Does time exist?

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James R said:
What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
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Sorry, not very much I'm afraid. I was responding to Asexperia's post. I think it began with the concept that time is a product of memory. Please note that I mentioned a departure from the OP in my post #2224.

My understanding is that even single celled organisms like the slime mold have a (cellular?) "memory" of time and regular intervals. This has been proven.

This is the pseudoscience subforum and I believe that is usually given some leeway from scientific rigor?

Can you offer a better analysis of Time and if it has been proven to exist as an independent potential or dimension?
I'm ready to learn.
 
I think I more or less gave up on this thread quite a long time ago. Amazing that we're now at 2250 posts when quite obviously the answer to the thread question is a simple "Yes" and we're done. There must be a lot of off-topic discussion.

Our best theory of time right now is the general theory of relativity. GR tells us that time and space are inextricably intertwined, so for those who don't believe in time you have to ask: what happens to space as a result of this non-existence of time?
 
James R said:
I think I more or less gave up on this thread quite a long time ago. Amazing that we're now at 2250 posts when quite obviously the answer to the thread question is a simple "Yes" and we're done. There must be a lot of off-topic discussion.

Our best theory of time right now is the general theory of relativity. GR tells us that time and space are inextricably intertwined, so for those who don't believe in time you have to ask: what happens to space as a result of this non-existence of time?
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Thats the thing James R ; how people think of time matters . Some people think that time has a real physical physical influence on the begining of this Universe , it doesn't , its mathematical fantasy .

Nothing to your last statement .

Because time is a consequence if movement or duration . Both movement and duration can still exist without time , or any measurement been done , At all . The Universe is independent of any measurement . Measurement , the ability to measure anything is because fundamentally the Quasars , Galaxies , stars , planets , moons etc , are the non-living part of our Universe . The fundametal make up of our Universe is based on Physical Things .

Time exists to order our lives ; time zones

Time has absoluetley nothing to with the existence of Universe , whatsoever .
 
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James R said:
GR tells us that time and space are inextricably intertwined, so for those who don't believe in time you have to ask: what happens to space as a result of this non-existence of time?
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I don't think anyone disputes that time (duration) exists for that which exists. Time for the existence of space exists , "spacetime".
I understood the question to be "does time exist in and of itself"? i.e. "is there timetime", a dimension of time which is independent of all other existence? And then the question becomes considerably more complicated, IMO.

I do not believe there is timetime. I believe that time only emerges as a result of the existence of something else.
Can that be proven wrong? I doubt it. There is no possible way to measure time itself, unless it is attached to something else. I believe time is a metaphysical concept and part of the abstract mathematics of space.

Mathematics do not exist for that which does not exist. Time does not exist for that which does not exist. I believe that is a logical position.
 
Write4U said:
I don't think anyone disputes that time (duration) exists for that which exists. Time for the existence of space exists , "spacetime".
I understood the question to be "does time exist in and of itself"? i.e. "is there timetime", a dimension of time which is independent of all other existence? And then the question becomes considerably more complicated, IMO.

I do not believe there is timetime. I believe that time only emerges as a result of the existence of something else.
Can that be proven wrong? I doubt it. There is no possible way to measure time itself, unless it is attached to something else.
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Why did you put time before duration ? Why is duration in brackets ?
 
Write4U said:
I don't think anyone disputes that time (duration) exists for that which exists. Time for the existence of space exists , "spacetime".
I understood the question to be "does time exist in and of itself"? i.e. "is there timetime", a dimension of time which is independent of all other existence? And then the question becomes considerably more complicated, IMO.
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Why ask such a question? The universe is all we can observe, and we create models based on that, not on 'what ifs' that - as you say - can't be falsified.

Asking if time exists independently of spacetime is as meaningful as asking if red is a dimension.

Write4U said:
Mathematics do not exist for that which does not exist.
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There are whole branches of mathematics for things that don't exist.

Imaginary numbers, multidimensional math, etc. The list goes on.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Why ask such a question? The universe is all we can observe, and we create models based on that, not on 'what ifs' that - as you say - can't be falsified.
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I agree.
Asking if time exists independently of spacetime is as meaningful as asking if red is a dimension.
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I agree. Yet red exists as a product of something that is red, but nowhere else. It is more like asking if Color is a separate dimension.
There are whole branches of mathematics for things that don't exist.
Imaginary numbers, multidimensional math, etc. The list goes on.
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Exactly, we do not assign separate dimensions to those abstract mathematics.
I merely posit that time is an emergent mathematical function of "duration of existence or change of something specific" and does not exist indendent as a dimension in and of itself.

If the OP asked "Does red exist" ? Would your answer be; "yes", it is a mathematical property of that which is falls in the red wavelength frequency of the color spectrum, no?
The OP asks "Does time exist". The answer is; "yes", it is a mathematical property of that which has existence or duration, no?

Else how can we even use a term like "timeless"? Is that a meaningless term?
 
Write4U said:
I agree. Yet red exists as a product of something that is red, but nowhere else. It is more like asking if Color is a separate dimension.
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The colour red exists only in our minds.


Write4U said:
I merely posit that time is an emergent mathematical function of "duration of existence or change of something specific" and does not exist indendent as a dimension in and of itself.
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We've been over this.
You're merely equivocating.
In order for things to have a 'duration' they need a time dimension to have it in. Just like in order for things to have a length, they need to have a spatial dimension to have it in.

Two specific objects at rest with respect to each other travel through the dimension of time as the same rate. So their time is not specific to the object itself.

And in case you think they are not both full-fledged dimensions - we can trade one for the other. We can trade time for distance as easily as we can trade x extent for y extent.

Write4U said:
Else how can we even use a term like "timeless"? Is that a meaningless term?
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Human terms do not compel things into - or out of - existence.
 
DaveC426913 said:
The colour red exists only in our minds.
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That is a different discussion. Seems to me there is an EM spectrum . How about infra-red?

But if that is true, then why should time not be a product of our memory? Is time not a property of wavelength and frequency? Is there a non-trivial difference? If time exists and is a property of frequency of color wavelengths, then red should exist, no? If not, why time?
 
river said:
Duration is the function of what , exactly
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It is an emergent temporal measurement of change. just as it is an emergent temporal measurement of existence of space.
Spacetime began @ t=0 There was no time before space. By that logic Time for all change emerges at its beginning.

Today is the beginning of the rest of your lifetime. You see the relationship?
 
river said: ↑
Duration is the function of what , exactly
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Write4U said:
It is an emergent temporal measurement of change. just as it is an emergent temporal measurement of existence of space.
Spacetime began @ t=0 There was no time before space. By that logic Time for all change emerges at its beginning.

Today is the beginning of the rest of your lifetime. You see the relationship?
Click to expand...

To the highlighted

Duration is not a measurement .
 
DaveC426913 said:
You're not thinking these things through before uttering them. Time ticked along very nicely for 10 billion years before our memory came along...
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Time for what?

You object to my position that Mathematics existed since the beginning of space. Your position is that Mathematics are a human invention to describe emergent spatial interactions of physical events.

But now your position is that Time existed since the beginning of space, before humans invented the term Time to describe the emergent temporal duration of events?

My position is consistent, your position seems arbitrary.
 
Write4U said:
Time for what?

You object to my position that Mathematics existed since the beginning of space. Your position is that Mathematics are a human invention to describe emergent spatial interactions of physical events.

But now your position is that Time existed since the beginning of space, before humans invented the term Time to describe the emergent temporal duration of events?

My position is consistent, your position seems arbitrary.
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It's not "my" position; it's the rest of the world's position. Your position is your personal idea, yet to be supported.
 
DaveC426913 said:
It's not "my" position; it's the rest of the world's position. Your position is your personal idea, yet to be supported.
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My position is no different from mainstream science.
No one has advanced the idea that there is "timetime". There is "spacetime" and individual "time-lines"
There are plenty of mainstream examples of ''spacetime-geometry" and individual "metric-dimensions"

geometry
NOUN
  • 1The branch of mathematics concerned with the properties and relations of points, lines, surfaces, solids, and higher dimensional analogs.

    More example sentences
    • ‘By spherical geometry, we mean geometry on the surface of a sphere, where the great circles are taken as lines.’
    • ‘As analysis began to mix inextricably with geometry and the other branches of mathematics, the curiosities multiplied.’
    • ‘A notable feature of advanced mathematics is that much of it is concerned with geometry in more than three dimensions.’
    • ‘Most of the features for surfaces appearing in this book are closely related to topological geometry.’
    • ‘Mill only deals with geometry, arithmetic, and some algebra, not the branches of higher mathematics.’
    • ‘He was always full of mathematical ideas, not only on game theory, but in geometry and topology as well.’
    • ‘He worked on the borderline between geometry and set theory, both of which are kind of nineteenth century.’
    • ‘It was a revolutionary move away from the Greek concept of mathematics which was essentially geometry.’
    • ‘Let us first comment on the three volume work, which was the biggest treatise ever to be written on line geometry.’
    • ‘Simson also made many discoveries of his own in geometry and the Simson line is named after him.’
    • ‘He goes on to consider solid geometry giving results on prisms, cylinders, and spheres.’
    • ‘You can still access the underlying curve and surface geometry that makes up the solid.’
    • ‘Speculative geometry contains elementary geometry which is not all based on Euclid.’
    • ‘Low-income students who took algebra and geometry were almost three times as likely to attend college as those who did not.’
    • ‘At this point the Greeks gave up algebra and turned to geometry.’
    • ‘He clearly was trying to argue against the notions current at the time on using algebra to study geometry.’
    • ‘Galileo's idea was to overcome this subjectivity and relativity by applying pure geometry and the mathematics of the pure form of space-time to nature.’
    • ‘This requires at least some understanding of spherical geometry and trigonometry.’
    • ‘The computer programs implement basic mathematical principles such as basic geometry and fractional math.’
    • ‘His writings on geometry included several important papers on parallel curves and surfaces.’
    1. 1.1A particular system of geometry.

      ‘non-Euclidean geometries’
      More example sentences
      • ‘He also realised that there were an infinite number of non-euclidean geometries and this, Taurinus claimed, was highly significant.’
      • ‘The trend toward trophic specialization is also correlated with stereotyped geometries in the locomotor system.’
      • ‘The same issues apply more generally to other photonic crystal systems in non-fiber geometries.’
      • ‘Similar stratal geometries have been described from comparable levels in the Chalk of the North Sea, and in outcrop in Britain and France.’
      • ‘He also studied birational contact transformations and non-euclidean and non-archimedean geometries.’
      • ‘It was not until the 19th century that this postulate was dropped and non-euclidean geometries were studied.’
      • ‘His interests in research relate to finite geometries and the group theory related to them, to Cremona transformations related to the Galois theory of equations.’
      • ‘His work on non-euclidean geometries was used by Einstein in his general theory of relativity.’
      • ‘Geometry had began to lose its 'metric' character with projective and non-euclidean geometries being studied.’
      • ‘Weil's work on bringing together number theory and algebraic geometry was highly fruitful.’
      • ‘He had a distinguished career as a math professor, specializing in algebra, algebraic geometry and number theory.’
      • ‘His main mathematical interests were in algebraic geometry and differential geometry.’
      • ‘His derivation of the estimates is a tour de force and the applications in algebraic geometry are beautiful.’
      • ‘This work led to a thesis on algebraic geometry in which he introduced rings which are now named after him.’
      • ‘The apparatus of algebraic geometry is built upon polars, and these upon distances.’
      • ‘Under Lane she studied projective differential geometry and submitted her dissertation on Singularities of Space Curves.’
      • ‘Note, of course, that the use of such positional grids are an early form of Cartesian geometry.’
      • ‘Something that exists nowhere and exists along the lines of Euclidean geometry, judging by what I understand of it, cannot exist.’
      • ‘Van Schooten was one of the main people to promote the spread of Cartesian geometry.’
      • ‘He has written on stochastic geometry and its applications, and the statistical theory of shape.’
    2. 1.2in singular The shape and relative arrangement of the parts of something.
 
continued:
    1. ‘the geometry of spiders' webs’
    2. More example sentences
      • ‘Perhaps this intimate knowledge of the geometry of letterforms is why even today so many architects are partial to Futura.’
      • ‘Modern artists long ago discovered and assimilated the geometry, line and shapes of African sculpture.’
      • ‘At the same time, anatomical data that include the torso geometry and the shape and location of the heart are obtained via a CT scan.’
      • ‘It connects us to the geometry of the body - the square, the circle and the triangle - and to the purity of line.’
      • ‘I can't help it: where some see visionary lines and inspired angles I see the geometry of a madman.’
      • ‘In the first place, chemical solutions can conform to the geometry of the sample vessel or object being irradiated.’
      • ‘The geometry or shape of individual grains appears to be a property inherited from the original crystals of the silicate minerals in the source rock.’
      • ‘This is used in ophthalmic surgery to maintain the geometry of the eye, and can also be used for therapeutic treatments involving osteoarthritis and wound healing.’
      • ‘‘I was fascinated by the geometry of the ruined monuments I looked at,’ Ghosh explains.’
      • ‘The main living area is open plan and bathed in light from the tall windows, and the geometry of this window formation is echoed within the structure of the space.’
      • ‘I read it in my early twenties and thought, I will never, so long as I live, know as much about the geometry of the human heart.’
      • ‘I eyed up the chest of drawers but the geometry seemed wrong somehow.’
      • ‘In fact, the cornerstone setting lets you tweak the geometry of the picture to your heart's content.’
      • ‘Once again, daguerreotypy was reduced to a geometry of abstract markings.’
      • ‘Finally, we indicate the source of such inconsistent analysis, namely, an effect due to the geometry of tumors, and how to fix it.’
      • ‘The overburden can be divided into three packages based on the geometry of the seismic reflections.’
      • ‘This long-term effective population size is affected by the local dispersal behavior as well as the geometry of the habitat.’
      • ‘His buildings are radical, from the geometry of their floor plans to the perforated walls that filter light into the interiors.’
      • ‘In Eagle Creek, Columbia River, the different geometries of man and nature continually make rhymes with one another.’
      • ‘We use facing directions to highlight the profoundly different structural geometries that exist on various scales in different parts of the coastal section.’
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/geometry

But curiously:

space-time
NOUN
mass noun Physics
  • The concepts of time and three-dimensional space regarded as fused in a four-dimensional continuum.

    ‘the curvature of space-time’
    as modifier ‘the space-time continuum’
https://www.lexico.com/definition/space-time

That is all the information available on space-time?
No mention at all of the Mathematical nature of spacetime geometrics?

Ah,from Wiki;
In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. Spacetime diagrams can be used to visualize relativistic effects, such as why different observers perceive where and when events occur differently.

Many counterintuitive consequences emerge: in addition to being independent of the motion of the light source, the speed of light has the same speed regardless of the frame of reference in which it is measured; the distances and even temporal ordering of pairs of events change when measured in different inertial frames of reference (this is the relativity of simultaneity); and the linear additivity of velocities no longer holds true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
 
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