Does space bend In a pure vacuum ?

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paddoboy said:
:p
Spacetime which evolved at the BB, is as pure a vacuum as it is possible to get and its generally flat geography warps, twists, bends, curves in the presence of mass/energy. Even light/photons curve spacetime an infinitesimal amount, due to its momentum.
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I didn't actually ask "Does space bend in a pure vacuum?".

I just linked to my earlier post and the link was "called" that automatically as it is the title of the thread.

It is an interesting question though and I think I am now of the opinion that geometry itself may be a kind of "movable feast" that adapts to its environment like a chamaeleon.

There seems to still be a mystery as to what actually is the mechanism that makes mass-energy curve spacetime and I would be interested as to whether spacetime is continuous or discrete(again unknown at present I am fairly sure)
 
geordief said:
There seems to still be a mystery as to what actually is the mechanism that makes mass-energy curve spacetime and I would be interested as to whether spacetime is continuous or discrete(again unknown at present I am fairly sure)
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Certainly both unknown at this time, but the first point certainly aligns with the model perfectly....the second point is still being hotly debated I think.
 
paddoboy said:
And you would be correct! Space is simply what is between you and me and the Moon and beyond....Time simply stops everything from happening together. The rest is fairy tale nonsense.
Spacetime of course is the unified multi-dimensional framework within which it is possible to locate events and describe the relationships between them in terms of spatial coordinates and time. the concept spacetime follows from the observation that the speed of light is invariant, i.e. it does not vary with the motion of the emitter or the observer. Spacetime allows a description of reality that is common for all observers in the universe, regardless of their relative motion.
So in effect light does not bend per se. It is spacetime that bends in the presence of mass and/or energy. Light simply follows geodesics in that curved/bent spacetime.
This has been positively verified many times by many methods...the prehelion shift of Mercury, gravitational lensing are the most recognised.
The BB was the evolution of this space and time we now call spacetime. ..the four forces were unified as one superforce, and we had no matter at all, until this superforce at around t=10-35th second started to decouple. This created false vacuums and phase transitions and the excesses of energy went into creating our first particle.
As Dave so wisely told you, drop the fairy tale books, pick up a science book, accept that you are not any learned professional, and learn from those learned professionals and the words and evidence of the greats of the past on whose shoulders they stand.
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Space is simply what is between you and me and the Moon and beyond....Time simply stops everything from happening together.
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To your last statement from immediate above quote .

That is actually a fairy tale of mathematics ; not a physical reality .
 
geordief said:
I didn't actually ask "Does space bend in a pure vacuum?".

I just linked to my earlier post and the link was "called" that automatically as it is the title of the thread.

It is an interesting question though and I think I am now of the opinion that geometry itself may be a kind of "movable feast" that adapts to its environment like a chamaeleon.

There seems to still be a mystery as to what actually is the mechanism that makes mass-energy curve spacetime and I would be interested as to whether spacetime is continuous or discrete(again unknown at present I am fairly sure)
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To your first sentance in your last statement . Energy>mass ; does not have a grip on space . Understand what I mean ? Not not ask me .
 
river said:
To your last statement from immediate above quote .

That is actually a fairy tale of mathematics ; not a physical reality .
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Mathematics is the language of physics...we leave the fairy tales and bullshit to you and a few other ignorant would be's if they could be's.
 
Pad said ;

Space is simply what is between you and me and the Moon and beyond....Time simply stops everything from happening together.
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river said: ↑
To your last statement from immediate above quote .

That is actually a fairy tale of mathematics ; not a physical reality .
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paddoboy said:
Mathematics is the language of physics...we leave the fairy tales and bullshit to you and a few other ignorant would be's if they could be's.
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As I said above
 
river said:
Pad said ;

River, as per usual you appear confused...space, that between you and me, is not the same as spacetime. Time, the stuff that stops everything from happening together, is not spacetime. Spacetime bends and warps in the presence of mass/energy and as I have informed you, that is validated by many methods.
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river said:
Pad said ;








As I said above
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River, as per usual you appear confused...space, that between you and me, is not the same as spacetime. Time, the stuff that stops everything from happening together, is not spacetime. Spacetime bends and warps in the presence of mass/energy and as I have informed you, that is validated by many methods.
 
images


300px-Einstein_cross.jpg
 
paddoboy said:
River, as per usual you appear confused...space, that between you and me, is not the same as spacetime. Time, the stuff that stops everything from happening together, is not spacetime. Spacetime bends and warps in the presence of mass/energy and as I have informed you, that is validated by many methods.
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Everything is happening together .

What " stuff " is time made of ?
 
Let me define it all again river. Space is the regions between the planets and stars, but excluding their atmospheres.
Time is the intervals between sequential events and is measured by a clock.
Spacetime is the multi dimensional framework against which we locate all events. Spacetime follows from the observation that the speed of light is fixed and it does not vary with the motion of the emitter or the observer. This spacetime allows a description of reality that is common for all observers in the universe, regardless of their relative motion. Intervals of space and time considered separately are not the same for all observers.
 
river said:
↑

Thats just time zones . And Sun up Sun down .

Imagine without time zones .
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Yep time zones, so? They are all different time zones.
I will now take a trip in my light space ship and travel away from you at 99.999c for six months and then turn around and return to you six months later according to my on board and my own biological clocks aboard my ship. Guess what river! You will be long dead and buried and I will be returning to an Earth around 223 years in the future.
 
river said: ↑
In the presence of energy and mass .
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paddoboy said:
Of course!!! Now you are learning!!That's exactly what I said...good onya river!
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Thanks but I'm not done here yet .

Why does space exist in the first place ?

Can space exist alone without energy>matter existing in the first place , can space exist by its self ?

Or does space need energy and matter to exist ?

Is space a consequence of energy and matter ?

Or do space , energy , matter , manifest at the same moment ?
 
river said:
Thanks but I'm not done here yet .
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Of course not, as dave has been doing his darndest to educate you to know avail.
river said:
Why does space exist in the first place ?
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The space and the time [spacetime ] came into existance at around 10-43 seconds after the BB. Before that we can only speculate as to why and how.
river said:
Can space exist alone without energy>matter existing in the first place , can space exist by its self ?
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https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/a11332.html
Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around?
No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.
river said:
Or does space need energy and matter to exist ?
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See previous link.
river said:
Is space a consequence of energy and matter ?
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No, matter and energy are a consequence of spacetime.
river said:
Or do space , energy , matter , manifest at the same moment ?
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The BB was the evolution of space and time [spacetime] as we know them, along with the four forces which in that first instant were united as one superforce.

Now river, I have answered as best as I can and to the best of my knowledge. I'm not 100% sure that all my answers are scientifically correct. So why don't you now stop being cunning and conniving into trying to "trap"people, and instead try and be honest and let it all out as to what you believe happened. Oh, and some evidence would be nice.
 
Besides the perhelion shift of Mercury and gravitational lensing, there is another experiment which has shown that spacetime warps, bends, twists and waves in the presence of mass energy. It was the GP-B experiment which showed that the rotating Earth does indeed twist within its immediate vicinity, the spacetime surrounding it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B

Gravity Probe B (GP-B) was a satellite-based mission to test two unverified predictions of general relativity: the geodetic effect and frame-dragging. This was to be accomplished by measuring, very precisely, tiny changes in the direction of spin of four gyroscopes contained in an Earth satellite orbiting at 650 km (400 mi) altitude, crossing directly over the poles.

The satellite was launched on 20 April 2004 on a Delta II rocket.[4] The spaceflight phase lasted until 2005;[5] its aim was to measure spacetime curvature near Earth, and thereby the stress–energy tensor (which is related to the distribution and the motion of matter in space) in and near Earth. This provided a test of general relativity, gravitomagnetism and related models. The principal investigator was Francis Everitt.

Initial results confirmed the expected geodetic effect to an accuracy of about 1%. The expected frame-dragging effect was similar in magnitude to the current noise level (the noise being dominated by initially unmodeled effects due to nonuniform coatings on the gyroscopes). Work continued to model and account for these sources of error, thus permitting extraction of the frame-dragging signal. By August 2008, the frame-dragging effect had been confirmed to within 15% of the expected result,[6] and the December 2008 NASA report indicated that the geodetic effect was confirmed to better than 0.5%.
 
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