Asexperia
Registered Senior Member
Abstraction is a mental process, but if we do it based on reality it's objective. Time measurements are objective abstractions too.
Does time exist?
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Abstraction is a mental process, but if we do it based on reality it's objective. Time measurements are objective abstractions too.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Not really. Our brains are not capable of objective observation. All that our brains can do is make "best guesses" as compared to the information stored in our memory.
A stop-watch is relatively objective, but only in recording the mathematics of past durations (mathematical memories)
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Asexperia
Registered Senior Member
Objective is not only what is outside the mind, but everything that is based on the truth. For example: 3x2=6. This operation is composed for conventional symbols, but the relation is objective.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
I was addressing the brain function. The brain is unable to distuingish objective truth. It has no direct observation of anything outside of the sensory receptors and it receives its information not from direct obseravtion but from electro/chemical bits from which it must construct a composite pattern.
As this is not pertinent to the OP I have copied your post and my response to "Biology and Genetics" (Eye Brain), where we can continue this subject if there is interest.
Of course an artificial "observer" like a camera is an objective observer. The image passes through the lens directly on the photographic plate, which in humans is the back of the eye and consists of arrays of ganglian cells each sensitive to seperate wave lengths. After seperating the image all this encoded information is fed into brain via the optic nerve, which now has to reassemble these millions of bits and then compare it to its memory of what it is actually assembling.
https://webvision.med.utah.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/sagschem.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...hiasmal-afferent-visual-system_fig1_267738457
While it can distinguish between relative values and can mathematically process these values, the brain never does exactly "know" what it is processing. This gives an advantage in some ways because it is not a rigidly fixed process but sensitive to new information which allows it to modify its "recognition from memory" into a new paradigm.
p.s. note the presence of MT processors in the Myelinated Axons of the Optic Nerve.....
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I was addressing the brain function. The brain is unable to distuingish objective truth. It has no direct observation of anything outside of the sensory receptors and it receives its information not from direct obseravtion but from electro/chemical bits from which it must construct a composite pattern.
As this is not pertinent to the OP I have copied your post and my response to "Biology and Genetics" (Eye Brain), where we can continue this subject if there is interest.
Of course an artificial "observer" like a camera is an objective observer. The image passes through the lens directly on the photographic plate, which in humans is the back of the eye and consists of arrays of ganglian cells each sensitive to seperate wave lengths. After seperating the image all this encoded information is fed into brain via the optic nerve, which now has to reassemble these millions of bits and then compare it to its memory of what it is actually assembling.
https://webvision.med.utah.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/sagschem.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...hiasmal-afferent-visual-system_fig1_267738457
While it can distinguish between relative values and can mathematically process these values, the brain never does exactly "know" what it is processing. This gives an advantage in some ways because it is not a rigidly fixed process but sensitive to new information which allows it to modify its "recognition from memory" into a new paradigm.
p.s. note the presence of MT processors in the Myelinated Axons of the Optic Nerve.....
Agreed ( high lighted )
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Anil Seth nailed it down with "the brain makes a best guess" of the electro-chemical information it is processing.
It has no direct sensory experience at all, but like a digital computer, translates incoming info and compares it to its expectation from memory.
As Seth says "you see what you believe you see and only when everybody agrees on what they believe they see, we call that reality".
Disagree , to your last statement .
They agree about reality because reality is real . And reality has some fundamentals , air , water , rock , heat , and life . Not because we agree , but because reality is .
We are partly from the inorganic chemistry of elements and from organic chemistry . Think of what the body needs in which to become . Any living form really .
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Your brain doesn't know what reality is. It can only make a best guess. It has no direct experience of reality.
Remember Descartes' Brain in a Vat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat
One of the most misunderstood facts about the brain is that it is a brain in a vat in reality. Inside the skull there is only darkness and silence and the brain itself is completely isolated from the exterior world. It only knows or believes what it is taught to believe is reality from sensory input as electro/chemical information as compared to stored memory of prior experience . It can confirm a lot of stuff by for instance touch, as many blind people can "scan" your face by touch. The internal image it constructs can be very close to sighted people. This is how painters can paint landscapes from memory and musicians can play music from memory.
You can even make your brain believe a fake hand is your hand, by having the brain focus on the fake hand and associate it with experiencing touch. This may seem weird, but it is true.
There is nothing wrong with your brain, but if it is fed incorrect information it will accept that as truth. This is also how people can be brainwashed into believing false information.
You must see the Anil Seth clip to fully understand the relationship your brain has with your sensory experiences.
It is very enlightening and allows you to understand how and why people can look at something and come to very different recognition of details. Their brains make individually different guesses of what it is their senses are telling it.
I'll post it one more time. Promise you'll take 17:00 minutes of your life to learn something very profound about your own brain and how your conscious life unfolds. Trust me, you'll be entertained and informed.
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Well, there you go. You know what you are saying , inside your mind. But I haven't got a clue as to what you are expressing with these random words.
You give me nothing to allow me to make a best guess as to what you are saying.....
Did you watch the lecture by the expert, or have you decided to ignore the science ?
You give me nothing to allow me to make a best guess as to what you are saying.....
Did you watch the lecture by the expert, or have you decided to ignore the science ?
Yes:
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We tend to look at the Brain in the present form . The latest info. , on the Brain itself , coming to conclusions ....
The here is the problem with this thinking ; we have forgotten the evolution of the Brain .
When you dwell upon the Evolution of the Brain , then the physical experiences , at the smallest form of life , ....matters ..... ; Which eventually formed Us , is a real experience .
Consciousness is evolutionary ; it learns , from physical experiences .
The here is the problem with this thinking ; we have forgotten the evolution of the Brain .
When you dwell upon the Evolution of the Brain , then the physical experiences , at the smallest form of life , ....matters ..... ; Which eventually formed Us , is a real experience .
Consciousness is evolutionary ; it learns , from physical experiences .
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Asexperia
Registered Senior Member
Senses are an extension of the brain. Senses capture reality and the brain compares sensations.
subjective idealism.
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Asexperia
Registered Senior Member
I agree.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
That is only partly correct, and sensory ability is not restricted to brained organisms and already is present in single celled organisms, like bacteria.
Unconscious sensory stimulation begins with chemical reactions and has evolved into complex sensory adaptations. Bacteria can "communicate" via "quorum sensing" . This is a scientific term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
No, subjective realism.
Tell me if a color blind person has an objective view of an idealized reality.
The brain is an isolated organ and can only make "best guesses" based on sensory perception and memorized prior experiences. This is tantamount to experiencing "controlled hallucinations", which are by no means absolutely reliable. In fact, sensory perception can vary greatly between individuals and entire species. The brain does not see or hear anything that it is not trained to respond to by evolutionary selection.
It's an organic computer which processes electro-chemicals signals from the sensory neural network and is wholly dependent on the experiential program of a lifetime of learning.
Have you watched Anil Seth? He is the expert and demonstrates the flexibility in perceptive and cognitive abilities of the brain. If you don't watch that lecture, you are missing vital information on which to base your informed "best guesses" of sensory processing.....
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Asexperia
Registered Senior Member
CLOCKS ARE ACTIVE EXTERNAL MEMORIES (MEXA)
Time is a physical magnitude that affects all of reality, but we do not have a sense to perceive intervals.
Before, I thought chromnesia was the sense of time, but people have different concepts, for example, what an hour is. Even the same person may have different ideas about a certain period of time depending on their mood.
The continuous rhythm and internal precision of clocks have led me to consider these devices as Active External Memories (MEXA by its initials in Spanish) of time measurement. Clocks always remind us of elapsed time and the time of day. Clocks are characterized by having MEXA.
The types of clocks are:
1- Timers: in washing machines, microwaves and hourglasses.
2- Chronometers: in sports and science.
3- Synchronized with the day: the time.
Remembering a year, for example 1980, is a mental process.
Time is a physical magnitude that affects all of reality, but we do not have a sense to perceive intervals.
Before, I thought chromnesia was the sense of time, but people have different concepts, for example, what an hour is. Even the same person may have different ideas about a certain period of time depending on their mood.
The continuous rhythm and internal precision of clocks have led me to consider these devices as Active External Memories (MEXA by its initials in Spanish) of time measurement. Clocks always remind us of elapsed time and the time of day. Clocks are characterized by having MEXA.
The types of clocks are:
1- Timers: in washing machines, microwaves and hourglasses.
2- Chronometers: in sports and science.
3- Synchronized with the day: the time.
Remembering a year, for example 1980, is a mental process.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
You are talking about experiencing apparent length of duration depending on your state of mind. This is a wholly subjective experience based on the brain's expectation.
This is how the the optical illusion of the checkerboard manifests itself in the brain. The brain expects to see a shaded object lighter than what it is, even as you "know" the tiles are the same color, your brain will not allow you to see A and B as the same color.
Note; there are times your brain will not allow you to see objective reality even if you know what that reality is!
Watch the Anil Seth lecture. He will actually demonstrate how the brain works by "best guessing"! It is irrefutable proof.
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What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
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