Does time exist?

[Write4U]

Ilussion

Time is not an illusion, Time does not exist at all until it emerges along with change.

The first known change (measured from our coordinate) occurred during the BB (t=0}, some 14.7 billion years ago. The age of the universe.

As time flows continuously, we have given arbitrary names to increments of time, using *c* as the upper limit of measurable change.(386,000 m/sec, at which point physical existence is not possible.

 

[Michael 345]

The first known change (measured from our coordinate) occurred during the BB (t=0.

My bold highlight your post

Which change is called AGE not TIME

NOW came into existence at the BIG BANG and it has been NOW ever since

It has never been the past we live in

And we have no ability to live in the future

Past and future do not exist sorry

Don't know why I'm sorry I didn't set up this system

 

[Write4U]

Which change is called AGE not TIME

Time = incremental measurement of duration of process. AGE = full measure of Time from beginning to end.
Is *half-life* a measurement of time, age, or quantity?

 

[Michael 345]

Time = incremental measurement of duration of process. AGE = full measure of Time from beginning to end.
Is *half-life* a measurement of time, age, or quantity?

time
\ˈtīm\
noun

• : the thing that is measured as seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, etc.

Full Definition

• 1 a : the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or condition exists or continues: duration

Ummmm not sure time is a thing

age
\ˈāj\
noun

• : the amount of time during which a person or animal has lived
• : the amount of time during which a thing has existed
• : the time of life when a persondoes something or becomes legallyable to do something

Full Definition

• 1 a : the time of life at which someparticular qualification, power, or capacity arises or rests <the votingage is 18>; specifically : majority
  b : one of the stages of life
  c : the length of an existenceextending from the beginning to any given time <a boy 10 years of age>
  d : lifetime
  e : an advanced stage of life

half–life
\-ˌlīf\
noun

• : the time it takes for a radioactivesubstance to lose half its radioactivity

Full Definition

• 1 : the time required for half of something to undergo a process: as
  a : the time required for half of the atoms of a radioactive substance to become disintegrated
  b : the time required for half the amount of a substance (as a drug, radioactive tracer, or pesticide) in or introduced into a living system or ecosystem to be eliminated or disintegrated by natural processes
• 2 : a period of usefulness or popularity preceding decline or obsolescence <slang usually has a short half–life>

First use: 1907

So sayith Mirriam-Webster

Below sayith me from my book reading about Time but which being print on paper from which I cannot cutith and pasteith I have to typeith

Time

An illusion of movement of passage of change

Age

A arbitrary measurement between arbitrary NOWs expressed under various names to many to list here

Other entities in the Universe have their own arbitrary units of age

All except the Glopglop who don't live long enough to have any age

Half-life

A measurement of AGE during which half of the QUANTITY of the substance becomes inactive or half of the QUANTITY of the substance remains active depending on your outlook on life

So AGE and QUANTITY but not TIME

 

[Write4U]

I understand there is a relationship and what you are saying, but it is not correct to equate time with age.

Quick example of both verbs. Is there a difference between *timing* and *aging*? Counting time is an additive process, age is the sum of the addition.

 

[Write4U]

Deleted for duplication.

 

[Michael 345]

but it is not correct to equate time with age.

I don't

Since I contend TIME does not exist I would be hard put to equate it with anything

Quick example of both verbs. Is there a difference between *timing* and *aging*? Counting time is an additive process, age is the sum of the addition.

Yes

Counting time is the addition of arbitrary units

Adding up years gives your AGE years

Adding up other units would produce AGE in those units

*****

Timing would be

the addition of a suitable arbitrary unit
to count between arbitrary NOWs
to obtain how many arbitrary units
were between the arbitrary NOWs

Probably for comparison to another set

*****

Ageing

is the process (changes occurring) from a arbitrary start NOW to a current NOW stopping at any NOW to fix the AGE

 

[Write4U]

Ageing is the process (changes occurring) from a arbitrary start NOW to a current NOW stopping at any NOW to fix the AGE

Mind, I am not disagreeing, but what happened to the Past? Can we say "the Past-Now"?
I realize there was a NOW, which has since passed and currently is another NOW.

Thus IMO, this is how the NOW becomes the PAST and TIME is the arbitrary measurement of duration between the two states.

 

[Michael 345]

I am not disagreeing, but what happened to the Past

It vanishes

There is no existing past which makes going there impossible

You can refer to the past in the form of
' In 1969 these certain events occurred... '

1969 would have at either side a start NOW and a stop NOW

this is how the NOW becomes the PAST

No

NOW becomes NOTHING

TIME is the arbitrary measurement of duration between the two states.

No

The arbitrary measurement of duration between the two states is AGE

I understand it would be strange to say 1969 is 1 year of AGE

But shift the arbitrary NOW points slightly

Instead of starting at the start of 1969 and finishing at the end of 1969

Move them to the start of one of your Birthday Days to the start of your next Birthday Days

Have you not gained (added) 1 year of AGE?

You have not gained (added) any units of NOW because NOW does not have any units hence TIME does not have any units because it does not exist

 

[Write4U]

Hmmm, you're beginning to lose me on that one.

Have you not gained (added) 1 year of AGE?

Not the way I see it. I will have added a year of TIME . My new AGE depends on my AGE one year in the PAST. But we are now debating semantics.

Since I contend TIME does not exist I would be hard put to equate it with anything

I do agree that TIME does not exist as an independent or causal dimension. My understanding is that TIME emerges as a concurrent side-effect of duration of change.

Chronology (timeline) of the Universe.



The chronology of the universe describes the history and future of the universe according to Big Bang cosmology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe

 

[Michael 345]

Not the way I see it. I will have added a year of TIME . My new AGE depends on my AGE one year in the PAST. But we are now debating semantics.

I worked on this through the day on and off so it might be a bit ragged

But we are now debating semantics

Oh no not the dreaded semantics

But to be serious

We may need to agree to disagree

But I can have another shot with a slight different take on my time like a movie style explanation

By the way it relates to any visual recording medium just film is the easiest medium to visualise

Lay out on a bench a strip of movie film

Looking at each frame you see a sequence of stills

Between the stills is a break

Running the film through the projector the light is cut off when the break is passing between the light and the projector lens (and on to the screen)

Run the film at high speed when making the movie and normal speed when playing back and you get slow motion

Run the film at very slow speed when making the movie and normal speed when playing back you get time lapse or stop motion (have to put time lapse because that is the current definetion - not what I would have put)

There are other effects you can manipulate film to show but not in relation to this post

Now stop the movie so only one frame is shown (as this is a thought bubble forget about the film bursting into flames)

So

projector stopped

single frame being shown

But as you look back at the screen you see the subjects still moving

What is going on?

The subjects moving in the single frame are NOW

Those in the single frame being shown cannot move down to the frames below the lens the past

They also cannot move up to the frames above the lens the future

Check back at the projector
Film not moving
Single frame being shown
Strip of film below the lens is the past but as far as lens is concerned it does not exist
Strip of film above the lens is the future but as far as the lens is concerned it does not exist

But wait there is more

It is in fact a mistake to view TIME as a movie with a succession of still frames

NOW has always been a single frame not needing old frames as past and new frames as future

So now we can consider TIME as a single SLIDE in a slide projector

Now our puzzle is how physics produces a smooth single unbroken NOW full of movement and change (which are somewhat the same)

Anybody???

 

[Michael 345]

Hmmm, you're beginning to lose me on that one.

Sorry I just missed editing my post

My friend was checking it and mentioned I had missed out his take

So here it is

His wife says to do a chore

If he answers I'll do it tomorrow she knows he will never do it

Yes you guessed it

Tomorrow never comes

He says it fits in with it is always NOW

I tend to agree with him and now I have put it in a post he owes me a beer

 

[Asexperia]

Time is the cause of change. We measure time by its effects: changes.

 

[Michael 345]

Time is the cause of change. We measure time by its effects: changes.

I contend it is not TIME which is measured but AGE

 

[Write4U]

Michael 345,

Check back at the projector
Film not moving
Single frame being shown
Strip of film below the lens is the past but as far as lens is concerned it does not exist
Strip of film above the lens is the future but as far as the lens is concerned it does not exist

But wait there is more

It is in fact a mistake to view TIME as a movie with a succession of still frames

NOW has always been a single frame not needing old frames as past and new frames as future

So now we can consider TIME as a single SLIDE in a slide projector

Now our puzzle is how physics produces a smooth single unbroken NOW full of movement and change (which are somewhat the same)

Anybody???

Ok, before I let go,

NOW is a momentary STATE and not a form of measurement in and of itself. Measuring of duration or geometry is done via increments of TIME.

But I really wanted to know if you are familiar with David Bohm's work, I can recommend it. A small example which addresses the existence of the past and future.

the 1960s Bohm began to take a closer look at the notion of order. One day he saw a device on a television program that immediately fired his imagination.

It consisted of two concentric glass cylinders, the space between them being filled with glycerin, a highly viscous fluid. If a droplet of ink is placed in the fluid and the outer cylinder is turned, the droplet is drawn out into a thread that eventually becomes so thin that it disappears from view; the ink particles are enfolded into the glycerin. But if the cylinder is then turned in the opposite direction, the thread-form reappears and rebecomes a droplet; the droplet is unfolded again.

Bohm realized that when the ink was diffused through the glycerin it was not in a state of 'disorder' but possessed a hidden, or nonmanifest, order.

In Bohm's view, all the separate objects, entities, structures, and events in the visible or explicate world around us are relatively autonomous, stable, and temporary 'subtotalities' derived from a deeper, implicate order of unbroken wholeness.

Bohm gives the analogy of a flowing stream:
On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices, ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent existence as such. Rather, they are abstracted from the flowing movement, arising and vanishing in the total process of the flow. Such transitory subsistence as may be possessed by these abstracted forms implies only a relative independence or autonomy of behaviour, rather than absolutely independent existence as ultimate substances. [2]

We must learn to view everything as part of 'Undivided Wholeness in Flowing Movement' [3].

http://www.davidpratt.info/bohm.htm

 

[Michael 345]

But I really wanted to know if you are familiar with David Bohm's work, I can recommend it. A small example which addresses the existence of the past and future.

No but I read your link and now know something

So I guess it is agree to disagree

Much but not all of my musings come from a book titled The Invention of Time and Space by Patrice F Dassonville

I have the electronic version

Heavy reading for me and I estimate I only understood about 10%

I am looking for another book, a real one, I have had for years and while I am sure I didn't sell it during a clean up time I can't find it

Want to reread and see if it puts new thoughts into my 2 neurones

Cheers

 

[Asexperia]

Time passes the same throughout the universe.
The clock is its standard measure.

 

[wellwisher]

Time passes the same throughout the universe.
The clock is its standard measure.

Time does not repeat or cycle, like a clock. A clock does not accurately express time, since a clock will cycle, while time will not. As a home experiment, look yourself at 12 noon today and then the next day at 12 noon. One can photograph each occurrence or you and the clock, as the clock cycles between two identical states on the clock. You will not be the same, as you move forward in time. You will be different. This is a source of confusion about time. A clock does not parallel the way time flows.

As an analogy, say I told you to order all these shells by size. You decide to use a scale. You would be using the wrong tool; scale instead of ruler, to order by size, thereby ending up with a sequence that may be wrong for size, but will be right based on the wrong tool; weight. This creates confusion.

A better clock, to reflect the flow of time, would be the dead fish clock. This is where we use a dead fish to measure time. The flow and measure of time will be connected to the ever increasing level of stink from the rotting fish. Like the flow of time, the stink continue to change state, as time moves forward. You cannot un-stink the fish clock, therefore it does not cycle. The fish clock is less practical, but its closer to how time propagates, which is not via a cycle, wave that repeats. Clocks are more practical, but practical does not reflect the reality of time.

The flow of time is closer to the concept of entropy, than it is to energy. The decaying fish undergoes entropy changes, which can be different for the next fish. Energy cycles via waves, but entropy reflects increasing complexity. The fish clock is more like a 3-D spiral, where time moves the z-axis. The current methods to measure time, look at this spiral below from above, and appear to see a circle in 2-D, without the z-axis of entropy.

 

[Asexperia]

The clock just divides the duration of the day
Into hours, minutes and seconds.

 

[Michael 345]

Time does not repeat or cycle, like a clock.

Incorrect

TIME does not exist and a clock can never repeats or cycle

A clock does not accurately express time, since a clock will cycle, while time will not.

A clock may accurately express AGE in whatever arbitrary units you choose to use provided you have calibrated it against another clock and both clocks agree.

But since the units are arbitrary you can only agree the two clocks measurement of AGE are equal

A third clock in disagreement with the accurate two would indicate a different AGE

As a home experiment, look yourself at 12 noon today and then the next day at 12 noon

Both you and clock would have AGED 24 hours

clock cycles between two identical states on the clock.

There can never be two identical states on the clock

The clock would have undergone some sort of entropy even if only on a microscopic scale (AGED)

You will not be the same, as you move forward in time.

Nor will the clock be the same

You have both AGED

TIME does not exist hence you cannot move in TIME or follow any sort of direction

You will be different

So will the clock

As an analogy, say I told you to order all these shells by size. You decide to use a scale. You would be using the wrong tool; scale instead of ruler, to order by size, thereby ending up with a sequence that may be wrong for size, but will be right based on the wrong tool; weight. This creates confusion.

Sorry I don't see any analogy

The flow and measure of time will be connected to the ever increasing level of stink from the rotting fish. Like the flow of time, the stink continue to change state, as time moves forward.

TIME does not flow as it does not exist

Only NOW exist

...measure of AGE will be connected to the ever increasing level of stink...

the stink continue to change state

AGE

time moves forward

No TIME

NO move

NO direction