Does time exist?

[Write4U]

OK, so no only has this forum been taken over by science illiterates, but it seems now it's being consumed by arithmetic ignoramuses.

LOL, consumed even. Where is your sense of humor....
What is an ignoramus/0? Undefined ?

On a more serious note. Is this not a an example of a man made symbolic paradox? In mathematical reality the function of adding, subtracting, multiplication or division by zero does not exist at all, does it? It is a human symbolic mathematical invention. The same as in reality there are no negative quantities. Any negative quantity in nature is equal t0 zero

Zero does not exist in the same way as our concept of an "object as an entity" exists. Zero does not exist as an object. We can of course perceive zero by the absence of a particular object. For example, if I have a basket containing only 8 apples and remove 8 apples I will have zero apples. But I will also have zero pears or zero atoms.

https://www.quora.com/Does-zero-really-exist-Is-it-an-essential-part-of-our-number-system

Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience. In reality zero merely means "absence of a value", a mathematical void.

Zero time is a meaningless term, it cannot be associated with zero space. no?

 

[river]

Zero does not exist in the same way as our concept of an "object as an entity" exists. Zero does not exist as an object. We can of course perceive zero by the absence of a particular object. For example, if I have a basket containing only 8 apples and remove 8 apples I will have zero apples. But I will also have zero pears or zero atoms.

To your last statement ;

Disagree

Pears and atoms still exist , just not in this example . Outside of this example both pears and atoms still exist .

https://www.quora.com/Does-zero-really-exist-Is-it-an-essential-part-of-our-number-system

Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience. In reality zero merely means "absence of a value", a mathematical void.

Zero time is a meaningless , it cannot be associated with zero space. no?

To the highlighted ; Absolutely True . And further the absence of physical object . Which will never happen and can not happen .

Zero time is meaningless , since Movement , the Essence of time , is based on physical objects and the energy given off ; such as the Sun's output of Energy and Light spectrum . Which goes on throughout our Galaxy , ( Milkyway ) and All other Galaxies .

There is no such thing in reality of " zero space " , it can never exist . Because without space no physical could exist in either the micro nor macro .

 

[Write4U]

Pears and atoms still exist , just not in this example . Outside of this example both pears and atoms still exist .

You are changing the parameters (moving the goal posts).
The example cites a basket filled with apples. If you remove the apples and not eat them they will also exist outside of the basket. But that is not the frame of reference.
Inside the basket are zero apples, zero pears, zero (fruit) atoms, zero Trump towers. The basket is "empty" of any objects (mathematically definable values).

 

[river]

You are changing the parameters (moving the goal posts).
The example cites a basket filled with apples. If you remove the apples and not eat them they will also exist outside of the basket. But that is not the frame of reference.
Inside the basket are zero apples, zero pears, zero (fruit) atoms, zero Trump towers. The basket is "empty" of any objects (mathematically definable values).

Mathematically Definable only .

In reality pointless thinking .

 

[DaveC426913]

In mathematical reality the function of adding, subtracting, multiplication or division by zero does not exist at all, does it? It is a human symbolic mathematical invention.
..
Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience. In reality zero merely means "absence of a value", a mathematical void.

Correct. You finally got it.

Zero, one, ten or a billion do not exist in nature. Mathematics does not exist in nature. It is something we invented and apply to nature.

The same as in reality there are no negative quantities. Any negative quantity in nature is equal t0 zero

In nature, there are no positive numbers either, except those we apply.

A tide might go between +6 feet and -6 feet of sea level.
The numbers don't exist in nature, but we can certainly apply numbers to nature.

 

[Write4U]

Correct. You finally got it.

Zero, one, ten or a billion do not exist in nature. Mathematics does not exist in nature. It is something we invented and apply to nature.

Ask a cosmologist and see if they agree with you that mathematics don't exist in Nature. They are just not human symbolic mathematics for naturalloccurring relative values and mathematical functions.

In nature, there are no positive numbers either, except those we apply.

Right, human mathematics are symbolic representations of naturally occurring values and functions and patterns .

A tide might go between +6 feet and -6 feet of sea level.
The numbers don't exist in nature, but we can certainly apply numbers to nature.

Which proves that natural values and functions are not mathematical in essence....

Orbiting planets do not follow deterministic trajectories in accordance to natural (mathematical) gravitational laws and constants?

 

[river]

Ask a cosmologist and see if they agree with you that mathematics don't exist in Nature. They are just not human symbolic mathematics for naturalloccurring relative values and mathematical functions.
Right, human mathematics are symbolic representations of naturally occurring values and functions and patterns .
Which proves that natural values and functions are not mathematical in essence?

Orbiting planets do not follow deterministic trajectories in accordance to natural (mathematical) gravitational laws and constants?

Anything that " really physically exists " is going to have inherently mathematically measurements . Of shape , Geometry and all forms of energy ( movement(s) ) .

 

[river]

Therefore the existence of any mathematics , is based on the periodic table .

 

[Write4U]

Anything that " really physically exists " is going to have inherently mathematically measurements . Of shape , Geometry and all forms of energy ( movement(s) ) .

Which determine how these physical objects interact and change.
Human mathematics are only the symbolic representations of prevailing natural relative values and mathematical functions, the mathematical essence of spacetime.

Therefore the existence of any mathematics , is based on the periodic table .

Actually it's the other way around.
The table of elements consists of self-organized mathematical atomic patterns, each atomic pattern with its own relative value and mathematical potential to do work.

The only credit humans can take is recognizing the mathematical nature of spacetime and our extraordinary ability to symbolically represent the mathematical concepts inherent in the spacetime fabric.

But all physical objects, including biological organisms obey the inherent mathematical values and functions on which universal dynamics are based. All universal evolutionary processes are mathematical functions. That's why we can symbolize them and use them for our own puposes.

 

[river]

↑

Anything that " really physically exists " is going to have inherently mathematically measurements . Of shape , Geometry and all forms of energy ( movement(s) ) .

Which determine how these physical objects interact and change.

Disagree

Mathematics is the consequence of real physical existence .

In a space devoid of any physical thing there is No Thing and No Life .

 

[DaveC426913]

Orbiting planets do not follow deterministic trajectories in accordance to natural (mathematical) gravitational laws and constants?

No. They followed those orbits billions of years before mathematics came along. To-wit:

The function of adding, subtracting, multiplication or division ... is a human symbolic mathematical invention.
Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience.

 

[river]

Write4U said: ↑
Orbiting planets do not follow deterministic trajectories in accordance to natural (mathematical) gravitational laws and constants?

No. They followed those orbits billions of years before mathematics came along. To-wit:

The function of adding, subtracting, multiplication or division ... is a human symbolic mathematical invention.
Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience.

Brilliant

 

[Write4U]

No. They followed those orbits billions of years before mathematics came along.

Yes, before man invented a mathematical language, the planets just tumbled aimlessly through spacetime, not following any recurring patterns based on the gravitational values and functions. Just nameless random dynamical actions.

To-wit: The function of adding, subtracting, multiplication or division ... is a human symbolic mathematical invention. Zero is a meaningless expression in Nature. Zero is a human made theoretical symbolic convenience.

Key phrase: "human symbolic mathematical inventions representing natural relative values and mathematical functions."
Yep, zero is a purely human theoretical mathematical concept, invented for our convenience in performing calculus of universal values and functions.

The Fibonacci sequence was a mathematical evolutionary self-organizing pattern long before Fibonacci or any other human being was even a probability and symbolized it with human mathematics. 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55...was used by leafy plants millions of years before the dinosaurs roamed the earth. It's an efficient mathematical growth pattern for photosynthesis.

Universal mathematics are not based on human mathematics, human symbolic mathematical representations are based on universal mathematical values and functions. All human physics are symbolic representations of natural phenomena. We are not god and the human "word" was not the "beginning". We are newcomers on the block. The universe did not change one iota because humans emerged from the evolutionary mathematical functions of physical values.

You are only talking semantic differences between natural phenomena and human symbolic representation of those phenomena. But our cognition of mathematical patterns always comes from observation of natural values and functions, always. Nature doesn't give a hoot about humans.

 

[river]

The Fibonacci sequence was a mathematical evolutionary self-organizing pattern long before Fibonacci or any other human being was even a probability and symbolized it with human mathematics. 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55...was used by leafy plants millions of years before the dinosaurs roamed the earth. It's an efficient mathematical growth pattern for photosynthesis.

Disagree , to your last statement ; ( highlighted )

Its an efficient form of energy by Life upon material things .

 

[Write4U]

Disagree , to your last statement ; ( highlighted )
Its an efficient form of energy by Life upon material things .

I also disagree with that statement, being I did not make that statement! Where did you get that word salad from?
My statement was;"It's an efficient mathematical growth pattern for photosynthesis."

 

[river]

New
↑
Disagree , to your last statement ; ( highlighted )
Its an efficient form of energy by Life upon material things .

I also disagree with that statement, being I did not make that statement! Where did you get that word salad from?
My statement was;"It's an efficient mathematical growth pattern for photosynthesis."

To your last statement ( highlighted )

Its the efficient using of Sun Energy by a real physical living being , expressed mathematically , is the real essence of the mathematical pattern found in photosynthesis .

 

[river]

From My post # 2307

Anything that " really physically exists " is going to have inherently mathematically measurements . Of shape , Geometry and all forms of energy ( movement(s) ) . And matter .

 

[Write4U]

From My post # 2307

Anything that " really physically exists " is going to have inherently mathematically measurements . Of shape , Geometry and all forms of energy ( movement(s) ) . And matter .

Seems we agree then....good.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, before man invented a mathematical language, the planets just tumbled aimlessly through spacetime, not following any recurring patterns based on the gravitational values and functions. Just nameless random dynamical actions. Key phrase: "human symbolic mathematical inventions representing natural relative values and mathematical functions."
Yep, zero is a purely human theoretical mathematical concept, invented for our convenience in performing calculus of universal values and functions.

Values are a human invention. So are functions.
Physical forces determined what the planets did.

I'm not going to keep engaging with you on this. You treat every interaction as just another opportunity to spam the thread with your agenda.

You're wrong.

 

[Write4U]

is the real essence of the mathematical pattern found in photosynthesis .

It's the natural mathematical "growth pattern" of many plants and trees. Natural selection selected for that efficient configuration giving those plants a survival advantage.