Does God implicitly consent to everything that happens?

[Dreamwalker]

A bit, yes.

A chicken in a cage, fed for our pleasure and pumped full of drugs is also not lost. But I think that it should be saved anyways...
Also, sheep are inside the fold because they were put there for teh convenience of men... I got an idea, I´ll think about that for some time.

 

[§outh§tar]

A bit, yes.

A chicken in a cage, fed for our pleasure and pumped full of drugs is also not lost. But I think that it should be saved anyways...
Also, sheep are inside the fold because they were put there for teh convenience of men... I got an idea, I´ll think about that for some time.

:bugeye:

 

[Nasor]

Try to understand this statement:

You can't save people who aren't lost.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here. Perhaps you could explain it?

Say I'm a Jew in a nazi concentration camp, and I ask God to save me. God doesn't. Wouldn't it therefor be reasonable to conclude that God wants me to be in the camp? I mean, if he didn't want me in the camp he would save me, right?

 

[Tiassa]

Orange M&M's

Say I'm a Jew in a nazi concentration camp, and I ask God to save me. God doesn't. Wouldn't it therefor be reasonable to conclude that God wants me to be in the camp? I mean, if he didn't want me in the camp he would save me, right?

I think it would be most appropriately phrased that God doesn't give a hoot one way or another. If God "wants" you in the concentration camp, it's because your presence in the camp is instrumental to whatever it is God actually cares about.

To wit: When I was in high school, as an obsessive joke, a friend of mine saved every orange M&M she got for nearly a year and gave a Mason® jar full fo the things to another girl for her birthday. The joke among that circle of girls was that in addition to green M&M's making you horny, orange brought bigger breasts. And, well ... it was a good-natured joke, of course, but it's not that "God" (e.g. the girl collecting the orange M&M's) wanted to delay the glory of their eating--the realization of their purpose--per se. She could care less about Joe Orange Smith or Bob Orange Takazumi. The end goal had nothing to do with Joe or Bob or either of their suffeirng. They were orange M&M's, and the orange M&M's were needed for a separate purpose. How the orange M&M's actually felt about the issue was irrelevant.

You're an orange M&M.

With luck, you'll be eaten by a pretty girl and dropped with the next bowel movement. Hell is eternity as a fatty deposit.

 

[okinrus]

Wouldn't you agree that for any injustice, there can be a redeeming justice?

I think it would be most appropriately phrased that God doesn't give a hoot one way or another. If God "wants" you in the concentration camp, it's because your presence in the camp is instrumental to whatever it is God actually cares about.

This is untrue. For instance, suppose your in a relationship, and your girlfriend says "I don't like you." You don't want her to say that. But you also must allow her to say that because without allowing, truth never is said.

 

[Tiassa]

Wouldn't you agree that for any injustice, there can be a redeeming justice?

Can be? Or is? Justice is one of the myths I cling to most strongly. But justice is a human issue. Justice doesn't enter into life on Earth until humans developed. In the cosmic scheme, justice is brand-spanking new. If it's an Onanism, the seed hasn't existed in the world long enough to hit the floor.

In potential, any injustice has its redeeming justice. In practice, however ... ha!

This is untrue. For instance, suppose your in a relationship, and your girlfriend says "I don't like you." You don't want her to say that. But you also must allow her to say that because without allowing, truth never is said.

Um ... what?

Really ... I wouldn't know where to start with that because I have no idea what it's supposed to mean in this context.

 

[antifreeze]

Wouldn't it therefor be reasonable to conclude that God wants me to be in the camp?

yes. that is what these people have been saying for the past dozen posts or so. you are trying to say that it is morally wrong, and the god that would want you to suffer in a concentration camp is unethical and a bad man/entity. but they are saying that what you want doesn't matter. you are in the concentration camp because "it serves the greater good."

For instance, suppose your in a relationship, and your girlfriend says "I don't like you." You don't want her to say that. But you also must allow her to say that because without allowing, truth never is said.

truth? who cares about the truth? i just wanna get laid.

 

[okinrus]

Can be? Or is? Justice is one of the myths I cling to most strongly. But justice is a human issue. Justice doesn't enter into life on Earth until humans developed. In the cosmic scheme, justice is brand-spanking new. If it's an Onanism, the seed hasn't existed in the world long enough to hit the floor.

Ok, I'll try to explain. The fact that many are hurt means that those who do care may bandage them. The fixing of what is wrong is much of the good that we do.

Really ... I wouldn't know where to start with that because I have no idea what it's supposed to mean in this context.

Ok, skip the part about girlfriend to avoid personal arguments. Suppose you had a best friend. Would you rather your friend lie and say he wants to continue being your friend, or would you want the truth? You would want the truth, but you would rather the truth be that your friend likes you. God is always truthful and brings all to the truth. The darkness owes it's darkness to the light, yet the light owes to no one. This is similar to what Jesus said. If he did not do those deeds in the sight of the Pharisees, they would not sin. But God does not owe anything to darkness, remaining always who he is.

 

[Tiassa]

truth? who cares about the truth? i just wanna get laid.

So, anyway ... you know those beggars on the streetcorner with the signs that say, "Why lie? I need a beer!"

I was coming out of a Mariners' game a couple weeks ago and there was this scraggly dude sitting and grinning on the streetcorner; he had his M's hat turned up on the sidewalk and a sign that simply said, "I'd like to get high," and had a pot leaf scrawled in the corner. It's actually remarkable how many people were giving him money.

Your post notes something vital to the discussion, Antifreeze--So you don't care about truth and just want to get laid? Very well. It is as God wills.

Whether or not you get laid? It is as God wills. You just can't presume God's will beforehand. That's the mistake many religious folks make.

 

[antifreeze]

Would you rather your friend lie and say he wants to continue being your friend, or would you want the truth?

so are you asking; would you want your friend to tell you the truth and stop being your friend, or lie to you while continuing to be your friend?

and what does "god's truthfulness" have to do with the topic at hand?

The darkness owes it's darkness to the light, yet the light owes to no one.

the darkness defines the light just as the light defines the darkness.

Your post notes something vital to the discussion

happy to help.

 

[§outh§tar]

Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here. Perhaps you could explain it?

Say I'm a Jew in a nazi concentration camp, and I ask God to save me. God doesn't. Wouldn't it therefor be reasonable to conclude that God wants me to be in the camp? I mean, if he didn't want me in the camp he would save me, right?

Why do you say God doesn't? Did He tell you that He won't?

EDIT: Sorry I thought you meant spiritual saving.. hehe

P.S. God did eventually save the Jews, mind you. It is arrogant to expect God to be at your beck and call just because you want it. After all, He also died a horrendous death on the cross.

 

[spidergoat]

After all, He also died a horrendous death on the cross.

Maybe, maybe not. There is some dude in Mexico that has himself crucified every Easter. He's going for 15 times, and he's up to 12 already.

Anyway, Christians have a stock answer for everything. When evil happens in spite of prayer, they just say, his will can't be known, or the Devil did it. If they pray, and it works out in their favor, it is seen as proof that prayer worked. They are fooling themselves.

P.S. God did eventually save the Jews, mind you.

6 million did not get saved. There is no big daddy in the sky making everything nice. If he exists at all, then he's not all good, so why should we be all good?

I don't think evil can actually be quantified, though. God could no more get rid of evil than make everything good. It's a subjective quality. One person's evil is another person's good.

 

[§outh§tar]

Maybe, maybe not. There is some dude in Mexico that has himself crucified every Easter. He's going for 15 times, and he's up to 12 already.

That is not what I meant. I meant he died for our sins. Guess where sinners go? To hell. In hell, there is suffering. Now Jesus died for ALL our sins, meaning he suffered the suffering of ALL our hells, NOT including the anguish of separation from the Father. Hence, "Father, Father, why have You forsaken Me?".

Anyway, Christians have a stock answer for everything. When evil happens in spite of prayer, they just say, his will can't be known, or the Devil did it. If they pray, and it works out in their favor, it is seen as proof that prayer worked. They are fooling themselves.

It is patience. Say you had a 4 year old. And at the store, this child was insisting on getting some candy. Either you said yes, or you said no. Now if you gave that child candy later on (say when you get home) and the child says thank you, is he/she fooling himself because you did not oblige immediately? Would it not be foolishly arrogant to expect that an Almighty God be at your beck and call and answer immediately? Do you think He would do what you want Him to do? If it is NOT in His will, He will not do it. You know His will through His Holy Word.

6 million did not get saved. There is no big daddy in the sky making everything nice. If he exists at all, then he's not all good, so why should we be all good?

I think the above scenario should expain this.

I don't think evil can actually be quantified, though. God could no more get rid of evil than make everything good. It's a subjective quality. One person's evil is another person's good.

I think most people reading this should take a look here:
http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/march99.htm

 

[okinrus]

so are you asking; would you want your friend to tell you the truth and stop being
your friend, or lie to you while continuing to be your friend?

and what does "god's truthfulness" have to do with the topic at hand?

How can God create a world where sin is marginalized? Would this really be revealing the true nature of what rebellion against God is?

 

[Tiassa]

Battle of the Ants

Okinrus

Part of it may be that we are at this point quibbling specific points of faith. The "God" I acknowledge is quite apparently a different idea than the God you have faith in. I'm thinking that's why this--

Ok, skip the part about girlfriend to avoid personal arguments. Suppose you had a best friend. Would you rather your friend lie and say he wants to continue being your friend, or would you want the truth? You would want the truth, but you would rather the truth be that your friend likes you. God is always truthful and brings all to the truth. The darkness owes it's darkness to the light, yet the light owes to no one. This is similar to what Jesus said. If he did not do those deeds in the sight of the Pharisees, they would not sin. But God does not owe anything to darkness, remaining always who he is.

--doesn't make any sense to me. Don't get me wrong ... the analogous question makes perfect sense in and of itself, but the basic problem is this:

If someone asks--

Say I'm a Jew in a nazi concentration camp, and I ask God to save me. God doesn't. Wouldn't it therefor be reasonable to conclude that God wants me to be in the camp? I mean, if he didn't want me in the camp he would save me, right?

--and someone else responds--

I think it would be most appropriately phrased that God doesn't give a hoot one way or another. If God "wants" you in the concentration camp, it's because your presence in the camp is instrumental to whatever it is God actually cares about.

--and then someone else interjects with either--

This is untrue. For instance, suppose your in a relationship, and your girlfriend says "I don't like you." You don't want her to say that. But you also must allow her to say that because without allowing, truth never is said.

--or--

Suppose you had a best friend. Would you rather your friend lie and say he wants to continue being your friend, or would you want the truth? You would want the truth, but you would rather the truth be that your friend likes you. God is always truthful and brings all to the truth. The darkness owes it's darkness to the light, yet the light owes to no one. This is similar to what Jesus said. If he did not do those deeds in the sight of the Pharisees, they would not sin. But God does not owe anything to darkness, remaining always who he is.

--I just don't get the transition from B to C or D. (And anyone's welcome to charge that of the transition from question A to response B if they see fit.) But ....

I suppose it might be easier to state my response to Nasor's question, By the time it gets down to you suffering in a concentration camp, it's not about you.

God, whether the true source of all or a reduced shoebox-deity that must necessarily be good or just or something like that, simply does not take overt joy in "Nasor's suffering" in the concentration camp. That suffering is only important to God insofar as the conditions that bring it about are somehow necessary to the larger plan.

We must remember that good and evil as understood by human beings are merely that: good and evil as understood, and therefore defined and acted upon, by humans. Imperfect, idiotic, scampering, prudish, wussy humans.

In terms of God's implicit responsibility, perhaps the analogy of the ant might suffice.

When I was a kid, I learned to take pleasure in specific forms of destruction of other organisms. Salt on slugs, a stomp on bugs; spiders got set on fire as a personal loathing; I've even built a beach arena and held crab fights. And yes, I took pleasure in the suffering of other creatures. Live and learn. But among all those bugs I stomped on and enjoyed it ... I can't tell you how many thousands I've stepped on without knowing it. It's part of the way things are. I'm still responsible for the crushing, maiming, or outright destroying of those creatures, but really ... I could care less. I'm not even noticing those bugs. Sure, I don't torture other organisms anymore, but don't ever let me claim I don't kill the occasional bug. Or the flea powder I put on the cats when the occasion calls for it. Healthier for the cat insofar as its toxic or allergic risk is lower, but it kills the fleas over the course of days by dehydrating them. That's a f@cking terrible thing to do to a living organism. I mean, sure, the slugs are viscerally ... "Wow, look at it die!" But that's a matter of seconds or minutes. Days?

And I don't take pleasure in Jojo Flea's Exquisite Pain. Nor does God take pleasure when a child suffers, screams, gags, dreams of demons, cuts their wrists ... but hey, it's all part of the Necessary Plan.

And I'll raise a glass to James Doohan: If I could have Scotty beam the fleas off my cats and deposit them on some fleabag paradise-world (Tribbles, anyone?) I would. But I can't.

To the other, if God could undo the fall of Man directly ... well, He still wouldn't. And so the mothers weep, and the children howl and fade to black.

(Okay, that was a bit of a cheap shot, I admit. And trexploitation, even!)

That is not which is.
The only Word is Silence.
The only Meaning of that Word is not.
Thoughts are false.
Fatherhood is unity disguised as duality.
Peace implies war.
Power implies war.
Harmony implies war.
Victory implies war.
Glory implies war.
Foundation implies war.
Alas! for the Kingdom wherein all these are at war.

(Perdurabo)​

 

[okinrus]

We must remember that good and evil as understood by human beings are merely that: good and evil as understood, and therefore defined and acted upon, by humans. Imperfect, idiotic, scampering, prudish, wussy humans.

All evil is caused by our break in the relationship with God, and depending how great that break is, the more deadly the sin.(note that this is spiritual and does not necessary correspond with physical action). In the end there will be only our relationship or no relationship as the truth manifested completely will reveal all.

Yet for God to say "there can never be any concentration camps" would be removing this particular reflection of evil(mainly pride and anger) from physical reality.

Someone in the concentration camp carries the suffering and eventual death caused by greed, pride, and hatred. But without doing so, evil's true nature of destruction, division, and death is never revealed.

 

[PeepsOnFleas]

It is interesting to see how many of these posts used suffering and death as an example of God's indifference, but this is pre-supposing that suffering and death are "bad". In fact, they are not necessarily "bad" or "good" in God's eyes, they just "are".

When you step back and realise that the full picture is our constant cycle of life-times here on Earth (or perhaps elsewhere), forever and ever, then each death is not "the end", just the beginning of the next cycle of life.

As for this talk of "evil" and "good", these are completely human subjective values - nothing to do with God what-so-ever, She would never pass judgement on such things, even if He wanted to, because that would remove our free will, which is the greatest gift God has given us. Because of this, the following statement, whilst surprising to some, is perfectly true: Hitler went to Heaven.

Why? 'cos there was no where else to go.

 

[mario]

If 'total' free will is the ultimate gift from god to man then why don't we adopt that thinking in society? If kids wanted to grab a loaded gun or sharp knife and start attacking people why don't we just tell them..."I'd prefer you not do that billy, but I won't interfere with the greatest gift you possess...free will. Kill as many people as you like billy...it's for the greater good anyway." We seem to interfere with people's free will all the time. We throw them in jail even if they only THINK of murdering and maiming people before they actually get around to doing it. We are in effect turning people into robots by restricting their free will. We are so ungodly.

Why does god think that free will has to be limitless? He limits us in so many other ways...the way our bodies look...our intelligence...our health. God put restrictions and limitations on everything about us. Why can't he do that for free will as well? If all evil is, is rejecting god and everything he stands for then all we need to tell god that we don't like him is just ignore him...keep to yourself and go your merry way. You don't have to kill and torture and rape and go to extremes of pain and sorrow to make your point.

 

[Tiassa]

Someone in the concentration camp carries the suffering and eventual death caused by greed, pride, and hatred. But without doing so, evil's true nature of destruction, division, and death is never revealed.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

To be specific, well, I understand the gist of it, but find it absurd beyond the point of the mysterious ways of God.

• Why, in a world ne'er-intended for humans to know evil, and in a world in which God blesses every life yet none are satisfactory to His desire, does evil need to reveal itself so openly?

It's extraneous, inefficient.

I'm mowing the lawn later today. Let's think about this in theory:

• It's my lawn
• Therefore, I'm in control
• Therefore, I am responsible for what results of that lawn

At this point, a couple of editorial notes: First off, I say "in theory" because it's not my lawn, but rather a lawn whose ... care (chortle!) ... has been placed within the range of my responsibilities. Secondly, I don't think I'm reaching on the above points. Now, then:

• Many living organisms will be destroyed by various actions of that lawn care--
• insects and occasional frogs will be butchered; chemical-warfare genocide over a given area (e.g. fertilizer and moss retardant).
• --and there will be general artificial disruption of natural ecocycles.

Ladybug, Ladybug, why do you weep? For thine son, struck away by the roaring reaper who waits at my hand? 'Tis not evil that hath struck him down, for he is given for life and for beauty. Rejoice, Ladybug! You do not know the greater cause, the loving reality to which thy child was given.

What? I don't have any specific desire to kill anything. But genocidal wars are fought to bring me an apple or a loaf of bread. Is it evil? I'd say "No," but then again, I'm not the bug whose exoskeleton is melting off as the result of a chemical strike by the human plague.

Or what should I tell the cattle? "Don't fret. Don't worry. You're going to a far, far better rest than any you have ever known. And then I will cook you and eat you and pass you back to the earth. There is no evil coming to get you, only the glory of your purpose fulfilled!" And yet it's no great comfort to the cattle. Just ask anyone who has lived near a slaughterhouse. (Or, as one said to another as they entered the abbatoir: "Ha! My dad was wrong when he said I wouldn't amount to shit!")

What is the prayer of the frightened cattle?

Now I climb down from this truck
Oh dear Christ this really sucks
If I should die I'll be no yelper
But don't you dare make me into Hamburger Helper!​

(I would have tried one for chickens, but I don't want to think about rhyming for "nugget." I mean, there's always fugget, but therein lies a theological mystery.)

I reiterate:

I suppose it might be easier to state my response to Nasor's question, By the time it gets down to you suffering in a concentration camp, it's not about you.

God, whether the true source of all or a reduced shoebox-deity that must necessarily be good or just or something like that, simply does not take overt joy in "Nasor's suffering" in the concentration camp. That suffering is only important to God insofar as the conditions that bring it about are somehow necessary to the larger plan.

We must remember that good and evil as understood by human beings are merely that: good and evil as understood, and therefore defined and acted upon, by humans. Imperfect, idiotic, scampering, prudish, wussy humans.

(Tiassa)

And I raise a pipe to PeepsOnFleas--

As for this talk of "evil" and "good", these are completely human subjective values - nothing to do with God what-so-ever . . . .

Amen, woo-hoo, so mote it be, hallelujah, &c, &c, &c.

(Something about four and twenty blackbirds goes here.)

 

[okinrus]

Tiassa, how can you believe in a God that desires suffering? I know that God is willing to allow trial to trim and prune, willing to allow us to have a little pain when we see our own faults. But to say that a concentration camp is from God, is to accuse God. And where is the evidence? Did God say "I caused the concentration camp?" I only see a belief that God causes people to fall to bring unbelief.

But for every suffering that God does allow, we can grow closer to God. He gives us the opportunity to reject the world and choose him above the suffering and death, so that we may die to ourselves. Without the world, there would be no way we could reject. Without Satan's works, there would be no way to reject Satan's works. So God allows Satan's works within measure.