Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God in the Bible? (No Atheists Please)
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Matthew 22786 said:Hello,
There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.
If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.
Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?
Peace be unto you
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Jesus often use the terms 'Father' for God and 'Son' for Himself, thus it's a easy step to conclude He is Gods Son.
An example:
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Since the trinity is a complicated concept I can only give examples where they are very "connected":
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
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c7ityi_ said:
Hey,
The reason I specifically said not to repeat john 10:30 is because it is the most repeated verse, that I have to reply again and again to. I give my answer but then someone pops up who isn't following the whole thread and gives me John 10:30 for the proof, then I reply again, and then someone else comes up and uses the same verse. It gets annoying after a while
. So to the answer of this verse search the first couple of pages, since it usually is the FIRST verse to be asked (usually).Peace be unto you
I haven't found a passage in which He claims to be God, but He did claim that He was Gods Son, which I think is necessary to understand the trinity, but as it also says the Son only does what God shows Him, what God does He does, thus being "as if" they were one person, with one will. Since Jesus indeed was Gods Son, we could very well do the leap that He Himself is also God, since they have the same nature and since Jesus is the "bridge" that connects God with us.786 said:Hello,
There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.
If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.
Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?
Peace be unto you
Also it says that Jesus was before us, and Jesus talks about the glory He had before the world was made (which indeed gives Him God status
).
Brilliant.Gambit Star said:
Also Brilliant.786 said:JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)
What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?
First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).
In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).
Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).
In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:
Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)
The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.
Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":
JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)
Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.
How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:
JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)
I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.
This is just playing word games. This is similar to.
When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God!
Really now tell me God said "I AM" the beggar said "I am" both God right?
Peace be unto you
Note: Try this thread, in which I have answered many quotes. I provide this so the same verses are not repeated.http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=30133
"Son of God" means someone that follows God's commandments, someone that follows the path of peace.
Matthew 5:9
"9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
786, you are an extremely valuable rarity. Please keep posting.
Matthew 5:9
"9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
786, you are an extremely valuable rarity. Please keep posting.
God doesn't exist. Jesus was the product of premarital coitus between Mary and Joseph, if he even existed, anyway.
Plus, the real name isn't actually "jesus", that's just a muddled mistranslation of his aramaic name, which was "Yeshua" or "Joseph". He was named after his father, like many peoples within the Roman Empire.
Plus, the real name isn't actually "jesus", that's just a muddled mistranslation of his aramaic name, which was "Yeshua" or "Joseph". He was named after his father, like many peoples within the Roman Empire.
Cyperium said:I haven't found a passage in which He claims to be God, but He did claim that He was Gods Son, which I think is necessary to understand the trinity, but as it also says the Son only does what God shows Him, what God does He does, thus being "as if" they were one person, with one will. Since Jesus indeed was Gods Son, we could very well do the leap that He Himself is also God, since they have the same nature and since Jesus is the "bridge" that connects God with us.
Also it says that Jesus was before us, and Jesus talks about the glory He had before the world was made (which indeed gives Him God status
Hi the reason you haven't found a passage is because there is none
Truthseeker has answered the "Son of God" part very briefly. (Thruthseeker- Thanks man I appreciate that)
Now look I can try to prove your point wrong as I have done with many other people. You can give me your verses first, the reason is because sometimes the verse is misunderstood, and also the context of the verse is really important in most cases.
But I will save you the time to not even give me those verses. Just read the following.
1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28
2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3
3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18
4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.
5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.
6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26
7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.
8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3
9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18
10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36
11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42
I think you are smart enough to understand the verses, and I have highlighted parts of the verses as hints for you to understand that Jesus DENIED being God. So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.
Peace be upon you
TruthSeeker said:"Son of God" means someone that follows God's commandments, someone that follows the path of peace.
Matthew 5:9
"9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
786, you are an extremely valuable rarity. Please keep posting.
Yes this is important point to understand that Son of God doesn't mean literally the "Son" of God, but "Son" refers to followers.
Peace be unto you
Cyperium said:
Okay, well first off your 1st argument David calling him Lord and all that. Well according to the prophesy the messiah is going to be from the "seed of David". There had a long debate over this topic on sciforum before, and we really couldn't quite reach a conclusion, since Jesus had no geneology, even though Luke and Matthew give a geneology linking him to Jesus. I'm sure you can understand why Jesus had no geneology. So now to say that if Jesus is denying to be the "son" of David he then refuses to fulfill the prophecy. And I'm sure Jesus had no intention of that. Now for the word "Lord", well you must understand that the word "Lord" doesn't mean God and can be used for people of greater authority, in respect, and other reasons also. While "son" is considered less then "Lord" thus it is quite possible Jesus is showing his status as to being greater than of David. The best scenario it suggests is that Jesus is of greater status then David, to infer that this suggests him to be God is too big of an inference, and can possibly be false also. So we need to find good "proof" not "chance" to say that Jesus is God. And BTW since Jesus being God would be a central belief then it MUST be really explicit, and straightforward, and there should be NO reason to INFER. As the Ten Commandments were EXTREMELY EXPLICIT and were a CENTRAL belief. "Hear oh Israel, your Lord is One Lord" really Explicit is it not? Then to suggest Jesus is God then it would be explicit as it is a central belief, and God would not want humans to be infering on such a critical topic, as the Bible says "God is not the author of confusion". If such a critical and central belief depends on infering then how can God NOT be the author of confusion, just think about it. The centrals beliefs have all been stated explicitly. Then why not the concept of Jesus being God?
And the trinity which you were try to show. I respect your attempt but please read the verse you provided carefully. In every aspect Father is greater than the Son. I agree that it shows they are connected. But a prophet and God obviously will be connected. The prophet is basically a representative of of God, and thus connected in all ways.
Now I see you have opted to take a difference path in trying to show me all of this. All we are doing is infering with NO concrete proof.
Jesus could have been explicit if he truly believed what you say he is. Like the following verses are so explicit.
1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28
2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3
3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18
4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.
5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.
6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26
7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.
8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3
9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18
10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36
11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42
So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.
I can only say this.
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
This verse applies to ALL prophets of God. You just take out "Jesus of Nazareth" and put the name of any prophet, and the verse will still be correct!!!
Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17).
So I request you all, dont commit this crime of claiming a prophet to be God, you talk the greatest blasphemy against God according to the Bible, and you break the Ten Commandments. Stop believing the corrupted Chruch. There is a long history of the corruption of the Chruch. It is the Church who introduced the Trinity. Early Christians didn't believe in the Trinity!!!!! Ask the Bible scholars who are honest enough to admit that.
".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development" (emphasis added). "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.
The LAST QUADRANT of the 4th CENTURY!!!!!! A PRODUCT OF 3 CENTURIES!!!!!
Stop believing this doctrine of the corrupted Chruch.
The Church was so corrupt that they even corrupted the Bible by inserting
1 John 5:7
"there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"
Which now the scholars have agreed that it is a fabrication, a later addition. The Church even put there lies in the Bible, but thanks God some Christians are honest enough to accept the fabrication of 1John 5:7, and also that Trinity was a product of 3 centuries. Even if you can find a verse to be of the Trinity (if is unlikely, but what if) then it might aswell also be a fabrication which the scholars haven't figured out yet. The truth is that Trinity is a later addition to the message of Jesus.
What proof do you need to reject this belief in Trinity?
Peace be upon you
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How can you remember so many good scriptures!?!?786 said:Yes this is important point to understand that Son of God doesn't mean literally the "Son" of God, but "Son" refers to followers.
Peace be unto you
TruthSeeker said:How can you remember so many good scriptures!?!?
Well I have been talking on this subject the most of the time I do this. I didn't just talk on this forums, I've talked on chat rooms, and to people around me, so I repeat these verses to different people, and so I basically remembered them automatically, but not all verses. Some I still look up. I created a word document of all verses which I use most of the time, so even if I forget I have them for reference quickly. And I'm nothing really, there are many people out there whose sole job is doing dialogue on different religions, basically comparative religion.
Here are some sames: Dr. Zakir Naik, Ahmed Deedat. You will be amazed at how many verses they have memorized.
Basically sometimes you repeat some stuff so often that you never need to look for them. I'm sure you can understand this concept.
Peace be unto you
Yeah, I understand.
Well, that's why there are people that actually have a degree in theology.....
It's kinda sad to see people that read stuff a little bit and argue that they know it better. What if they would talk with a theologian (or whatever), eh?
People treat religion as if it was passtime. Well... it takes a lot of studying to know it well....
Well, that's why there are people that actually have a degree in theology.....
It's kinda sad to see people that read stuff a little bit and argue that they know it better. What if they would talk with a theologian (or whatever), eh?
People treat religion as if it was passtime. Well... it takes a lot of studying to know it well....
That's one of my favorites....786 said:
What is "pbuh"?
Also...
1 John 4:15
"15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. "
How would that be properly translated from the Greek scriptures?
Here is a commentary I found about 1 John 4
"Christians who are well acquainted with the Scriptures, may, in humble dependence on Divine teaching, discern those who set forth doctrines according to the apostles, and those who contradict them. The sum of revealed religion is in the doctrine concerning Christ, his person and office. The false teachers spake of the world according to its maxims and tastes, so as not to offend carnal men. The world approved them, they made rapid progress, and had many followers such as themselves; the world will love its own, and its own will love it. The true doctrine as to the Saviour's person, as leading men from the world to God, is a mark of the spirit of truth in opposition to the spirit of error. The more pure and holy any doctrine is, the more likely to be of God; nor can we by any other rules try the spirits whether they are of God or not. And what wonder is it, that people of a worldly spirit should cleave to those who are like themselves, and suit their schemes and discourses to their corrupt taste? (1Jn 4:7-13)
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...etCommentaryText&cid=70&source=2&seq=i.69.4.1
"Christians who are well acquainted with the Scriptures, may, in humble dependence on Divine teaching, discern those who set forth doctrines according to the apostles, and those who contradict them. The sum of revealed religion is in the doctrine concerning Christ, his person and office. The false teachers spake of the world according to its maxims and tastes, so as not to offend carnal men. The world approved them, they made rapid progress, and had many followers such as themselves; the world will love its own, and its own will love it. The true doctrine as to the Saviour's person, as leading men from the world to God, is a mark of the spirit of truth in opposition to the spirit of error. The more pure and holy any doctrine is, the more likely to be of God; nor can we by any other rules try the spirits whether they are of God or not. And what wonder is it, that people of a worldly spirit should cleave to those who are like themselves, and suit their schemes and discourses to their corrupt taste? (1Jn 4:7-13)
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...etCommentaryText&cid=70&source=2&seq=i.69.4.1
TruthSeeker said:That's one of my favorites....
What is "pbuh"?
Also...
1 John 4:15
"15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. "
How would that be properly translated from the Greek scriptures?
Hey,
"Pbuh" means Peace Be Upon Him. I try to say it after the name of every prophet, but sometimes I forget. I'm a Muslim so we are supposed to say it.
As for the verse. I would interpret it same as Jesus said I am one in you as you are one in me. And the prayer about making the desciples being the same in his prayer.
I would think the reason behind this logic is that Jesus had the message of God, or in other words the "Word of God". In another place Jesus says that eternal life is knowing God, obviously you know God by the Word of God. So since Jesus believe in the message he is 1 with God, and as God is in Jesus, Jesus is in God. By this explanation it would also make sense why Jesus would pray about making the desciples one in him as he was one with the Father, because obviously desciples believe in Jesus, indirectly believing God, as they believed Jesus's teachings which was the Word of God.
This is how I think it makes sense, and how we can connect these different verses. Maybe I am wrong about it, only God knows.
Hopefully this explanation is not confusing, because sometimes what I say confuses many people
.Peace be unto you
Well, you are the nicest Muslim I've ever met.786 said:
Yeah...
Yeah. Good thing you say that. Most people don't....
Well, that's understandable..
You tooPeace be unto you