs £60k (installed). That doesn't include storage batteries, but you could sell power to the grid, and get it back later. 3Kw can be had for £3k (self assembly) it seems. Although 3Kw is only enough to charge your car if the turbine is running at full speed.
So, really, a car is a still a car, with the same energy requirements. Just because you aren't making a mess on your own doorstep, doesn't mean you aren't making one. Be honest, and buy a petrol vehicle.
A different way to look at it (fits with these discussions better) is an EV is any vehicle that in typical use gets the energy for a substantial percent of it's miles from the Grid.
How it does this is only an issue of which technology and limitations a given user is comfortable with.
Thus in this definition, no current model Prius hybrid drives are EVs, instead they are really just very efficient ICEs and all their mileage comes from the fossil fuel they carry with them.
Now, when Toyota releases their Plug in Hybrids, which have a much larger battery, and IF in typical use they get a substantial amount of their milage from the grid, then they too will be part of the switch to EVs.
One can debate about how much is "substantial", but I'd say it has to be above 25% in typical use.
That might seem low, but today we only get about 1% of our transportation energy from Electricity and most of that is various forms of rail.
Arthur
Thanks for link on Pirus. I had no idea it was so complex It seems it has a full weight ICE and complex transmission:
“… The mechanical gearing design of the system allows the mechanical power from the ICE engine to be split three ways: extra torque at the wheels (under constant rotation speed), extra rotation speed at the wheels (under constant torque), and power for an electric generator. A computer program running appropriate actuators controls the systems and directs the power flow from the different engine + motor sources. This power split achieves the benefits of a continuously variable transmission (CVT), except that the torque/speed conversion uses an electric motor rather than a direct mechanical gear train connection….”
One look at this cut-a-way motor-transmission- two electric motor-generator system makes me think it ain’t ever going to be cheaper or lighter in weight. What are the facts? I.e. How does it compare in weight and price to comparable standard car. Do you need a PhD to service it?
“… The mechanical gearing design of the system allows the mechanical power from the ICE engine to be split three ways: extra torque at the wheels (under constant rotation speed), extra rotation speed at the wheels (under constant torque), and power for an electric generator. A computer program running appropriate actuators controls the systems and directs the power flow from the different engine + motor sources. This power split achieves the benefits of a continuously variable transmission (CVT), except that the torque/speed conversion uses an electric motor rather than a direct mechanical gear train connection….”
One look at this cut-a-way motor-transmission- two electric motor-generator system makes me think it ain’t ever going to be cheaper or lighter in weight. What are the facts? I.e. How does it compare in weight and price to comparable standard car. Do you need a PhD to service it?
Today, the grid electricity in the US comes from 70% fossil fuels, and 30% Nuclear, Hydro, Biofuels, Wind and Solar (in the UK it's 27%). That's why I put the AND in that statement. And no, I don't think the average person is going to be able to install sufficient Wind or Solar to power the car, that's going to come from the Grid, but in every country the percent of power on the Grid that is not from fossil fuels continues to go up.
Yes, there are tailpipes to these central generation plants, but that's the good news, besides the 27% of non-polluting generaion in the UK, another 39% comes from Natural Gas and when burned at modern central power plants that has virtually no pollution. For the remaining 34% it is far easier to scrub the output of ONE tailpipe than 10,000 ones that are moving around, and YES, it is important where the tailpipe is located. We live mainly in cities and importing the power into the city via the grid is far better than burning all that gas in the inner city.
Arthur
Last edited:
Thanks for link on Pirus. I had no idea it was so complex It seems it has a full weight ICE and complex transmission:
“… The mechanical gearing design of the system allows the mechanical power from the ICE engine to be split three ways: extra torque at the wheels (under constant rotation speed), extra rotation speed at the wheels (under constant torque), and power for an electric generator. A computer program running appropriate actuators controls the systems and directs the power flow from the different engine + motor sources. This power split achieves the benefits of a continuously variable transmission (CVT), except that the torque/speed conversion uses an electric motor rather than a direct mechanical gear train connection….”
One look at this cut-a-way motor-transmission- two electric motor-generator system makes me think it ain’t ever going to be cheaper or lighter in weight. What are the facts? I.e. How does it compare in weight and price to comparable standard car. Do you need a PhD to service it?
Well it is pretty advanced technology and it's been suggested that it is somewhat more expensive to maintain, but I don't have figures to back that up.
I doubt it is much heavier in that the engine tends to be lighter because it has low speed assist for torque needs.
It is more expensive, obviously, but the theory is you get that back over time from gas savings.
It is really targeted to the commuter whose typical commute is short and/or spends a lot of time in stop and go driving, because it is in this area that it is much more efficient than just an ICE. If your typical drive is long distances on the open road, then the Prius isn't going to be a good fit.
The Plug in version of the Hybrid is for the same type of driver, but should get better milage than available in any ICE.
Arthur
Yes and if we had any sense we would bring back the electric bus. (Perhaps with "super flywheel," recharged from "power poles"* at some of the regular stops instead of over head wires.) Stockholm had a simple iron disk flywheel bus more than a decade ago. I don't know if it still does. I suspect some of the Pirus electrical variable speed transmission technology and energy recovery braking could be put to great advantage in exchanging energy with a nearly constant (for a few minutes) speed flywheel and the starting and stopping flywheel bus. Probably the recharge of a "super flywheel" could be done only at the end of the bus route as the driver takes a break. Flywheel can be charged to full energy storage (or discharged) extremely rapidly compare to any battery.**
* They could double as street light posts too.
**When working on the controlled fusion problem I had occasion to visit the "stellarator" machine at Princeton. It needed (as all these machines do) huge power available to quickly build up the very large and strong magnet fields. The solution then (and probably still today) was to take a few hours spinning up a larger flywheel so the local electric grid could deliver the energy being stored and then dump that energy in a few seconds to get the huge power levels needed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes your link said it uses an entirely different type of ICE with longer piston strokes. I think that implies, for the same HP out, you have less force and more distance of travel on each cycle to get same work done. Less force would allow weaker cranks, linking rods, smaller bearings etc.
You link does state that this different class of ICE motors does have poor low speed torque, which one of the motor-generators supplies instead.
BTW, as I have pointed out already "getting your upfront money back from the gas saving" does not really work when you do the economics correctly - I.e. when you recognize that getting $100 back years later is not worth $100 to you today. With current abnormally low interest rates, perhaps you could break even, but they will not last during the 10 years you plan to own the car. However, if gasoline were your only choice, then as the price of that goes up, so will your fuel savings so this all gets very speculative. The price of ETOH fuel is already cheaper than gasoline per mile driven and it will get cheaper while gasoline grows significantly more expensive. The smart thing to do is start switching fuels, not drive motors with big batteries, IMHO.
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting comment.
What does that mean?
It seems that you are beyond arguing that EVs won't catch on, but that they are somehow bad.
Arthur
Add up the energy requirements/environmental impact of supplying an EV to replace every petrol car, and get back to me.
but how can you judge demand for a pilot level production? Say for example I make 20,000 kg of biobutanol and its all bought up ahead of schedule, does that mean there is demand for 40,000, a million, 10 million? How am I to know? Certainly if demand exceed supply so far that means supply can grow, to what is still unknown.
Than why are these legal:
Most of all your still limiting in thought, what about a camper with a generator built in it?
you don't need to work health and safety to know that, simple browsing of youtube for the first time taught me that long ago.
Why tell, when you can watch it! thanks for explaining just a taste of the kinds of risky things people could do with highly flammable liquid fuel, great reasons to go electric!
yeah like it won't do anything, not charge, nothing, great thing with electronics is it can check the connection first before actually moving any significant current, if that were to fail then you got circuit breakers. Chances of fire and death probably far lower than with gasoline!
Oh anything possible, but lets actually do risk assessment, how likely do you think accidents and fatalities will be with a electric charging station with multiple automatic safety mechanism and verse existing gas-stations today where I can with a mere pull of the fueling trigger and a match cause mass destruction! If I tried intentionally cause death or destruction with a public charging station what could I do? If I cut the line it will short through the line, through the cutter, not harm me and trip the circuit breaker. The station will only go hot when it detected a good connection with a electric car, any shorting will shut it off. Even if ran over the station and obliterated it the exposed wires would like be cold because of the circuit breakers in the building the station is connected to!
certainly we would not see these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcQd1qoDAs
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYO4jvnJHw
definitely not this! There will be nothing to catch fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pV4ryM8R-g
Oh so you saying 20% of the time people spend on holidays in the UK is with caravens, motorhomes and so called day vans, and how much of the market can't be rented? Should I even care, when electrics can handle the other 80%?
Unless that extra 5% is for things they could do other ways with. But lets go with it: its 2030, you have an electric EV with 300 mile range and 5 minute electrolyte reloading, whats your worry?
Yeah its so limited they sold nearly 2 million already and has been one of the most highest selling brands Toyota has got. Of course its limited its a car, not a SUV, and its planetary gear transmission makes it inefficient on the long drive verse stop and go, which a serial hybrid like most PHEV designs would not suffer from.
When and if they make EV for such a task you'll find out.
True, a minor problem on a PHEV, but considering the generator weight and all is probably not greater then 200 kg its a livable problem.
And anyone with a lick of sense is NOT discussing replacing EVERY petrol car with an EV.
Why do you think that EXTREME position is the issue?
If this WERE to be done though, I've seen no evidence that this would have negative consequences from either an energy or environmental impact.
But, since the time frame to convert all (or realisticlly most) ICE to EVs is quite long one could easily project a future where nearly all of our Grid electricity is from renewable resources and battery technology is totally recyclable and environmentally safe.
Arthur
Last edited:
Yes, and those numbers are even more impressive when you factor in that it didn't go on worldwide sale until 2001 and didn't reach 1 million cars till May of 2008.
Which means that next million was reached so much faster than the first and unlike the first million, was reached during a sustained period of globally poor car sales.
Arthur
Is your 200 kg the motor generator set? If so what sort of HP is that?
I made a quick search trying to answer that and found:
Biggest available motor generator I could quickly find:
“The GA-9.7HE generates 9.7kW maximum/8.4kW continuous of power and features a 10-gallon (38 liters) fuel tank and an integral lifting bail. Driven by an 18-horsepower, 2-cylinder Honda GX-610 gasoline engine.”
Full specs at: http://www.jobsite-generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html
It weighs only 159kg so with your 200kg and shedding some separate unit weight such as tubular frame, etc. you might get you to nearly 35 HP, I guess.
I don’t think I want to be stuck on an Interstate highway with a 35HP car, unless it is "Kansas flat."
Last edited by a moderator: