Does God use a full disclosure policy or does he hide information?

So you're saying that this is one of those "Dog Works In Mysterious Ways" kind of things, and "It Is Not Up To Us To Question The Ways Of The Lord".

I don't know that that would really be considered an answer, but is certainly provides you with an out.
 
So you're saying that this is one of those "Dog Works In Mysterious Ways" kind of things, and "It Is Not Up To Us To Question The Ways Of The Lord".

I don't know that that would really be considered an answer, but is certainly provides you with an out.
No
I am saying that even disclosure of the mail box requires knowledge of where the mail box is

If one is of the attitude that mail will find its way into the living room if its really important, one probably won't get much mail ...
 
Lori, ever notice that English has no gender-neutral (epicene) pronouns, letting men get all the credit, such as talking about doctors and then using 'he' as a refer back?

I will be inventing some gender neutral pronouns, although they may take a thousand years to catch on.

Sometimes the plural "their" is used as singular, but we don't really want to further corrupt that, but to relieve it, say with "eir", for both continuity and for it to be a new and separate word.

In fact, all the new pronouns should start with 'e', so as to make them more systematic, 'e' being the first invention, standing for 'he or she', although s/he still works fine for the written word, when slashed are allowed.

> Woman has Man in it;
> Mrs. has Mr. in it;
> Female has Male in it;
> She has He in it;
> Madam has Adam in it;
> Okay, Okay, it all makes sense now...
> I never looked at it this way before:
> Ever notice how all of women's problems start with MEN?
> MENtal illness
> MENstrual cramps
> MENtal breakdown
> MENopause
> GUYnecologist
> AND
> When we have REAL trouble, it's a HISterectomy.

here
 
It seems strange that some Hypothetical Being would produce Universal Truths which this Hypothetical Being wouldn't want known.

Can anybody provide a rationale for this?

The Wiz is not telling us what He is because She is conducting a quiz?
 
- there is conflict in that question,in one point you are saying you have to do as god tells you to, and in the other you are saying you have the choice to obey.

Nowhere did I say any such thing. You asked if I would do something if a god told me to do it. I said it depends on what it is. This is the same as it would be for any human.

-"the assumption that we have the ability to know that it is in fact a god telling us to do something."
this tells me you want 'do as you are told', facts=no choice, facts= certainty

Unsure how you got that from the statement which was there merely to refute your earlier objection, (that 'god' wouldn't say any such thing). The question itself assumed our ability to know that it was talking to us - as it would be with any human but I don't see how knowing that a human or god is telling you to do something means "no choice".

if i am instructed to do something or die, this is not from god,this is not a choice.

Baseless assertion and it certainly is, in the theistic scheme, considered a chosen reality of our existence - although I don't see its relevance to the question as originally asked and my original answer to it.

The question did not say: "If god threatens you with death unless..." you simply asked if a god told me to do something whether I'd do it or not, to which I answered: It depends what it's telling me to do - as it would with any human.

if i am instructed to kill someone, this is not from god.again this is not a choice.

Another baseless assertion. In the theistic scheme of course it certainly is a choice: Kill someone or do not kill them. As you continue: "( i wouldn't)". See?

i believe god would not put me in a place where he knows i would not comply.

Your 'belief' in what a god would or wouldn't is irrelevant to the question but makes it meaningless. If you adapted the question to say: "If god asked you to do something that he already knew you were going to do would you do it", then the answer should be obvious but the question becomes pointless.

i do not think that the bible is inerrant

This is, in actuality, the cowards version of: "It's fiction". Of course the theist can't use such terms because it shows the worthlessness of the entire subject so he says: "I don't believe it's inerrant", which is to say: "I believe that it's fictional - but only whenever it suits me". For what it's worth, I recognise that the bible is fictional as well.

maybe cause he wanted to make sure they would have the idea to disobey.
(they would not have ever thought of eating from the tree otherwise)

1. In absence of the snake, Adam and Eve would still have the free will to disobey. The fruit still exists and they have hands to pick them with, mouths to eat them with and functioning brains with which to decide to do so.

2. The above silliness is equivalent to telling your child not to stick their hands in the socket but then requiring someone to tell them to do the opposite because otherwise they'll never do it. The reality is that at the moment he tells them not to do something, he recognises their ability to do the opposite, otherwise telling them is pointless.

3. What you are doing is assuring that they fall - "They'd never make the wrong free choice unless..", (god knows what it would take to ensure they fall and makes sure it happens. This makes such god implicit in the crime and equally evil to the snake).
 
One cannot even presume that God exists, much less layer more structures upon. Period.

It is said that intelligent people can discuss things they do not believe in.
Often, to discuss an imaginary situation allows for the same words to be spoken while not attacking directly the situation that one of the parties may believe to be real and not imaginary.

By discussing the morals of Odin for example, I can say the same words that would offend one who believes in Jesus, while not speaking of Jesus. A good way sometimes to get a truth or message through an otherwise closed mind.

(So-called ‘God’ wasn’t even aware that when you tell children not to touch something, then they certainly will; ‘God’ then acting all surprised and angry about it. Just a silly tale, as ever.)

Case in point.
I agree it is a silly tale but we both insult believers by saying so If we were speaking of Odin doing it, a theist would be hard pressed to attack us for attacking his silly belief system.
We could then hide behind a ----that is not what I said but if the shoe fits your God then let him wear it.
Some would see this as political correctness and I admit to being too honest to play that game much.
This does not prevent me from seeing some of the benefits of political correctness.

If I was less of an absent minded professor type I would use that method more but it is not my style.

Regards
DL
 
""3. What you are doing is assuring that they fall - "They'd never make the wrong free choice unless..", (god knows what it would take to ensure they fall and makes sure it happens. This makes such god implicit in the crime and equally evil to the snake).""

Proof is in the doing.

One cannot say that they can do this or that without actualizing the doing.

I can tell myself forever that I can do this or that, IE, talk back to my wife, but without doing it I cannot ever quite know for sure that I can.

I am telling you here and now that I can.

Some day I will prove it.
Trust me I will. I will be quite drunk but I swear to God some day I will. LOL.

Speaking of autonomy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

Regards
DL
 
she did not need to know consequences because the lesson was not obey god or die..
the act of being able to disobey god was the lesson.(angels have no choice but to obey)
he taught us that we were capable of disobeying,thereby determining for ourselves what was good/evil.

do you consider it a bad thing to grow up and learn to make our own decisions? or would you just like your parents to make all your decisions for you?
isn't it considered bad parenting when we do not let our children make their own mistakes?

so when you intone the consequence of adam and eve as being a bad thing, are you saying you want your parents to make your decisions for you?
god was not saying do this and be punished,he was saying do this and make your own decisions, and if we decide on something that hurts is it gods fault?
if your mom tells you to not touch that, it will hurt you, and you touch it and get hurt, is it your moms fault you got hurt?




there are so many things not right with that statement..i don't know where to start..

I will let my post just above speak to most of this and will just point out your selective reading. You did not speak of the benefits of disobeying or why God held back that huge consequence.

Regards
DL
 
That is irrelevant to the question. You asked if 'god told you to do something' which is to make the assumption that we have the ability to know that it is in fact a god telling us to do something. My statement answered that: "It would depend on what it told me to do" and I went on to include an example that if instructed to me by a god would warrant a refusal on my part.

Interestingly, if you're so quick and eager to dismiss holy text as untrue - as you seem to be in this case - then you have no argument that a god wouldn't do such thing in the first place. Think about it.



I don't have much time for watching entire videos looking for someone elses answer to the question I have asked you. If you don't mind, I'd like you to tell me. Here is the question again then:

Why was the most evil entity in all existence, (Satan), allowed to freely roam the garden amongst two innocent people?

P.S I watched it - it doesn't answer my question :\ If you think it provided a relevant answer, kindly let me know what it is.
Regards,

I agree.
NMSquirrel sees something in that link that I do not as well. Then he is saying that I do not understand his point that is shown in the clip.

We are of course wrong and he is of course right.

Regards
DL
 
do you thinK the act of disclosure is devoid of any epistemological framework?

Duh. Of course there is a massive epistemological framework. Or at least there seems to be. Several practical issues too.

But, to use your analogy, how can one know where to go for the mailbox, when different theists point in different directions, claiming all kinds of things to be the mailbox?? Moreover, the different theists also describe the mail to be all kinds of things.
And then one is expected to accept that if one didn't find the mail or doesn't like it, that doesn't mean one hasn't actually found it.


Again, my point is that one cannot intentionally seek after something that one does not yet know.

If someone told me "Seek, and perchance you will find something useful and truthful", that makes more sense and is less frustrating (albeit still frustrating), than being told "God to the right mailbox, even though you don't know which one that is."
 
Duh. Of course there is a massive epistemological framework. Or at least there seems to be. Several practical issues too.

But, to use your analogy, how can one know where to go for the mailbox, when different theists point in different directions, claiming all kinds of things to be the mailbox?? Moreover, the different theists also describe the mail to be all kinds of things.
And then one is expected to accept that if one didn't find the mail or doesn't like it, that doesn't mean one hasn't actually found it.


Again, my point is that one cannot intentionally seek after something that one does not yet know.

If someone told me "Seek, and perchance you will find something useful and truthful", that makes more sense and is less frustrating (albeit still frustrating), than being told "God to the right mailbox, even though you don't know which one that is."
then you don't have the same problem as alexG, who can't even locate the general direction of the mail
 
men ARE leaders, inherently. but NOT inherently righteous, and therefore have led us straight to fucking hell. thanks a lot!

Generally speaking, who teaches children, men or women?

Compare the number of house husbands and housewives.
Compare the numbers of men teachers through the formative years as compared to women teachers.

Now try bashing men for how children are raised again.

Regards
DL
 
then you don't have the same problem as alexG, who can't even locate the general direction of the mail

But what does knowing the "general direction of the mail" help me?


I can make a good argument that the concept of "choosing a spiritual path" is illogical in itself.
 
like all issues of full disclosure, if the third party doesn't make the effort to get of their laurels and get the disclosure, they don't.
:eek:

The third party in this case was the talking snake and yes, it did give the positive information that God omitted.
Any judge would agree that God erred in not disclosing the huge consequence that he did not inform his children about.

A secular analogy would be a parent not ever telling his children about schools and keeping them forever under his thumb and working on the farm where education is just a useless commodity.

Regards
DL
 
The third party in this case was the talking snake and yes, it did give the positive information that God omitted.
Any judge would agree that God erred in not disclosing the huge consequence that he did not inform his children about.

A secular analogy would be a parent not ever telling his children about schools and keeping them forever under his thumb and working on the farm where education is just a useless commodity.

Regards
DL
I don't know what it is you are talking about.

What I was talking about however was that 0 effort = 0 disclosure
 
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