Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God in the Bible? (No Atheists Please)

7

786

Searching for Truth
Valued Senior Member
Hello,

There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.

If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.

Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?

Peace be unto you :)
 
There is no god! Jesus was the bastard son of a roman rapist!
Hail atheism!
And what the hell, hail Satan too, yeeeaarrgh!!!
 
Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One". In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.

These could have been expressions of Mystical Unity with God. Every Spiritualist, Zen, Yogin, and Meditator knows that if one can retain Consciousness after suspending all awareness of Ego and Self, the only thing that remains is God Consciousness. Does having an Experience of God Consciousness make one God? Strictly speaking, no. Only by the most Pantheistic definition of God, that is, supposing God One with All Things, could one get away with claiming to be God, since there would be no such thing as anything Not-God. But as we ordinarily understand things, having the experience of God, though extremely special, does not make one God, or equal to God.

But it is significant of Christianity that it does seem to encourage the Mystical Experience if one is in the least open to it. Islam, though, seems very contrary to Mysticism. The Sufi Orders that exist within the framework of Islam, though they had originated in the time of Zoroastrian Religious Beliefs, are very Mystical but this has often created friction between them and the Fundamentalist Muslims who had repeatedly throughout their History outlawed the Sufi Orders and didn't hesitate to murder Sufi Mystics who had publically claimed to have experienced God Consciousness.

Was Jesus God. No. Jesus was Son of Mary who as the Immaculate Conception was like the Second Eve. This made Jesus the Perfect Man, like the Original Adam, but without the Sin or the Curse to slow Him down. The most we can say for Christ was that He was Son of God.

Paul's Doctrine of Redemption, though, required Jesus to be God so that the Blood of Jesus could justifiably have the Potency to Save Humanity of all Sin. After the claim was made that Christ's Death was possessed of such an Infinite Power, than there was no choice but to make Jesus into a Second God. One lie leads to another.
 
Leo Volont said:
Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One". In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.

These could have been expressions of Mystical Unity with God. Every Spiritualist, Zen, Yogin, and Meditator knows that if one can retain Consciousness after suspending all awareness of Ego and Self, the only thing that remains is God Consciousness. Does having an Experience of God Consciousness make one God? Strictly speaking, no. Only by the most Pantheistic definition of God, that is, supposing God One with All Things, could one get away with claiming to be God, since there would be no such thing as anything Not-God. But as we ordinarily understand things, having the experience of God, though extremely special, does not make one God, or equal to God.

But it is significant of Christianity that it does seem to encourage the Mystical Experience if one is in the least open to it. Islam, though, seems very contrary to Mysticism. The Sufi Orders that exist within the framework of Islam, though they had originated in the time of Zoroastrian Religious Beliefs, are very Mystical but this has often created friction between them and the Fundamentalist Muslims who had repeatedly throughout their History outlawed the Sufi Orders and didn't hesitate to murder Sufi Mystics who had publically claimed to have experienced God Consciousness.

Was Jesus God. No. Jesus was Son of Mary who as the Immaculate Conception was like the Second Eve. This made Jesus the Perfect Man, like the Original Adam, but without the Sin or the Curse to slow Him down. The most we can say for Christ was that He was Son of God.

Paul's Doctrine of Redemption, though, required Jesus to be God so that the Blood of Jesus could justifiably have the Potency to Save Humanity of all Sin. After the claim was made that Christ's Death was possessed of such an Infinite Power, than there was no choice but to make Jesus into a Second God. One lie leads to another.
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Thanks for the reply.

What do you believe? You say that Jesus is Not a God. Then you say Jesus is the Son of God. Then you say that Jesus being a God was a lie spread by Paul.

Could you make yourself clearer in what you yourself believe.

As for the quotes you have presented I shall provide a response to them in my next post.

Peace be unto you :)
 
Leo Volont said:
Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One".
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JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.

How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.
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This is just playing word games. This is similar to.

When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God!

Really now tell me God said "I AM" the beggar said "I am" both God right?

Peace be unto you :)

Note: Try this thread, in which I have answered many quotes. I provide this so the same verses are not repeated.http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=30133
 
the major source of confusion for a-theist and theist alike regarding whether 'Jesus'
was really 'God' comes from them not looking behind the curtain...not anting to, or dismissing plausible ideas that offer substantial clues

Read The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, by J.Allegro
He shows thgat Jesus wasn't A man who was God. which is truly absured. as absurd as 'virgin births' and walking on water etc. His name 'Chrestos' referred to an hallucinogenic mushroom. This mushoom was believed by the patriarcjhal mystics to be totally connected with a sky god....for example see the associations. the phallic shape of the mushroom; not having microscopes they believed shrooms were born virginally, especially after thunder storms.....etc., read it

this insight is also commensurate with pagan mythos from where Christianist got many of its mythological motifs....of the god~man son of Goddess, who was also the hallucinogenic sacrament!

The major difference between these EARTh religions, and their interpretation via Judaic christianity is that the latter dogmatized the 'son' was of the 'FATHER'...not Mother. this is a crucial transpition. no little thing. because the sky god wasn't immanent like the ancient idea of Goddess. so from Juadic Christianity we get this dissociative psychological confusion---away from body/sexuality and Nature

Of course the people follwing christinity dont even get the secret intiiaroy meaning of sacrament in actual experience (even with its dodgy dogma), they get empty symbolism and useless sacraments
 
chrlistians need to make there mind up about jesus,is he man, son of god, or god him self ? when jesus is shown to have done miracles,they say that proves he was god, but when he is shown to have done ungodly things,they say that was the "man" part of god... there is no stopping to the continous lies we get told to make him seem like god, either he is man or god and if he is god,then how does that make him the son of the same god ?? its damn confusing,

If he is GOD then why does he need to worship GOD (in the bible) and if god has a son, then that makes 2 gods !!!!
 
786,

Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all depend heavily on the Old Testament as a basis for their varying concepts. A key tenet of the OT is that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and all three religions accept this.

This gives Christianity a considerable problem since their alleged savior is a separate entity from the essential single godhead, and only God can forgive sins and bestow life etc. In an attempt to resolve this somewhat obvious paradox Christians created the incongruity known as the trinity concept. Rather than accept that they had made a rather obvious mistake and that JC could not be a god, instead they simply asserted that God and Jesus are one and the same thing and still insisted that there is only one god. The result is an absurdity.

But Leo points out that the only certain thing that can be said about JC is that he is the Son of God. That of course doesn’t solve anything since again rather obviously a son of a god is yet another god and that defies the accepted tenet that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

In this regard at least Islam is more internally consistent by insisting that Jesus could only have been a prophet and that there is only one god. The bible is ambiguous and skirts around the issue of Jesus being god and it was some 300 years later long after the NT books were written that the Trinity concept was invented in the hope of resolving the conflicts that were dogging early Christianity.

Cris
 
If Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, then how many chromosomes does he have?

If 46, did he get all from Mary? If so, then he wasn't a god at all, but a clone. A clone of a human.
 
I've always heard that "Son of God" could be translated to mean" Servant of God" in Hebrew but I do know also that David(pbuh) was also called God's "Begotten Son" which kinda fly's in the face of John 3:16



Psalms 2:7


7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8




John 3:16



16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




also:



In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn Israel was called God's First Son.

In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.




Son's of God in those verses seem to mean Servant to me :confused: but maybe a Christian can answer better than me......its not my intention to disrespect their beliefs.........peace :m:
 
786 said:
Thanks for the reply.

What do you believe? You say that Jesus is Not a God. Then you say Jesus is the Son of God. Then you say that Jesus being a God was a lie spread by Paul.

Could you make yourself clearer in what you yourself believe.

As for the quotes you have presented I shall provide a response to them in my next post.

Peace be unto you :)
Click to expand...

A Philosopher once said that intelligence shows itself in the ability to refine catagories. You seem to think 'God' and 'Son of God' resolves to the very same thing. If you were a bit smarter, you wouldn't think so.

Regarding the Spiritual Status of Jesus, as I said, being the Son of the Immaculate Conception He was effectively the Second Adam -- the Perfect Spiritual Man. As the Perfect Spiritual Man He was able to achieve a Mystical Identity with God -- a sharing of Consciousness. Sharing a Consciousness does not make Jesus into God, as God retains His Oneness even when He shares it. However, for the rest of us, a Person who is participating in God Consciousness is in effect an Extension of God.

The biggest mistake in Theological History was the formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, the Apologists for the Doctrine are able to eventually erect a huge house of cards argument that finally arrives at the point where Divinity is resolved into One Divine Nature, to bring us back to Monotheism. But it is complicated and tenuous and leaves us at first appearances thinking that there are Three Gods and that some historical man is tantamount to God the Creator. People are too shocked at the Blasphemy of it to ever have patience with the long apologizing argument. It would have been better to explain Christ's Holiness as I have, that it was an extension of Divinity into Christ by the Grace of God -- a participation in God and not a usurpation of Divinity.
 
Aborted_Fetus said:
I am atheist and I am posting this just because you said you did not want atheists posting.
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Didn't we mention that we did NOT want Atheists to fornicate themselves and then throw themselves off a bridge.
 
Leo, you surprise me - you've always defended all the most outré practices of the Catholic faith, of which I would have thought the belief in the Trinity was one of the chief tenets. I'm quite sure that when Catholics recite "begotten, not made" they are acknowledging Jesus as the only "begotten" son of God - "God from God, light from light, True God from True God", and consequently dismiss any description of David as begotten in the same way. Particularly as David is the son of Jesse, as has been pointed out.

As has been said, the only gospel to explicitly use the Jesus/God duality (or one-ality) is the late composed, non-synoptic, philosophic rather than reportage, John.

The Q-based Gospels make reference to Jesus referring to himself as "the Son of Man", but this is probably just an idiomatic way of saying "me." "Who want's a drink?" "This mother's son does!", that kind of thing. Burton Mack's Q: The Lost Gospel ascribes the earliest Jesus quotes as reflecting the Cynic philosophy, and Cynics often used the "son of man" formula. So Son of Man doesn't really mean Son of God in the way it's often taken.

My personal belief is that Jesus never did personally claim to be one with God. But the Bible is subject to interpretation, including the meaning of words like hen. It is this interpretation from which the established Church makes its doctrine.

Sorry 786 for having also breached the "No Atheists" rule, but as Godless once said which applies also to me, "I know much more about the Bible now I'm an atheist than when I believed." I'm not claiming special knowledge, though, I just wanted to participate in the debate.

itopal said:
Jesus’ real dad was Joseph, in the context of the text; or myths. In Mathew and Luke they DIRECTLY trace Yeshua-Netser; Jesus back to the Jesse-Branch ("Netser"=branch of; or blood-line). Jesse begot king David, begot, begot, etc, Joseph, father of Yeshua, the Jews trace lineage through the male counter-part; not female (the bible is a patriarchal book, its context is almost always male).

This is not even debatable, it is in the book.
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You've put your finger on the one genuine non-debatable piece of fiction in the New Testament. Matthew and Luke only agree as far as David. But Matthew says that Jesus was descended through Solomon, and Luke says that Jesus was descended through Nathan - a different son of David. So one of them made it up. And as far as I know, the standard apologetic for this is that one gives the descent through the male line and the other through the female line (so that despite it saying "the father of Joseph" it really meant, of Heli I think, "the father-in-law of Joseph") which would actively deny your point about patriarchy.
 
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I wrote a biblical reply with quotes from Scripture, and as I was getting ready to post it, it just disappeared. How is this?
 
The Scripture references were Romans 3:3; Philippians 2:10,11; Psalm 2::3; Isaiah 9:6. You may fill in the connections; but let me repeat this much: Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, and there will be no peace until men will let Him rule and reign in each and every heart, no matter what one's religion may teach. By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word.
 
" Drink this wine, for it is my blood"
" Eat this bread for it is my body "

...cant you see it ? we are God

Jesus was a beautiful man that brought the future to the present.
 
"By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word."

How can atheism possibly be a religion?

a-theist: without a god.

That's like saying an a-unicornist really has more faith to adhere to the tenants of disbelief of unicorns than a unicornist.

I think you simply want atheism to be a religion and that you want to believe that an atheist has to work harder at disbelief than a member of one of the theistic cults does. It couldn't be further from the truth.
 
LeeS said:
The Scripture references were Romans 3:3; Philippians 2:10,11; Psalm 2::3; Isaiah 9:6. You may fill in the connections; but let me repeat this much: Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, and there will be no peace until men will let Him rule and reign in each and every heart, no matter what one's religion may teach. By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word.
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All of your verses are NOT by Jesus (pbuh). I am looking for verses where Jesus (pbuh) claims to be God.

While you look for verses in which Jesus (pbuh) claims to be God, consider the following verses.

The following are EXPLICIT verses which JESUS HIMSELF has said.

*Note- Considering the notion of equality with God.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42

The provided verse leave no doubt that Jesus (pbuh) didn't consider himself God, but rather a servant of God.

Peace be unto you :)
 
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